In article , Baz wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....

Nick, I think that we all respect your scientific knowledge, but many of
us can't understand it!
I think that you expect too much understanding from us of your obvious
knowledge. It is simple to you, but not for us.
I could describe to you how to make a mortice and tenon joint, or how to
replace a crankshaft in any petrol driven engine.
I doubt that you would understsnd any of it without a basic knowledge,
and the skills involved.

You have not made any posting that either deliberately misrepresented
what I said, or ignored the clear, explicit wording in favour of
something that I had obviously not said. So I am not counting you
among the trolls and idiots.

The distinction is NOT between fruit+vegetables and meat+fish, but
between fruit+pickles and all-other-foods. My memory was that the
main danger is from meat+fish, but one of the references posted
informed me that is NOT true and the main danger is from vegetables.
Seriously.

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

In article , Baz
wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....

Nick, I think that we all respect your scientific knowledge, but many
of us can't understand it!
I think that you expect too much understanding from us of your obvious
knowledge. It is simple to you, but not for us.
I could describe to you how to make a mortice and tenon joint, or how
to replace a crankshaft in any petrol driven engine.
I doubt that you would understsnd any of it without a basic knowledge,
and the skills involved.

You have not made any posting that either deliberately misrepresented
what I said, or ignored the clear, explicit wording in favour of
something that I had obviously not said. So I am not counting you
among the trolls and idiots.

I am glad to hear that.

The distinction is NOT between fruit+vegetables and meat+fish, but
between fruit+pickles and all-other-foods. My memory was that the
main danger is from meat+fish, but one of the references posted
informed me that is NOT true and the main danger is from vegetables.
Seriously.

I would definatly NOT try with meat+fish.

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I can't fill all the Kilners with fruit this year. I have 8X 2pint jars
done with soft fruit and later in the year perhaps pears.
I have a video of Ruth LaMotte bottling tomatoes, re-enacting the dig for
victory campaign. The way the tomatoes are ripening now, I can maybe fill
all the jars by the end of this month.

Thankyou, Nick, for clarification and all.
Baz

On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 12:50:17 +0100 (BST), Nick Maclaren wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

Were domestic pressure cookers easily available during the war? I
have a feeling that they may have existed before but like a lot of
things disappeared during and only reappeared in the early 50's.

I agree there has been some mis-information in this thread,
bottling/canning really combines several preservation processes
depending on what is being bottled/canned. Broadly these processes
are heat treatment, hermetic sealing and sugar/acidity level.

The heat treatment and sugar acid levels are interrelated in that if
you have high sugar (jams etc) or high acid level (ph4.6 according
to wikipedia) you don't need to have heat treatment above 100C. If
the sugar content is low / acidity ph4.6 then you ought to have
high temperature treatment and the way to do that is in a pressure
vessel of some sort.

Trying to use the food type to define the bottling process required
can lead to an incorrect process being used.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.co.uk:


Trying to use the food type to define the bottling process required
can lead to an incorrect process being used.


Yes Yes.
I have tried to get to the bottom of this.

Baz

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

Were domestic pressure cookers easily available during the war? I
have a feeling that they may have existed before but like a lot of
things disappeared during and only reappeared in the early 50's.

Dunno. That could well be - they certainly weren't something that
every house had, even in the 1960s.

I agree there has been some mis-information in this thread,
bottling/canning really combines several preservation processes
depending on what is being bottled/canned. Broadly these processes
are heat treatment, hermetic sealing and sugar/acidity level.

The heat treatment and sugar acid levels are interrelated in that if
you have high sugar (jams etc) or high acid level (ph4.6 according
to wikipedia) you don't need to have heat treatment above 100C. If
the sugar content is low / acidity ph4.6 then you ought to have
high temperature treatment and the way to do that is in a pressure
vessel of some sort.

Yes. Or salt, of course.

Trying to use the food type to define the bottling process required
can lead to an incorrect process being used.

Except that virtually all fruit grown in the UK have a fair amount
of acid. Even strawberries have SOME - we don't have any fruit
like bananas or avocados that are grown and eaten, that I can
think of.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 08/09/13 12:50, Nick Maclaren wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

As supporting evidence for that...

"Home Preservation of Fruit and Vegetables" by Fish.& Food,Min.of
Agriculture (Jul 1989) isbn 0112428649, first published in 1929

That's an intensely practical book, also giving enough
theory to enable the reader to understand why the practice
has evolved.

It has chapters on jams, jellies, marmalade, fruit cheeses &
butters, mincemeat & other fruit preserves, bottled fruit,
fruit syrups and squashes, vinegars, pickles, chutneys,
ketchup, drying & salting, freezing, storing fruit & vegetables.

(1) botulism is mentioned prominently, with appropriate warnings
(2) some jams, e.g. cherry have added citric/tartaric acid
(3) all the methods for vegetables are freezing or drying or
adding to chutney and marrow jam requires extra acid
(4) THERE ARE NO RECIPES FOR CANNING/BOTTLING VEGETABLES unless
acid or salt are present
(5) pressure cooking: 5lb for bottled fruit, 10lb for jam,
15lb for nothing
(6) despite the book's title, there is relatively little
vegetables - just freeze them or dry them

In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

As supporting evidence for that...

"Home Preservation of Fruit and Vegetables" by Fish.& Food,Min.of
Agriculture (Jul 1989) isbn 0112428649, first published in 1929

That's almost certainly an updated version of the same booklet.
Perhaps not even updated very much :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 08/09/13 15:27, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

As supporting evidence for that...

"Home Preservation of Fruit and Vegetables" by Fish.& Food,Min.of
Agriculture (Jul 1989) isbn 0112428649, first published in 1929

That's almost certainly an updated version of the same booklet.

From the forward... "In the sixty years since it was first
published by the Long Ashton Research Station[RIP] and MAFF
[it] has been revised and updated on many occasions. Encouraged
and supported by the National Federation of Women's Institutes..."

Perhaps not even updated very much :-)

Freezing is a "modern method" of preservation, and microwave
cookers shouldn't be used for jam, except for softening fruit.

But then how much of this has changed since 1929? The basics
were well understood by then.

In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:

I forgot to say "Thank you" for posting that data.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 08/09/13 15:44, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:

I forgot to say "Thank you" for posting that data.

You're welcome - it was my pleasure to re-acquaint
myself with the book. Things like using a trivet (in a
saucepan of hot water) to keep the glass off the
bottom, but if you don't have a trivet then you can
use rolled up newspaper. Really appeals to the "this
is what you are trying to achieve; you can do it via
conventional and unconventional mechanisms" that I
see in the best engineering.

Must try and make some sauerkraut...
(Keep the cabbage at 21C-27C for 2-3 weeks; rats - should
have done it last month!)