If so, what's the best way to propogate? - I realise it might be years or
even decades before it resemble something taller you could buy from a
nursery, but i wouldn't mind giving it a go if it's possible

On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 21:12:29 +0100, Phil L wrote:

If so, what's the best way to propogate? - I realise it might be years
or even decades before it resemble something taller you could buy from a
nursery, but i wouldn't mind giving it a go if it's possible

Depends on the Acer. Acer rubrum, no. Acer cappidocicum, yes.

If what you're talking about is some Acer palmatum cultivar, the answer
is equally variable. 'Orange Dream' is quite successful, as is
'Bloodgood'. 'Butterfly', not so much.

It used to be thought that cutting grown Japanese Maples often failed
suddenly several years on after striking. But the Dutch have come up
with a method that seems to avoid this.

Still there are not many for which cuttings work, which is why you only
see a few cultivars of cutting grown palmatums in the stores, the rest
are grafted. And even in the best of cases it's quite difficult, we used
to just answer your question with a straight "no". Japanese maple
cultivars are almost always propagated by grafting, which is cheaper and
far more reliable than cuttings.

-E

--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

"Emery Davis" wrote

Phil L wrote:

If so, what's the best way to propogate? - I realise it might be years
or even decades before it resemble something taller you could buy from a
nursery, but i wouldn't mind giving it a go if it's possible

Depends on the Acer. Acer rubrum, no. Acer cappidocicum, yes.

If what you're talking about is some Acer palmatum cultivar, the answer
is equally variable. 'Orange Dream' is quite successful, as is
'Bloodgood'. 'Butterfly', not so much.

It used to be thought that cutting grown Japanese Maples often failed
suddenly several years on after striking. But the Dutch have come up
with a method that seems to avoid this.

Still there are not many for which cuttings work, which is why you only
see a few cultivars of cutting grown palmatums in the stores, the rest
are grafted. And even in the best of cases it's quite difficult, we used
to just answer your question with a straight "no". Japanese maple
cultivars are almost always propagated by grafting, which is cheaper and
far more reliable than cuttings.


Do you know what they use a stock for the grafting?
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:42:17 +0100, Bob Hobden wrote:

Do you know what they use a stock for the grafting?

I do. It's not a happy answer.

There is no standard understock in the business, as in a clone produce
from tissue culture or some other method. In part the reason for this is
no doubt because cuttings are hard to root, but also because certain
cultivars, or examples of the species, produce prolific seed with close
to 100% germination rates. 'Sango kaku' in one such and is often used as
a seed source. Reputable producers graft red cultivars to red understock
seedlings which produces stronger red colour from the scions.

The problem is that Acer palmatum seedlings are extremely polymorphic.
So the understock may be anywhere from a weak dwarf (or a healthy dwarf)
for a very vigorous plant. This obviously effects the top, so that you
have only an approximate idea of how individual cultivars will perform.

Further, the seed-grown understock varies widely in hardiness. So even a
hardier cultivar like 'Eddisbury' is vulnerable because the understock is
less hardy. (This happened to me where the understock died of cold, while
the top was fine).

But the worst is this. Understock producers (and many grafters make
there own) grow thousands of seedlings year after year in the same soil.
Over time the soil becomes infected with verticillium, and so do the
seedlings. These are coddled along at the producer and then at the
nursery, with essentially perfect conditions. But as soon as they get
home to the consumer, they get stressed, which encourages the wilt.

Many of these plants will only live for 2-3 years at the consumer's home.



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

"Emery Davis" wrote

Bob Hobden wrote:

Do you know what they use a stock for the grafting?

I do. It's not a happy answer.

There is no standard understock in the business, as in a clone produce
from tissue culture or some other method. In part the reason for this is
no doubt because cuttings are hard to root, but also because certain
cultivars, or examples of the species, produce prolific seed with close
to 100% germination rates. 'Sango kaku' in one such and is often used as
a seed source. Reputable producers graft red cultivars to red understock
seedlings which produces stronger red colour from the scions.

The problem is that Acer palmatum seedlings are extremely polymorphic.
So the understock may be anywhere from a weak dwarf (or a healthy dwarf)
for a very vigorous plant. This obviously effects the top, so that you
have only an approximate idea of how individual cultivars will perform.

Further, the seed-grown understock varies widely in hardiness. So even a
hardier cultivar like 'Eddisbury' is vulnerable because the understock is
less hardy. (This happened to me where the understock died of cold, while
the top was fine).

But the worst is this. Understock producers (and many grafters make
there own) grow thousands of seedlings year after year in the same soil.
Over time the soil becomes infected with verticillium, and so do the
seedlings. These are coddled along at the producer and then at the
nursery, with essentially perfect conditions. But as soon as they get
home to the consumer, they get stressed, which encourages the wilt.

Many of these plants will only live for 2-3 years at the consumer's home.



I wonder what would happen using a Sycamore (Acer pseudoplatanus) seedling
as the rootstock?
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 09:37:12 +0100, "Bob Hobden"
wrote:

"Emery Davis" wrote

Bob Hobden wrote:

Do you know what they use a stock for the grafting?

I do. It's not a happy answer.

There is no standard understock in the business, as in a clone produce
from tissue culture or some other method. In part the reason for this is
no doubt because cuttings are hard to root, but also because certain
cultivars, or examples of the species, produce prolific seed with close
to 100% germination rates. 'Sango kaku' in one such and is often used as
a seed source. Reputable producers graft red cultivars to red understock
seedlings which produces stronger red colour from the scions.

The problem is that Acer palmatum seedlings are extremely polymorphic.
So the understock may be anywhere from a weak dwarf (or a healthy dwarf)
for a very vigorous plant. This obviously effects the top, so that you
have only an approximate idea of how individual cultivars will perform.

Further, the seed-grown understock varies widely in hardiness. So even a
hardier cultivar like 'Eddisbury' is vulnerable because the understock is
less hardy. (This happened to me where the understock died of cold, while
the top was fine).

But the worst is this. Understock producers (and many grafters make
there own) grow thousands of seedlings year after year in the same soil.
Over time the soil becomes infected with verticillium, and so do the
seedlings. These are coddled along at the producer and then at the
nursery, with essentially perfect conditions. But as soon as they get
home to the consumer, they get stressed, which encourages the wilt.

Many of these plants will only live for 2-3 years at the consumer's home.



I wonder what would happen using a Sycamore (Acer pseudoplatanus) seedling
as the rootstock?

The garden next door to me has a huge Acer that looks like a Sycamore
with red leaves. There are a lot of seedlings growing in both our
gardens that have normal green leaves. I've not seen any mature
Sycamore trees in the area.

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com

EasyNN-plus More than just a neural network http://www.easynn.com

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 09:37:12 +0100, Bob Hobden wrote:

I wonder what would happen using a Sycamore (Acer pseudoplatanus)
seedling as the rootstock?

Wrong section of the genus. Grafting inter-section is a dicey business
in Acer and doesn't usually work. This said, pseudoplatanus is sometimes
considered "universal understock" so it might work once in a while. (For
grafting species that don't have a suitable in-section understock
available, pseudoplatanus is sometimes used, but there is a very high
failure rate).

Acer is a complicated species, you can look at the wiki page to get some
idea of this but they've over-complicated by including extinct species
and is neither accurate nor up to date taxonomy-wise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Acer_species

Before anyone asks: some of the "evergreen" species (e.g. sempervirens)
are deciduous in our climate, some synonyms are double listed (e.g.
ceriferum=robustum) and some species are named 20 years out of date (e.g.
nigrum has been called saccharum ssp nigrum since de Jong's 1994
classification anyway)



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 22/07/2015 10:28, Emery Davis wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 21:12:29 +0100, Phil L wrote:

If so, what's the best way to propogate? - I realise it might be years
or even decades before it resemble something taller you could buy from a
nursery, but i wouldn't mind giving it a go if it's possible

Depends on the Acer. Acer rubrum, no. Acer cappidocicum, yes.

If what you're talking about is some Acer palmatum cultivar, the answer
is equally variable. 'Orange Dream' is quite successful, as is
'Bloodgood'. 'Butterfly', not so much.

It used to be thought that cutting grown Japanese Maples often failed
suddenly several years on after striking. But the Dutch have come up
with a method that seems to avoid this.

Still there are not many for which cuttings work, which is why you only
see a few cultivars of cutting grown palmatums in the stores, the rest
are grafted. And even in the best of cases it's quite difficult, we used
to just answer your question with a straight "no". Japanese maple
cultivars are almost always propagated by grafting, which is cheaper and
far more reliable than cuttings.

-E

Out of mild curiosity, has any tried tissue culture for propagating
maples (particularly Japanese maples)?

--
SRH

On 23/07/2015 09:54, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 09:37:12 +0100, "Bob Hobden"
wrote:

"Emery Davis" wrote

Bob Hobden wrote:

Do you know what they use a stock for the grafting?

I do. It's not a happy answer.

There is no standard understock in the business, as in a clone produce
from tissue culture or some other method. In part the reason for this is
no doubt because cuttings are hard to root, but also because certain
cultivars, or examples of the species, produce prolific seed with close
to 100% germination rates. 'Sango kaku' in one such and is often used as
a seed source. Reputable producers graft red cultivars to red understock
seedlings which produces stronger red colour from the scions.

The problem is that Acer palmatum seedlings are extremely polymorphic.
So the understock may be anywhere from a weak dwarf (or a healthy dwarf)
for a very vigorous plant. This obviously effects the top, so that you
have only an approximate idea of how individual cultivars will perform.

Further, the seed-grown understock varies widely in hardiness. So even a
hardier cultivar like 'Eddisbury' is vulnerable because the understock is
less hardy. (This happened to me where the understock died of cold, while
the top was fine).

But the worst is this. Understock producers (and many grafters make
there own) grow thousands of seedlings year after year in the same soil.
Over time the soil becomes infected with verticillium, and so do the
seedlings. These are coddled along at the producer and then at the
nursery, with essentially perfect conditions. But as soon as they get
home to the consumer, they get stressed, which encourages the wilt.

Many of these plants will only live for 2-3 years at the consumer's home.



I wonder what would happen using a Sycamore (Acer pseudoplatanus) seedling
as the rootstock?

The garden next door to me has a huge Acer that looks like a Sycamore
with red leaves. There are a lot of seedlings growing in both our
gardens that have normal green leaves. I've not seen any mature
Sycamore trees in the area.

Steve

Depending on your knowledge of maples it may well be a sycamore with red
(purple) leaves, such as A. pseudoplatanus var. purpureum. Or it could
be one of the several red/purple leaved cultivars of Norway maple, which
are more commonly planted. That the seedlings are all green-leaved
suggests to me that it's the sycamore - the Norway maple cultivars
produce (probably not 100% reliably) coloured leaved seedlings, while I
could well believe that var. purpureum doesn't produce purple leaves as
a sapling.

--
SRH

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:07:16 +0100, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

Out of mild curiosity, has any tried tissue culture for propagating
maples (particularly Japanese maples)?

It's done for rubrum and x freemani, which are an important nursery
crop. Haven't heard of it for palmatums, too easy and cheap to grow from
seed. If you figure 1 yr grafts are worth perhaps 3 pounds in quantity,
it's difficult to add much cost to the understock.



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:16:09 +0100, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

The garden next door to me has a huge Acer that looks like a Sycamore
with red leaves. There are a lot of seedlings growing in both our
gardens that have normal green leaves. I've not seen any mature
Sycamore trees in the area.

Steve

Depending on your knowledge of maples it may well be a sycamore with red
(purple) leaves, such as A. pseudoplatanus var. purpureum. Or it could
be one of the several red/purple leaved cultivars of Norway maple, which
are more commonly planted. That the seedlings are all green-leaved
suggests to me that it's the sycamore - the Norway maple cultivars
produce (probably not 100% reliably) coloured leaved seedlings, while I
could well believe that var. purpureum doesn't produce purple leaves as
a sapling.


You're right, seedlings of var purpureum are very variable and don't all
have the purple undersides. But the best ones do: a friend brought me a
wild one from Brittany last year, it was only a couple of inches high but
already a lovely dark purple.


--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

"Emery Davis" wrote

Bob Hobden wrote:

I wonder what would happen using a Sycamore (Acer pseudoplatanus)
seedling as the rootstock?

Wrong section of the genus. Grafting inter-section is a dicey business
in Acer and doesn't usually work. This said, pseudoplatanus is sometimes
considered "universal understock" so it might work once in a while. (For
grafting species that don't have a suitable in-section understock
available, pseudoplatanus is sometimes used, but there is a very high
failure rate).

Acer is a complicated species, you can look at the wiki page to get some
idea of this but they've over-complicated by including extinct species
and is neither accurate nor up to date taxonomy-wise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Acer_species

Before anyone asks: some of the "evergreen" species (e.g. sempervirens)
are deciduous in our climate, some synonyms are double listed (e.g.
ceriferum=robustum) and some species are named 20 years out of date (e.g.
nigrum has been called saccharum ssp nigrum since de Jong's 1994
classification anyway)


What affect does that have on the final tree? Does using it as a rootstock
make the maple become quick growing and eventually larger than it should?
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:36:40 +0100, Bob Hobden wrote:

"Emery Davis" wrote

Bob Hobden wrote:

I wonder what would happen using a Sycamore (Acer pseudoplatanus)
seedling as the rootstock?

Wrong section of the genus. Grafting inter-section is a dicey business
in Acer and doesn't usually work. This said, pseudoplatanus is
sometimes considered "universal understock" so it might work once in a
while. (For grafting species that don't have a suitable in-section
understock available, pseudoplatanus is sometimes used, but there is a
very high failure rate).
[]
What affect does that have on the final tree? Does using it as a
rootstock make the maple become quick growing and eventually larger than
it should?

If you could get a palmatum cultivar to take on sycamore understock, it
would in all likelyhood be a weak and short-lived plant. Almost
certainly not larger, since the two are not really compatible.

Then again I don't know anyone who's bothered to try, so who knows?

FWIW seed grown palmatum understock is so cheap and easy that anything
from the palmata section is grafted to it. So if you buy an Acer
japonicum cultivar, or something like Acer shirasawanum 'Aureum', or even
oliverianum if you're adventuresome, it will have the same palmatum
rootstock as any Japanese Maple cultivar.

The upshot of all this is: buy your Acer tree from a reputable nursery
like Hippopottering, Junker, Mallet Court, etc. If you buy from a "big
box" you really get what you pay for...



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

"Phil L" wrote in message
...
If so, what's the best way to propogate? - I realise it might be years or
even decades before it resemble something taller you could buy from a
nursery, but i wouldn't mind giving it a go if it's possible


After reading the help offered, I don't think I'll bother, I'm having enough
trouble with fuchsias which it seems are child's play, except for me.
My chances of getting an acer to do my bidding seems about as likely as
nailing a jelly to the ceiling.

Cheers all!