Hi All
I'm trying to determine why our viburnam has died, in somewhat spectacular fashion

This viburnam was probably 30+ years old. It had three or four main trunks coming from a single crown. We live on the South Coast of the UK.

The tree has mostly seemed healthy, although I had previously noticed that one of the smaller trunks appeared poorly. Also some of the upper smaller branched appeared to have died. However a couple of months ago I tugged on one of the smaller main trunks, and it came away at the base!

A week or so ago the whole tree fell down - luckily no damage done. It has a rose bush intertwined with it and that may have cushioned the fall somewhat. It has been fairly windy here, but not extremely so.

I am concerned to find out whether it is something like Honey Fungus (don't think so), some other fungus, or something else that has caused this death.. Understanding this will obviously affect what I replace it with, and what I do to the remaining crown etc.

I have taken several pictures, these can be seen he

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/viburnam

My main observations a

- Most of the wood of the crown, and the lower part of most of the main trunks, have gone 'spongy'. One of the photos shows a cross-section of a good branch next to that of the crown
- From some tapping at the main roots I think that at least some of them are similarly spongy, with the rest of the roots seeming to be sound
- You can see that there are some good-looking shoots coming from around the crown
- There is evidence of slight fungal growth - some white lacy areas. But I cannot see any fungal rhizomes or anything like that
- There are a couple of ?cankers? or ?Galls?, looking like the top of a mushroom, but 'woody'. The largest of these is about 4" across. I have taken a photo of this separately
- There are deep cracks running up one or two the trunks
- This my or may not be relevant but if you get close to the closely there is a slight fecal smell. I had noticed this before in wet weather but since we have put horse manure down (for the nearby rose), and there are also drains running near, have not paid it any attention before. I have read about some pests who cause such a smell though
- I did see a fair few wood-louse type creatures crawling around the crown.. I think they are just living off the rotting wood though, rather than causing the problem. No other obvious insect infestation
- Most of the leaves were healthy; perhaps a few have been a bit deformed. No major 'being eaten' damage that I can see.

I did wonder if this is just waterlogging - the crown has a bit of a hole in it, and the tree was a bit top-heavy with the branches swaying in the wind.

Thanks for any thoughts and insights!

Jon N

On 03/10/2020 23:52, Jon Nicoll wrote:
Hi All
I'm trying to determine why our viburnam has died, in somewhat spectacular fashion

This viburnam was probably 30+ years old. It had three or four main trunks coming from a single crown. We live on the South Coast of the UK.

The tree has mostly seemed healthy, although I had previously noticed that one of the smaller trunks appeared poorly. Also some of the upper smaller branched appeared to have died. However a couple of months ago I tugged on one of the smaller main trunks, and it came away at the base!

A week or so ago the whole tree fell down - luckily no damage done. It has a rose bush intertwined with it and that may have cushioned the fall somewhat. It has been fairly windy here, but not extremely so.

I am concerned to find out whether it is something like Honey Fungus (don't think so), some other fungus, or something else that has caused this death. Understanding this will obviously affect what I replace it with, and what I do to the remaining crown etc.

I have taken several pictures, these can be seen he

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/viburnam

My main observations a

- Most of the wood of the crown, and the lower part of most of the main trunks, have gone 'spongy'. One of the photos shows a cross-section of a good branch next to that of the crown
- From some tapping at the main roots I think that at least some of them are similarly spongy, with the rest of the roots seeming to be sound
- You can see that there are some good-looking shoots coming from around the crown
- There is evidence of slight fungal growth - some white lacy areas. But I cannot see any fungal rhizomes or anything like that
- There are a couple of ?cankers? or ?Galls?, looking like the top of a mushroom, but 'woody'. The largest of these is about 4" across. I have taken a photo of this separately
- There are deep cracks running up one or two the trunks
- This my or may not be relevant but if you get close to the closely there is a slight fecal smell. I had noticed this before in wet weather but since we have put horse manure down (for the nearby rose), and there are also drains running near, have not paid it any attention before. I have read about some pests who cause such a smell though
- I did see a fair few wood-louse type creatures crawling around the crown. I think they are just living off the rotting wood though, rather than causing the problem. No other obvious insect infestation
- Most of the leaves were healthy; perhaps a few have been a bit deformed. No major 'being eaten' damage that I can see.

I did wonder if this is just waterlogging - the crown has a bit of a hole in it, and the tree was a bit top-heavy with the branches swaying in the wind.

Thanks for any thoughts and insights!

Jon N

Looks like my plum trees. Every year I find the latest fungus on some
stem or other with the wood above it dead and rotting, lop it off, and
it grows back from the base again.

When I bought the house in 93 there was a cut down greengage stump. Now
its bearing lots of fruit and is 20ft tall.

Fungus eats trees. There must be a hundred plus species...yeah I had
honey fungus at one point but I cut down all the trees in that part if
the garden and it never reappeared.

Now I have three shaggy inkcaps in an isolated piece of lawn that has
never ever had any fungi before. No, I don't understand it, either.
But butter bacon fat and garlic are waiting for them when they are old
enough and big enough...

I think you get fungus if the bark gets damaged in any way, and once
there, if its the right sort it just kills everything by tapping into
the sap bearing channels. So roots survive, but anything above the
fungus does not.

If the root is healthy it might be worth leaving it to produce new shoots.


--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

On 03/10/2020 23:52, Jon Nicoll wrote:
Hi All
I'm trying to determine why our viburnam has died, in somewhat spectacular fashion

This viburnam was probably 30+ years old. It had three or four main trunks coming from a single crown. We live on the South Coast of the UK.

The tree has mostly seemed healthy, although I had previously noticed that one of the smaller trunks appeared poorly. Also some of the upper smaller branched appeared to have died. However a couple of months ago I tugged on one of the smaller main trunks, and it came away at the base!

A week or so ago the whole tree fell down - luckily no damage done. It has a rose bush intertwined with it and that may have cushioned the fall somewhat. It has been fairly windy here, but not extremely so.

I am concerned to find out whether it is something like Honey Fungus (don't think so), some other fungus, or something else that has caused this death. Understanding this will obviously affect what I replace it with, and what I do to the remaining crown etc.

I have taken several pictures, these can be seen he

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/viburnam

My main observations a

- Most of the wood of the crown, and the lower part of most of the main trunks, have gone 'spongy'. One of the photos shows a cross-section of a good branch next to that of the crown
- From some tapping at the main roots I think that at least some of them are similarly spongy, with the rest of the roots seeming to be sound
- You can see that there are some good-looking shoots coming from around the crown
- There is evidence of slight fungal growth - some white lacy areas. But I cannot see any fungal rhizomes or anything like that
- There are a couple of ?cankers? or ?Galls?, looking like the top of a mushroom, but 'woody'. The largest of these is about 4" across. I have taken a photo of this separately
- There are deep cracks running up one or two the trunks
- This my or may not be relevant but if you get close to the closely there is a slight fecal smell. I had noticed this before in wet weather but since we have put horse manure down (for the nearby rose), and there are also drains running near, have not paid it any attention before. I have read about some pests who cause such a smell though
- I did see a fair few wood-louse type creatures crawling around the crown. I think they are just living off the rotting wood though, rather than causing the problem. No other obvious insect infestation
- Most of the leaves were healthy; perhaps a few have been a bit deformed. No major 'being eaten' damage that I can see.

I did wonder if this is just waterlogging - the crown has a bit of a hole in it, and the tree was a bit top-heavy with the branches swaying in the wind.

Thanks for any thoughts and insights!

The spongy wood is a bit puzzling, but I wonder if the problem is
Phytophthora:
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=542

This is becoming more a problem in the south and is spreading. Viburnum
is susceptible to it. As the RHS article states, it can infect a wide
range of plants, is associated with waterlogged conditions, and in my
experience can appear very quickly and kill a plant within a few weeks.
If you suspect it, you will have to replace the viburnum with something
which is not susceptible to Phytophthora.

--

Jeff

In article ,
Jon Nicoll wrote:
I'm trying to determine why our viburnam has died, in somewhat
spectacular fashion

A bracket fungus - my books are a bit inaccessible at present, but something
like dryad's saddle - there are quite a lot, however, and identifying fungi
precisely is seriously tricky. Many of them (probably that one) do not kill
the host and, if it had been a species that is adapted to the loss of its
heartwood(like oak), it would still be fine (but hollowed out, stag-headed
etc.) A large horse chestnut just across the road had been felled because
of a similar issue (but different cause). Suckering trees will respond by
forming a group (or even thicket) of shoots, provided the roots are alive.

The symptoms are wildly unlike either honey fungus or phytophthora, and the
Web and media do us no service by banging on about those. They are just two
examples of many thousands of parasitic fungi and microorganisms that are
common in the UK.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 04/10/2020 04:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Now I have three shaggy inkcaps in an isolated piece of lawn that has
never ever had any fungi before. No, I don't understand it, either.
But butter bacon fat and garlic are waiting for them when they are old
enough and big enough...

Edible provided you don't drink alcohol at the same time. They contain
that basis of anatabuse which can make it unpleasant if you do.

This time of year all the fungi respond the the first frosts with
fruiting bodies and annoyingly the ones in my lawn are yellow stainers
rather than proper edible mushrooms. I have plenty of other species but
none of them are remote edible or apetising to look at.

I think you get fungus if the bark gets damaged in any way, and once
there, if its the right sort it just kills everything by tapping into
the sap bearing channels. So roots survive, but anything above the
fungus does not.

I can't think of fungi specific to viburnums but based on the most
common cause of trouble in waterlogged ground phytophthora seems plausible.

https://www.rhs.org.uk/Advice/profile?pid=542

If the root is healthy it might be worth leaving it to produce new shoots.

OTOH it may be the roots where it originated.
A search on the RHS plant disease page might yield something.



--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 04/10/2020 10:41, Martin Brown wrote:
On 04/10/2020 04:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Now I have three shaggy inkcaps in an isolated piece of lawn that has
never ever had any fungi before. No, I don't understand it, either.
But butter bacon fat and garlic are waiting for them when they are old
enough and big enough...

Edible provided you don't drink alcohol at the same time. They contain
that basis of anatabuse which can make it unpleasant if you do.

No. I am taking about shaggy caps. (lawyers wigs)

https://gallowaywildfoods.com/shaggy...ion-edibility/

I think they have the most delicious and delicate flavour bar none.
Never commercially available because they auto digest in hours

The antabuse ones are the 'common' inkcap


This time of year all the fungi respond the the first frosts with
fruiting bodies and annoyingly the ones in my lawn are yellow stainers
rather than proper edible mushrooms. I have plenty of other species but
none of them are remote edible or apetising to look at.

I found one small field mushroom...

I think you get fungus if the bark gets damaged in any way, and once
there, if its the right sort it just kills everything by tapping into
the sap bearing channels. So roots survive, but anything above the
fungus does not.

I can't think of fungi specific to viburnums but based on the most
common cause of trouble in waterlogged ground phytophthora seems plausible.

https://www.rhs.org.uk/Advice/profile?pid=542

If the root is healthy it might be worth leaving it to produce new
shoots.

OTOH it may be the roots where it originated.
A search on the RHS plant disease page might yield something.





--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

On 04/10/2020 10:22, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Jon Nicoll wrote:
I'm trying to determine why our viburnam has died, in somewhat
spectacular fashion

The symptoms are wildly unlike either honey fungus or phytophthora, and the
Web and media do us no service by banging on about those.

I am afraid a comment the OP made - and I missed at first reading -
/does/ suggest Phytophthora. He stated "There are deep cracks running up
one or two the trunks".

In June last year I had a Grevillea rosmarinifolia die within two weeks.
It had been in the ground for six years and had been growing very well,
being about 150 cm high and across. It appeared to die by drying out, as
the flowers and even some of the leaves were shrivelled. Remember that
this is a plant from SE Australia, well used to very hot and dry
conditions. (One I had previously growing at another garden shrugged off
the extreme heat of the "noughties" and grew to 350 x 350 cm. It was
still growing well when we moved.)

The plant I had which died showed one particular condition which puzzled
me, and that was deep longitudinal cracks along its trunks:
https://ibb.co/TH9Nfnh

When I asked about this with someone I know at the Royal Botanic
Gardens, Sydney, he replied:
"... in an Australian context I would put this down to attack by a root
pathogen, and in this country the most likely culprit would be
Phytophthora cinnamomi... In the UK context it could be a different
pathogen of course, but the suddenness of attack and the stem split is
reminiscent of ‘Pc’ as it is often called here. Basically the
pathogen, the spores of which are borne in water and soil, infects the
roots (often at times when the plant is under stress from other causes)
and blocks the water-conducting tissues of the roots, leading to sudden
dehydration, sudden wilting/browning of foliage, and (sometimes) stem
splits as the tissues are denied water"

--

Jeff

On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 1:29:26 PM UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 04/10/2020 10:22, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Jon Nicoll wrote:
I'm trying to determine why our viburnam has died, in somewhat
spectacular fashion

The symptoms are wildly unlike either honey fungus or phytophthora, and the
Web and media do us no service by banging on about those.


(Nick) Thanks for the thoughts, but I'm puzzled about your Bracket Fungus idea.
- I can't see any Bracket Fungus (possibility of one tiny bit). The object I
am calling a 'gall' is not a fungus, I am pretty sure. It's quite woody
- From my readig, Bracket fungus lives on dying wood, but doesn't cause the
dying.
Can you explain a bit more? Thanks


I am afraid a comment the OP made - and I missed at first reading -
/does/ suggest Phytophthora. He stated "There are deep cracks running up
one or two the trunks".

I'm not sure how similar the cracks in your photo are to those on my
Viburnam. Unfortunately I can't take any more photos, I've got rid of the tree.
Phytophthora was my initial best guess as well, but would it cause the large-
scale sponginess of the tree and roots I am seeing?

J^n

In June last year I had a Grevillea rosmarinifolia die within two weeks.
It had been in the ground for six years and had been growing very well,
being about 150 cm high and across. It appeared to die by drying out, as
the flowers and even some of the leaves were shrivelled. Remember that
this is a plant from SE Australia, well used to very hot and dry
conditions. (One I had previously growing at another garden shrugged off
the extreme heat of the "noughties" and grew to 350 x 350 cm. It was
still growing well when we moved.)

The plant I had which died showed one particular condition which puzzled
me, and that was deep longitudinal cracks along its trunks:
https://ibb.co/TH9Nfnh

When I asked about this with someone I know at the Royal Botanic
Gardens, Sydney, he replied:
"... in an Australian context I would put this down to attack by a root
pathogen, and in this country the most likely culprit would be
Phytophthora cinnamomi... In the UK context it could be a different
pathogen of course, but the suddenness of attack and the stem split is
reminiscent of ‘Pc’ as it is often called here. Basically the
pathogen, the spores of which are borne in water and soil, infects the
roots (often at times when the plant is under stress from other causes)
and blocks the water-conducting tissues of the roots, leading to sudden
dehydration, sudden wilting/browning of foliage, and (sometimes) stem
splits as the tissues are denied water"

--

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 04/10/2020 10:22, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Jon Nicoll wrote:
I'm trying to determine why our viburnam has died, in somewhat
spectacular fashion

The symptoms are wildly unlike either honey fungus or phytophthora, and the
Web and media do us no service by banging on about those.

I am afraid a comment the OP made - and I missed at first reading -
/does/ suggest Phytophthora. He stated "There are deep cracks running up
one or two the trunks".

But phytophthora attacks only living tissue, and spongy heartwood
is an almost certain indicator of fungal attack. The vigorous shoot
also argues against phytophthora, because that generally kills first
and subsequent fungal attack destroys the dead plant.

Verticillium and other fungi can also cause deep cracks in bark,
incidentally. I have a Cotinus coggryia with all of its stems down
to the heartwood for half their circumference, and it has been like
that for many years (it's Verticillium).


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I have just looked back, and "Most of the leaves were healthy; perhaps
a few have been a bit deformed." is stronger than I remembered, and is
flatly incompatible with Phytophthora (or Verticillium).


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
wrote:

(Nick) Thanks for the thoughts, but I'm puzzled about your Bracket Fungus idea.
- I can't see any Bracket Fungus (possibility of one tiny bit). The object I
am calling a 'gall' is not a fungus, I am pretty sure. It's quite woody
- From my readig, Bracket fungus lives on dying wood, but doesn't cause the
dying.
Can you explain a bit more? Thanks

Most bracket fungi ARE woody - you can even use them as fuel. Your
description indicated that the fungus hadn't actually killed the
plant directly - just caused it to fall over - which is very typical
of a heartwood-destroying fungus. As I said, some plants (like oak)
are adapted to such things, and often live longer with no heartwood
left in their trunk than while there still was some.

Fungi like coral fungus live on dead sapwood, but many others (like
at least many bracket fungi) live on heartwood (instead or as well).
The thing to remember is that, in most broad-leaved, non-tropical
woody plants, heartwood IS dead. Most conifers and some tropical
plants are different.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 04/10/2020 17:41, Nick Maclaren wrote:
I have just looked back, and "Most of the leaves were healthy; perhaps
a few have been a bit deformed." is stronger than I remembered, and is
flatly incompatible with Phytophthora (or Verticillium).

Yes, it doesn't look like Phytophthora or Verticlillium if the leaves
are healthy. I agree the spongy heartwood looks like a fungal attack.
Perhaps the plant was infected with more than one pathogen.

--

Jeff

On 04/10/2020 17:38, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 04/10/2020 10:22, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Jon Nicoll wrote:
I'm trying to determine why our viburnam has died, in somewhat
spectacular fashion

The symptoms are wildly unlike either honey fungus or phytophthora, and the
Web and media do us no service by banging on about those.

I am afraid a comment the OP made - and I missed at first reading -
/does/ suggest Phytophthora. He stated "There are deep cracks running up
one or two the trunks".

But phytophthora attacks only living tissue, and spongy heartwood
is an almost certain indicator of fungal attack. The vigorous shoot
also argues against phytophthora, because that generally kills first
and subsequent fungal attack destroys the dead plant.

Verticillium and other fungi can also cause deep cracks in bark,
incidentally. I have a Cotinus coggryia with all of its stems down
to the heartwood for half their circumference, and it has been like
that for many years (it's Verticillium).

If the Grevillea was killed by either Phytophthora or Verticillium then
I made a hurried mistake replacing it with a Cotinus! I'll dig it up
when it's dormant, wash off the soil, and put it in a pot for a couple
of years. Not sure what I'll put in it's place; maybe a conifer.

--

Jeff

On 04/10/2020 16:45, wrote:
On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 1:29:26 PM UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:

I'm not sure how similar the cracks in your photo are to those on my
Viburnam. Unfortunately I can't take any more photos, I've got rid of the tree.
Phytophthora was my initial best guess as well, but would it cause the large-
scale sponginess of the tree and roots I am seeing?

No. The sponginess will be due to a fungus. Also, as Nick has noted, if
the leaves were pretty much untouched, it won't be Phytophthora or
Verticillium.

--

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

If the Grevillea was killed by either Phytophthora or Verticillium then
I made a hurried mistake replacing it with a Cotinus! I'll dig it up
when it's dormant, wash off the soil, and put it in a pot for a couple
of years. Not sure what I'll put in it's place; maybe a conifer.

I wouldn't worry - it's had Verticillium for many years (probably
over a decade), and the main effect has to be keep its growth
down so that its shoots are only a couple of feet (rather than
six!). And, assuming the pathogen was in the soil, it took thirty
years for it to become infected. Cotinus are much tougher than
Grevillia.

Conifers are prone to fungal infection, too, and there's no way for
an ordinary person to identify such pathogens precisely. Whatever
you plant will be a risk.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.