On 26 Jun 2003 20:58:05 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


They are one hell of a lot safer for humans. The lethal dose of copper
is something over a gram, and a minor overdose will rarely cause long
term damage. Copper is an essential trace element, after all.

The Dutch are concerned about the high levels of copper in the ground
water.
--
martin

In article ,
martin wrote:
On 26 Jun 2003 20:58:05 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

They are one hell of a lot safer for humans. The lethal dose of copper
is something over a gram, and a minor overdose will rarely cause long
term damage. Copper is an essential trace element, after all.

The Dutch are concerned about the high levels of copper in the ground
water.

Nothing is safe in excess. Banning copper-based fungicides for private
use will do nothing about that problem, but it is the sort of solution
that Whitehall adopts. I know little about the Dutch bureaucracy.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 26 Jun 2003 21:08:27 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

In article ,
martin wrote:
On 26 Jun 2003 20:58:05 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

They are one hell of a lot safer for humans. The lethal dose of copper
is something over a gram, and a minor overdose will rarely cause long
term damage. Copper is an essential trace element, after all.

The Dutch are concerned about the high levels of copper in the ground
water.

Nothing is safe in excess. Banning copper-based fungicides for private
use will do nothing about that problem,

reducing the amount of copper used in general and especially in
agriculture will do something towards reducing the problem

but it is the sort of solution
that Whitehall adopts. I know little about the Dutch bureaucracy.

They banned copper antifouling for boats for two years.
--
martin

".........So it's back to things like Bordeaux Mixture (Lime and Sulphur)
Copper Etc
Will have to dig out my old books... .........."

"........They are one hell of a lot safer for humans. ........"

Are they????????
Very intensively used as an insecticide around 1900's,1910's, 1920's,
1930's, was Paris Green
This was an Arsenic based compound.
Then we had DDT........

Yes lets bring back the old remedies

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

David Hill wrote:


".........So it's back to things like Bordeaux Mixture (Lime and Sulphur)
Copper Etc
Will have to dig out my old books... .........."

"........They are one hell of a lot safer for humans. ........"

Are they????????
Very intensively used as an insecticide around 1900's,1910's, 1920's,
1930's, was Paris Green
This was an Arsenic based compound.
Then we had DDT........

Yes lets bring back the old remedies

Yes discovered *relatively* recently in the history of Horticulture in
most cases.
//
Jim

In article , "David Hill" writes:
| ".........So it's back to things like Bordeaux Mixture (Lime and Sulphur)
| Copper Etc
| Will have to dig out my old books... .........."
|
| "........They are one hell of a lot safer for humans. ........"
|
| Are they????????
| Very intensively used as an insecticide around 1900's,1910's, 1920's,
| 1930's, was Paris Green
| This was an Arsenic based compound.
| Then we had DDT........
|
| Yes lets bring back the old remedies

Clot. It is 40 years since I did chemistry, but I am aware that
arsenic and copper are different elements. Perhaps you have
forgotten. And DDT is a recent (mid-20th century) organochloride,
not a metal-based pesticide.

Furthermore, I should appreciate not quoting me out of context.
Here is the real context:

So it's back to things like Bordeaux Mixture (Lime and Sulphur)
Copper Etc Will have to dig out my old books...

They are one hell of a lot safer for humans. The lethal dose of
copper is something over a gram, and a minor overdose will rarely
cause long term damage. Copper is an essential trace element,
after all.

The simple fact is that the copper-based fungicides are one hell of
a lot safer for humans than any of the effective organic systemic
fungicides.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
martin writes:
|
| The Dutch are concerned about the high levels of copper in the ground
| water.
|
| Nothing is safe in excess. Banning copper-based fungicides for private
| use will do nothing about that problem,
|
| reducing the amount of copper used in general and especially in
| agriculture will do something towards reducing the problem

That is true, but banning it only for private use will not do anything
significant.

| but it is the sort of solution
| that Whitehall adopts. I know little about the Dutch bureaucracy.
|
| They banned copper antifouling for boats for two years.

A reasonable decision. There is a lot of copper used on even a
small boat.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Steady on Nick I was also quoting myself when I said "Back to things like
Bordeaux Mixture"

Paris Green and DDT were both in use at the time Bordeaux mix was.

Yes DDT was used from about 1940, and to many 60+ years is a long time ago.
Also The first Organochlorides date back to late 1800's

And I quote...
"....DDT the first of the chlorinated organic insecticides, was originally
prepared in 1873, but it was not until 1939 that Paul Muller of Geigy
Pharmaceutical in Switzerland discovered the effectiveness of DDT as an
insecticide ...."

Probably the answer is a bit of Genetic engineering to make plants resistant
to pests.........
Before any one shouts....... many plants have wild relatives that are
resistant to pests so it could be done without crossing any species
boundaries.......
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1fx6bfx.jqtg1714eppk6N%00senetnospamtodayta@m acunlimited.net...
Amber wrote:

"David Hill" wrote in message
...
We can blame it on the EEC (or what ever it's present name is)
All chemicals have to be retested and for many firms the cost is not
worth
it for a lot of the chemicals used in the Armature market.
Its not all that much better for the professional.
And then its also down to this "Nanny State" where Rose clear was
removed
from sale as One Fool managed to get concentrate into his/her eye and
it
caused Irritation.... no lasting damage....... but ..... in something
like
12 years of use it was the first incident reported..
So it's back to things like Bordeaux Mixture (Lime and Sulphur)
Copper
Etc
Will have to dig out my old books...


has anyone got any recommendations of what product to use on food stuffs
or
are they all much the same?

One thats recomended & licenced for use on vegetable and for that
particular pest. They all have labels that you should read before use.

Anything specific in mind??

densley packed plants with mildew - lemon balm and something that for the
minute escapes me to name. Also black spot on a climbing ros thats nr
rosemary.

"Amber" wrote in message
...

Anything specific in mind??

densley packed plants with mildew - lemon balm and something that for the
minute escapes me to name. Also black spot on a climbing ros thats nr
rosemary.


Wouldn't it be simpler to alter the way you grow stuff and/or not grow the
worst effected plants at all? I can't remember when the last time I used a
fungicide in the garden was, I do use something for botrytis in my
propagating house, so I am not anti chemicals just can't ever seem to get
around to spray in the garden :~)
--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

Charlie Pridham wrote:

"Amber" wrote in message
...

Anything specific in mind??

densley packed plants with mildew - lemon balm and something that for the
minute escapes me to name. Also black spot on a climbing ros thats nr
rosemary.


Wouldn't it be simpler to alter the way you grow stuff and/or not grow the
worst effected plants at all? I can't remember when the last time I used a
fungicide in the garden was, I do use something for botrytis in my
propagating house, so I am not anti chemicals just can't ever seem to get
around to spray in the garden :~)

LOL I think I said something similar back earlier in the thread.. I
also noted the 'densley packed' Ideal for mildew.. I believe both
milk and bicarb of soda have negative effects on mildew. Is it powdery
or downy? Likley to be the former I think.

Blackspot on roses.. Take of and dispose of affected leaves when seen..
Don't leave any clippings lying around.. Spray with a suitable winter
wash out of season. Even a comfrey/nettle mixture can do good when
combined with physical control. Its not approved/licenced but its not
'controlled' either.. Something thats been covered a while back.

Botrytis is another beast all together but again can be reduced by good
conditions and cleanliness to start with.. Not that I'm saying I'm a
saint with either in the garden.. As guilty as the next person;-))))


//
Jim

"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1fx6bfx.jqtg1714eppk6N%00senetnospamtodayta@m acunlimited.net...
Amber wrote:

"David Hill" wrote in message
...
We can blame it on the EEC (or what ever it's present name is)
All chemicals have to be retested and for many firms the cost is not
worth
it for a lot of the chemicals used in the Armature market.
Its not all that much better for the professional.
And then its also down to this "Nanny State" where Rose clear was
removed
from sale as One Fool managed to get concentrate into his/her eye and
it
caused Irritation.... no lasting damage....... but ..... in something
like
12 years of use it was the first incident reported..
So it's back to things like Bordeaux Mixture (Lime and Sulphur)
Copper
Etc
Will have to dig out my old books...


has anyone got any recommendations of what product to use on food stuffs
or
are they all much the same?

One thats recomended & licenced for use on vegetable and for that
particular pest. They all have labels that you should read before use.

Anything specific in mind??


oops sorry missed the last bit! Its really that I have problems with thick
growth in densely packed beds and this is why I found systemics worked well
for me as the mode of action didn't involve trying to spray every last leaf.
Do I need to get something specific to apply with as I am presuming it needs
contact with all infected areas?

"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1fx6bfx.jqtg1714eppk6N%00senetnospamtodayta@m acunlimited.net...
Amber wrote:

"David Hill" wrote in message
...
We can blame it on the EEC (or what ever it's present name is)
All chemicals have to be retested and for many firms the cost is not
worth
it for a lot of the chemicals used in the Armature market.
Its not all that much better for the professional.
And then its also down to this "Nanny State" where Rose clear was
removed
from sale as One Fool managed to get concentrate into his/her eye and
it
caused Irritation.... no lasting damage....... but ..... in something
like
12 years of use it was the first incident reported..
So it's back to things like Bordeaux Mixture (Lime and Sulphur)
Copper
Etc
Will have to dig out my old books...


has anyone got any recommendations of what product to use on food stuffs
or
are they all much the same?

One thats recomended & licenced for use on vegetable and for that
particular pest. They all have labels that you should read before use.

Anything specific in mind??


oops sorry missed the last bit! Its really that I have problems with thick
growth in densely packed beds and this is why I found systemics worked well
for me as the mode of action didn't involve trying to spray every last leaf.
Do I need to get something specific to apply with as I am presuming it needs
contact with all infected areas?