"martin" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:58:15 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"martin" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:27:58 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I used
whilst
I was an undergraduate student
Why was that Franz? because there were no grants in your student days?

Hull used to make their students repay their grants if they dropped
out.

I went to Cape Town University. No grants. My father lent me the money
(which he had to borrow from the bank) I had to repay him during my
first
five working years. The same went for all four my brothers.

We've come the full circle.

Yes. Insofar as each of us was effectively responsible for keeping the
next one at University.

Franz

"......... I cannot understand why "young peeps (PEOPLE)" should receive
grants to try and make a living. Are you saying that everybody who is
trying to make any kind of living should receive a grant for doing so?
......"

1./ I agree...Its disgusting thinking of helping Our citizens to become
independent........this sort of help should be reserved for the Multi
national companies who will bring in employment, and who deserve their multi
Million Pound government grants to encourage them into this country, then
their Rates exemption for 5 years to get them to locate in a needy locality.


2./ Its so easy to offer others advice, but so much harder to put it into
action when you are already working 70 or 80 hours a week.
Farmers Markets can be useful but when so many are only held once a month
you have to do a lot of travelling to get any sort of regular round, and Veg
unlike meat needs to be sold when it is ready, wont keep till next week when
you have the next market.
Farm shop is not really an idea as it has to be staffed all the time,(though
this is where some form of Co op just might work with Half a dozen or so
people sharing costs etc).
Added value is great if it is possible, but you need a market and mostly a
continuous supply, and a large quantity,(I doubt if smoked lettuce or smoked
marrow will catch on)
Niche marketing is good -first find your niche then build your customer base
and hope no one else jumps on the band wagon. Supplying fresh herbs to local
catering establishments, Ethnic Veg,
Finally what about running day courses on Organic Gardening at a substantial
fee per person, or if accommodation is available "Organic Weekend Breaks".

3./ If you are self employed and "go on the sick" you are not allowed to do
anything if you are the only worker.Not even supposed to do the watering to
keep your plants alive.
As it was explained to me.
"If you have a Farm and employ someone then when you take feed to the cows
it is not working as you don't Have to do it, but if you don't employ
someone then if you take the feed to the cows then you are working,
You can work for about 18 hours for someone else as therapeutic work, but
not for yourself.



--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...
[...]
-- after all, I had five
years of university grants in my time, and big business often seems to
have its hand deep in the taxpayer's back pocket.

You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I used whilst
I was an undergraduate student

Franz

So did I: it's a nifty system called taxation. Some foreigner called
Rupert Murdoch doesn't like it, so it's not fashionable any more, with
visible consequences.

Mike.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
m...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...
[...]
-- after all, I had five
years of university grants in my time, and big business often seems to
have its hand deep in the taxpayer's back pocket.

You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I used
whilst
I was an undergraduate student

Franz

So did I: it's a nifty system called taxation.

Not really. The folk who were more affluent than you would have had to pay
more towards your education than you.

[snip]

Franz

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
m...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...
[...]
-- after all, I had five
years of university grants in my time, and big business often seems to
have its hand deep in the taxpayer's back pocket.

You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I used
whilst
I was an undergraduate student

Franz

So did I: it's a nifty system called taxation.

Not really. The folk who were more affluent than you would have had to pay
more towards your education than you.

And those who were less affluent than I had part of their costs paid
by me, so it evened out pretty well. Why I prefer my system -- and I
understand perfectly well the merits of a loan system -- is that it
made it easier for the less affluent to consider higher education
because there wasn't the psychological barrier of what looks like a
pretty big debt. In fact the present student loan *isn't* in real
terms a big debt; but it looks big from the point of view of those on
low incomes.

Given that an educated public is an advantage to us all, like a decent
police service or drains that work, I have no objection to more
affluent people (and when I was one of them, I *had* no serious
objection) paying more taxes: no modern nation could survive for ten
minutes without progressive taxation.

Mike.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
m...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...
[...]
-- after all, I had five
years of university grants in my time, and big business often
seems to
have its hand deep in the taxpayer's back pocket.

You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I
used
whilst
I was an undergraduate student

Franz

So did I: it's a nifty system called taxation.

Not really. The folk who were more affluent than you would have had to
pay
more towards your education than you.

And those who were less affluent than I had part of their costs paid
by me, so it evened out pretty well. Why I prefer my system -- and I
understand perfectly well the merits of a loan system -- is that it
made it easier for the less affluent to consider higher education
because there wasn't the psychological barrier of what looks like a
pretty big debt. In fact the present student loan *isn't* in real
terms a big debt; but it looks big from the point of view of those on
low incomes.

Given that an educated public is an advantage to us all, like a decent
police service or drains that work, I have no objection to more
affluent people (and when I was one of them, I *had* no serious
objection) paying more taxes: no modern nation could survive for ten
minutes without progressive taxation.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating the adoption of the
system under which I was educated. I was merely stating a fact. I am,
possibly even more so than you, a strong proponent of the concept of
utilising taxation to spread wealth a little more uniformly through society.
But that does not, in my mind equate with selecting certain sections of
society by profession for special treatment.

Franz

Mike Lyle wrote:

And those who were less affluent than I had part of their costs paid
by me, so it evened out pretty well. Why I prefer my system -- and I
understand perfectly well the merits of a loan system -- is that it
made it easier for the less affluent to consider higher education
because there wasn't the psychological barrier of what looks like a
pretty big debt. In fact the present student loan *isn't* in real
terms a big debt; but it looks big from the point of view of those on
low incomes.

Exactly, 10 quid is not a lot. But it is if you haven't got it;-))

I was lucky.. I did my course 'just' before they did away the grants..
Which in any case were never enough to actually cover the costs of doing
the course, but better than a punch on the nose-)
//
Jim

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:51:44 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"martin" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:58:15 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"martin" wrote in message
news On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:27:58 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I used
whilst
I was an undergraduate student
Why was that Franz? because there were no grants in your student days?

Hull used to make their students repay their grants if they dropped
out.

I went to Cape Town University. No grants. My father lent me the money
(which he had to borrow from the bank) I had to repay him during my
first
five working years. The same went for all four my brothers.

We've come the full circle.

Yes. Insofar as each of us was effectively responsible for keeping the
next one at University.

You had to borrow from your father
I had a full non repayable grant.
I have had to pay for my two kids to go to university, with some help
from my employer.
--
Martin

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:


You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I used whilst
I was an undergraduate student

Franz

And don`t forget those of us who never had the benefit of a university
education and actually have paid for it with our taxes.

--
email farmer chris on
Please don`t use as it`s a spam haven.

In article , Christopher Norton
writes
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:


You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I used whilst
I was an undergraduate student

Franz

And don`t forget those of us who never had the benefit of a university
education and actually have paid for it with our taxes.

All of us pay for things with our taxes which we never actually use.
There are some things (eg rubbish collection, drainage systems) which it
would be very difficult to provide except by taxation, and others
(health services) where the neediest couldn't possibly afford to pay
themselves. There doesn't seem much point to me in totting up the
benefits and costs (and I am not one of those who clearly benefits more
than I contribute).

I would not want to be part of a society where the richer members could
stand aside and watch the poorer members go to the wall.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

Christopher Norton wrote in message ...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:


You were luckier than I was. I had to repay every penny which I used whilst
I was an undergraduate student

Franz

And don`t forget those of us who never had the benefit of a university
education and actually have paid for it with our taxes.

You may occasionally have benefited from the services of a plant
pathologist, a plant breeder, a public health officer, a dentist, a
doctor, a teacher, a pharmacist, a solicitor, a composer, an
accountant, an architect, a tax inspector(!), a civil engineer, a
senior police officer, an automobile engineer, an aircraft engineer, a
playwright, a television producer, the Monty Python team, a magazine
or newspaper editor, a librarian, maybe a naval architect or a priest,
or even an unfortunate "Do you want fries with that?" expert. So I
don't feel too guilty!

Mike.

The message
from (Mike Lyle) contains these words:

You may occasionally have benefited from the services of a plant
pathologist, a plant breeder, a public health officer, a dentist, a
doctor, a teacher, a pharmacist, a solicitor, a composer, an
accountant, an architect, a tax inspector(!), a civil engineer, a
senior police officer, an automobile engineer, an aircraft engineer, a
playwright, a television producer, the Monty Python team, a magazine
or newspaper editor, a librarian, maybe a naval architect or a priest,
or even an unfortunate "Do you want fries with that?" expert. So I
don't feel too guilty!

Mike.

I dont mike. I just dont like people complaining about how skint they
are when they leave. I`m the exception rather than the rule with my
friends as they all went to Uni. I did the decent thing and used to
supply each of them with a sunday dinner every time I visited them in
turn.

I`d rather pay for education than bombs.

--
email farmer chris on
Please don`t use as it`s a spam haven.

The message
from Kay Easton contains these words:


All of us pay for things with our taxes which we never actually use.
There are some things (eg rubbish collection, drainage systems) which it
would be very difficult to provide except by taxation, and others
(health services) where the neediest couldn't possibly afford to pay
themselves. There doesn't seem much point to me in totting up the
benefits and costs (and I am not one of those who clearly benefits more
than I contribute).

I would not want to be part of a society where the richer members could
stand aside and watch the poorer members go to the wall.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

Neither would I Kay, but it annoys me when people complain about the
injustices of having to go to Uni in this country when you see the cost
to the student/family in the states or aus for a comparable education.
My cousin spent nearly $100,000 in getting to be a teacher in Aus and
him and his wife had to work like trojens to get the money to be able to
do it.

--
email farmer chris on
Please don`t use as it`s a spam haven.