"Jaques d'Altrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

Jackdaws, flocking? I've seen half a dozen or so , but flocks?

We have a flock of around a hundred jackdaws as permanent residents in
this
vicinity. Lower down the dale, in Bainbridge, there is a flock of a few
hundred. Both make earsplitting noises at roosting time.
And I mean jackdaws. We also have a flock of rooks around these parts,
but
that is another matter.

Jackdaws are a bit of a rarity here.

I blame the gamekeepers.

That might well be.

{:-((

Franz

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 17:14:02 +0100, Jaques d'Altrades
wrote:

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

Jackdaws, flocking? I've seen half a dozen or so , but flocks?

We have a flock of around a hundred jackdaws as permanent residents in
this
vicinity. Lower down the dale, in Bainbridge, there is a flock of a
few
hundred. Both make earsplitting noises at roosting time.
And I mean jackdaws. We also have a flock of rooks around these parts,
but
that is another matter.

Jackdaws are a bit of a rarity here.

I blame the gamekeepers.

There are millions of the things living in house chimneys here, I
blame central heating.

There iis a jackdaw nest in an unused chimney in our house.

Franz

On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:26:53 +0100, Jaques d'Altrades
wrote:

The message
from martin contains these words:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:07:52 +0100, "Rod"
wrote:
"martin" wrote in message
.. .

There are millions of the things living in house chimneys here, I
blame central heating.
--
Don't do what our old estate agent did many years ago soon after we
came here.

I wouldn't dream of harming a jackdaw, they are the only birds with
enough intelligence to have avoided being eaten by our two cats.

I must admit to having a soft spot for jackdaws - unlike the head keeper!

When I was a slip of a lad one used to perch on the balustrade above a
local parade of shops, and wolf-whistle.

My grandmother had one that could talk.


--
Martin

In article ,
Sad Sid . wrote:
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
I'd lay odds on any bat when it comes to ærial maoeuvrability versus a
rook.

Not quite any bat - some of the flying foxes (fruit bats) aren't very
agile. But, in the UK, I agree. My guess would be that the bat just
did a jink, and disappeared from sight - while several birds might
well take bats, it seems a little implausible that they would be able
to catch one on the wing.

I really wish you were right. However the bat has never reappeared. It was a
regular feature in our night-time sky, emerging from the Manse just before
dusk every evening.

No longer.

One of the things that made me doubt that it was a simple as that
is that I doubt VERY much that a bird the size of a jackdaw could
swallow a pipistrelle whole in flight. It isn't so much the relative
weights (say, 200 versus 4 grammes), but the sizes of a jackdaw's
gape and the bat's body - plus, of course, the wings. And, unless I
am mistaken, all of the slower UK bats are larger.

I would have expected you to see the bat in the jackdaw's beak, and
the bird fairly obviously struggle to swallow the bat's wings, but
you implied strongly that "it just vanished".

Also, remember that most UK bats are semi-migratory, and it is also
possible that it migrated later that night or early the next. The
probability of this is not particularly low, after all.

In the absence of definite proof, the only reasonable conclusion is
an open verdict. Even pellet analysis would not prove that jackdaws
can catch bats in flight, as I would expect a jackdaw to eat a
roosting bat if it found one. Until and unless someone can provide
reliable evidence, I remain doubtful.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Sad Sid . wrote:
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
I'd lay odds on any bat when it comes to ærial maoeuvrability versus a
rook.

Not quite any bat - some of the flying foxes (fruit bats) aren't very
agile. But, in the UK, I agree. My guess would be that the bat just
did a jink, and disappeared from sight - while several birds might
well take bats, it seems a little implausible that they would be able
to catch one on the wing.

I really wish you were right. However the bat has never reappeared. It was a
regular feature in our night-time sky, emerging from the Manse just before
dusk every evening.

No longer.

One of the things that made me doubt that it was a simple as that
is that I doubt VERY much that a bird the size of a jackdaw could
swallow a pipistrelle whole in flight. It isn't so much the relative
weights (say, 200 versus 4 grammes), but the sizes of a jackdaw's
gape and the bat's body - plus, of course, the wings. And, unless I
am mistaken, all of the slower UK bats are larger.

I would have expected you to see the bat in the jackdaw's beak, and
the bird fairly obviously struggle to swallow the bat's wings, but
you implied strongly that "it just vanished".

But then it was evening and the observer didn't say how far away he was.

Also, remember that most UK bats are semi-migratory, and it is also
possible that it migrated later that night or early the next. The
probability of this is not particularly low, after all.

But one of the least migratory is the pipistrelle. The statement in
'British Bats' (Altringham 2003) is actually "Most populations appear to
be non-migratory", though it goes on to say that there is some movement
from summer roosts to hibernation sites. However, winter sites are not
usually occupied in England until November, so it would be *very* early
for a pipistrelle to set off on migration at the end of September.

In the absence of definite proof, the only reasonable conclusion is
an open verdict. Even pellet analysis would not prove that jackdaws
can catch bats in flight, as I would expect a jackdaw to eat a
roosting bat if it found one. Until and unless someone can provide
reliable evidence, I remain doubtful.

Intriguing though, isn't it?


--
Malcolm Ogilvie

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

There iis a jackdaw nest in an unused chimney in our house.

No there isn't. It can't be unused........

--
Rusty Hinge
horrid·squeak&zetnet·co·uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm

"Jaques d'Altrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

There iis a jackdaw nest in an unused chimney in our house.

No there isn't. It can't be unused........

I guess I asked for it. {:-((

Franz

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:19:49 +0100, Jaques d'Altrades
wrote:

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

There is a jackdaw nest in an unused chimney in our house.

No there isn't. It can't be unused........

........ well it certainly isn't used as a chimney.
--
Martin

Stone the crows!
What an astonishing response.
Just to clear the air, I'm not a "rookie" and do know a Jackdaw when I see
one.
The bat was NOT a pipistrelle. The Manse used to have a colony of Greater
Horseshoes. These were removed to a secret location when it was re-roofed.
One is believed to have returned and was regularly seen.

The aerial display by the Jackdaws takes place in good light every evening
as the sun sets. They are all safely back in their roosts by the time the
light is failing.

The bat had just emerged from the Manse, as it did every evening, and was
flying in my garden - as it did every evening. The Jackdaws were in a flock
of several hundred wheeling and calling overhead. A pair broke away and flew
across the garden. The bat flew into their path and one jinked and took it.
The light was not poor, the bat was always easy to see. It has never
reappeared.
Either the Jackdaw took the opportunity to snatch it - or it chose that
precise moment to emigrate! I know which I believe is more probable!

However, for those who struggle with this, allow me to reassure you that no
trees were felled yesterday, no-one died or was born, no cars crashed and
no-one was mugged. They can't have been because You didn't see it......

In article ,
Sad Sid . wrote:
Stone the crows!

Or the jackdaws, as the case may be!

The bat was NOT a pipistrelle. The Manse used to have a colony of Greater
Horseshoes. These were removed to a secret location when it was re-roofed.
One is believed to have returned and was regularly seen.

The bat had just emerged from the Manse, as it did every evening, and was
flying in my garden - as it did every evening. The Jackdaws were in a flock
of several hundred wheeling and calling overhead. A pair broke away and flew
across the garden. The bat flew into their path and one jinked and took it.
The light was not poor, the bat was always easy to see. It has never
reappeared.
Either the Jackdaw took the opportunity to snatch it - or it chose that
precise moment to emigrate! I know which I believe is more probable!

Not quite. My hypothesis is that it disappeared from sight, and
left the vicinity before you saw it again. Conceivably it could have
died elsewhere.

I am not sure whether a greater horseshoe is more or less likely to
be killed by a jackdaw than a pipistrelle. One of them is 10% of the
weight of a jackdaw, has a 10% greater wingspan, and has a head and body
length 30% longer than a jackdaw's beak. Easy enough to kill, but a
heck of a mouthful!

You say that you saw it clearly. Did you see it in the jackdaw's
beak after it was caught? If not, can you explain why you might not
have done? I assuredly DON'T believe that a jackdaw could catch AND
SWALLOW a greater horseshoe bat on the wing in the way that birds and
bats catch insects!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Sad Sid . wrote:
Stone the crows!

Or the jackdaws, as the case may be!

The bat was NOT a pipistrelle. The Manse used to have a colony of Greater
Horseshoes. These were removed to a secret location when it was re-roofed.
One is believed to have returned and was regularly seen.

The bat had just emerged from the Manse, as it did every evening, and was
flying in my garden - as it did every evening. The Jackdaws were in a flock
of several hundred wheeling and calling overhead. A pair broke away and flew
across the garden. The bat flew into their path and one jinked and took it.
The light was not poor, the bat was always easy to see. It has never
reappeared.
Either the Jackdaw took the opportunity to snatch it - or it chose that
precise moment to emigrate! I know which I believe is more probable!

Not quite. My hypothesis is that it disappeared from sight, and
left the vicinity before you saw it again. Conceivably it could have
died elsewhere.

I am not sure whether a greater horseshoe is more or less likely to
be killed by a jackdaw than a pipistrelle. One of them is 10% of the
weight of a jackdaw, has a 10% greater wingspan, and has a head and body
length 30% longer than a jackdaw's beak. Easy enough to kill, but a
heck of a mouthful!

You say that you saw it clearly. Did you see it in the jackdaw's
beak after it was caught? If not, can you explain why you might not
have done? I assuredly DON'T believe that a jackdaw could catch AND
SWALLOW a greater horseshoe bat on the wing in the way that birds and
bats catch insects!

Perhaps instead of shouting what you don't believe, it would be more
useful to wait until Sid tells us whether he continued to watch the
Jackdaw that he believes caught the bat. It would indeed be highly
unlikely that a Jackdaw would swallow a large object on the wing. That
is not how they cope with large food items. Their normal behaviour is to
land with them, transfer them to their feet and then use their bill to
kill (if necessary) and feed on them. There are descriptions of them
doing just this with birds up to the size of a Starling (which is over
30% the weight of a Jackdaw) and which is substantially larger-bodied
and heavier than a Greater Horseshoe Bat, though with a fairly similar
wingspan.


--
Malcolm Ogilvie

"Jaques d'Altrades" wrote in message
Any gamekeeper worth his salt would have taken them out with an air
rifle. Corvines are very easy to knock over.

He wasn't.

Rod

"Sad Sid" . wrote in message
...
Stone the crows!
What an astonishing response.
Just to clear the air, I'm not a "rookie" and do know a Jackdaw when I see
one.
The bat was NOT a pipistrelle. The Manse used to have a colony of Greater
Horseshoes. These were removed to a secret location when it was re-roofed.
One is believed to have returned and was regularly seen.

The aerial display by the Jackdaws takes place in good light every evening
as the sun sets. They are all safely back in their roosts by the time the
light is failing.

The bat had just emerged from the Manse, as it did every evening, and was
flying in my garden - as it did every evening. The Jackdaws were in a
flock
of several hundred wheeling and calling overhead. A pair broke away and
flew
across the garden. The bat flew into their path and one jinked and took
it.
The light was not poor, the bat was always easy to see. It has never
reappeared.
Either the Jackdaw took the opportunity to snatch it - or it chose that
precise moment to emigrate! I know which I believe is more probable!

However, for those who struggle with this, allow me to reassure you that
no
trees were felled yesterday, no-one died or was born, no cars crashed and
no-one was mugged. They can't have been because You didn't see it......

Sid, jour snipping is a bit too all-encompassing. Please spare the relevant
headers and the context. {:-((

Franz

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I am not sure whether a greater horseshoe is more or less likely to
be killed by a jackdaw than a pipistrelle. One of them is 10% of the
weight of a jackdaw, has a 10% greater wingspan, and has a head and body
length 30% longer than a jackdaw's beak. Easy enough to kill, but a
heck of a mouthful!

Jackdaws carry portable knives and forks.

Franz

"Sad Sid" . wrote in message
...
Stone the crows!
What an astonishing response.
Just to clear the air, I'm not a "rookie" and do know a Jackdaw when I see
one.
The bat was NOT a pipistrelle. The Manse used to have a colony of Greater
Horseshoes. These were removed to a secret location when it was re-roofed.
One is believed to have returned and was regularly seen.

The aerial display by the Jackdaws takes place in good light every evening
as the sun sets. They are all safely back in their roosts by the time the
light is failing.

The bat had just emerged from the Manse, as it did every evening, and was
flying in my garden - as it did every evening. The Jackdaws were in a
flock
of several hundred wheeling and calling overhead. A pair broke away and
flew
across the garden. The bat flew into their path and one jinked and took
it.
The light was not poor, the bat was always easy to see. It has never
reappeared.
Either the Jackdaw took the opportunity to snatch it - or it chose that
precise moment to emigrate! I know which I believe is more probable!

However, for those who struggle with this, allow me to reassure you that
no
trees were felled yesterday, no-one died or was born, no cars crashed and
no-one was mugged. They can't have been because You didn't see it......

Sid, jour snipping is a bit too all-encompassing. Please spare the relevant
headers and the context. {:-((

Franz