Clay is good soil packed badly. I have heavy clay over yellow clay over blue
clay. After 20 years the heavy clay has been improved. The yellow clay has
not changed and I doubt if I will long enough to improve the blue clay.
Incidentally blue clay was used to puddle the bottom of ponds, so you have
an idea of it's use
"TheScullster" wrote in message
...
Rather long history but please bear with it

I am trying to start a veg plot close to my kitchen approx size of plot 5m
x
3m
Until last weekend the area was covered in:
2-4" pea gravel on
1-2" weak concrete on
plastic membrane on
levelling sand

Having removed all the above I have found the following:

One end of the plot is dry clay with all the goodness leached out by
adjacent blue lawson firs
Towards the middle the clay is grey/blue and wet
At the other end the clay is wet and sticky

I have dug this over as thoroughly as possible, but need a program to try
to
establish a bed that I can work with next spring.

Will this clay actually break down given the right treatment?
My intention is to hit the area with plenty of mushroom compost and
pelletted chicken manure.
The area is at something of a low point in the garden, so I'm not
surprised
that it is damp particularly considering how well it has been covered (my
guess is that this arrangement has been in place for at least 10 years).

If I use the mushroom method (and it works) and then add 4-6" topsoil and
more compost, I reckon I can get a workable bed depth of around 12". Will
this be satisfactory for most vegetables?
Can I add fresh (non-rotted) horse manure at this time of year and expect
it
to break down and do some good by the spring? This would be additional to
the miushroom compost.

Finally any further suggestions for improving this area (I am reluctant to
excavate any more as it is back breaking and a difficult area to access
with
serious machinary)

The plot is in a north-east corner and gets sun from about mid day to 6pm

Thanks in anticipation from a mega newbie would be gardener

Phil

Jane Ransom wrote:


In article 1g49fl7.1v4xir1u4qrciN%00senetnospamtodayta@macun limited.net
, Jim W writes

And searching the web via goole on this brought me to the excellent URG
FAQ-)... Which actually shows something very similar;-)

http://www.tmac.clara.co.uk/urgring/faqsoil1.htm

Good God, Jim - how long have you been posting here?? . . . . .
That is one of our earliest faqs that I had pointed Phil to, way
back!!!!!!!!!
You didn't need to google!!!!!!!!

LOL.. you expect ME to remember that far back, on MY medication lol!...
Brain like swiss cheese ya know!-)
Jim

In article , Jane Ransom
writes
As Cormaic always used to say "the water has to have somewhere
to drain *to*".

Jane, where is he?
--
Judith Lea

"TheScullster" wrote in message
...
Jane

The OP (original poster?) has been assimilating all the information from
the
wealth of responses gratefully received.
There appear to be a number of contradictions in the messages and other
web
material - to add sand or not to add sand etc.

A summary appears to be that if I throw sufficient organic material at the
clay base I may just get somewhere.
I intend to remove the blue/grey stuff which is very localised (about 1 sq
metre) and looks the most unhealthy.
Having done this and removed concrete topping etc I am left with about 8"
height to make up, so if I make this up with top soil I will have some bed
depth to play with before the plants reach the clay even without moving to
"raised beds".

The unanswered parts of the original question a

Will fresh manure break down by next spring?
Is 12" sufficient depth of workable soil for veg patch?

I am a wee bit woried that if you till the top 12", say, and leave the stuff
below it as compacted clay, you will find yourself with a drainage problem.
If I were young again, I would have done an old fashioned double dig on it,
and
would have incorporated every rolled up chunk of newspaper and/or all the
straw that I could lay
my hands on, into the lower spit. I did in fact do it once, and it worked
wonders.

How do I work out a weight of topsoil knowing the volume required to be
filled?

Take the uncompacted density of it to be approximately of 2,000 Kg per cubic
metre.

Franz

"Finance" wrote in message
news
Clay is good soil packed badly.

That is not a very good characterisation of clay. A good soil has suitable
proportions of clay, sand (of various particle sizes) and organic matter.
There are actually good soils which have practically no clay at all.

Franz

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:34:59 -0000, "Finance"
wrote:

Clay is good soil packed badly. I have heavy clay over yellow clay over blue
clay. After 20 years the heavy clay has been improved. The yellow clay has
not changed and I doubt if I will long enough to improve the blue clay.
Incidentally blue clay was used to puddle the bottom of ponds, so you have
an idea of it's use

Everything you wanted to know about the microstructure of clays and
were frightened to ask
http://www.tam.uiuc.edu/courses/TAM2...y_minerals.pdf
--
Martin

In article ,
martin writes:
| On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:34:59 -0000, "Finance"
| wrote:
|
| Clay is good soil packed badly. I have heavy clay over yellow clay over blue
| clay. After 20 years the heavy clay has been improved. The yellow clay has
| not changed and I doubt if I will long enough to improve the blue clay.
| Incidentally blue clay was used to puddle the bottom of ponds, so you have
| an idea of it's use
|
| Everything you wanted to know about the microstructure of clays and
| were frightened to ask
| http://www.tam.uiuc.edu/courses/TAM2...y_minerals.pdf

Interesting. One thing that I didn't notice it saying explicitly
is that many nutrients bind to clay particles (but not to sand,
and only a little to peat), so soils with little clay leach very
badly and are often very low on nutrients.

Don't ask me the details, except that they are along the lines
of what the paper describes, and a bit more complicated.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Finance" wrote in message
news
Clay is good soil packed badly.

That is not a very good characterisation of clay. A good soil has suitable
proportions of clay, sand (of various particle sizes) and organic matter.
There are actually good soils which have practically no clay at all.

Franz

Definition 1 :
Clay soils have a very dense soil structure. The particle size is extremely
small and there is very little open space between and around the particles.
Water enters and drains from clay slowly. Clay soils can be very fertile but
hard to work. Soils should have at least 35 percent by volume clay particles to
be classified as "clay".

Definition 2:
Includes 'working with' - 'plants to use' etc etc
http://www.bachmans.com/retail/tipsh...thClaySoil.cfm

Definition 3:
All clays are pretty well unworkable with ordinary implements. For the melted
toffee consistency of winter, you might prefer a large soup-ladle; for light
working over summer, a hammer and cold chisel. Is the soil always too wet or
too dry? No, there's a period - usually a day or two in May - when you can
actually use a fork.
- John Lucas, Backs to the Garden Wall

Jenny

The message 1g49fl7.1v4xir1u4qrciN%00senetnospamtodayta@macun limited.net
from (Jim W) contains these words:

Gypsum (calcium sulphate, as opposed to 'lime' which is calcium
carbonate) is either sold as itself or by various 'brands' such as
claybreaker..

Slaked Lime = calcium hydroxide

Quicklime is calcium oxide.

Chalk is calcium carbonate.

--
Rusty Hinge
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Judith Lea contains these words:
In article , Jane Ransom
writes

As Cormaic always used to say "the water has to have somewhere
to drain *to*".

Jane, where is he?

Having a serious attack of RL, I understand.

--
Rusty Hinge
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
martin writes:
| On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:34:59 -0000, "Finance"
| wrote:
|
| Clay is good soil packed badly. I have heavy clay over yellow clay
over blue
| clay. After 20 years the heavy clay has been improved. The yellow clay
has
| not changed and I doubt if I will long enough to improve the blue
clay.
| Incidentally blue clay was used to puddle the bottom of ponds, so you
have
| an idea of it's use
|
| Everything you wanted to know about the microstructure of clays and
| were frightened to ask
|
http://www.tam.uiuc.edu/courses/TAM2...y_minerals.pdf

Interesting. One thing that I didn't notice it saying explicitly
is that many nutrients bind to clay particles (but not to sand,
and only a little to peat), so soils with little clay leach very
badly and are often very low on nutrients.

I wonder how non-peat material of organic origin behaves in this respect?
Well rotted manure, for example.

Don't ask me the details, except that they are along the lines
of what the paper describes, and a bit more complicated.

Franz

In article ,
Franz Heymann wrote:

Interesting. One thing that I didn't notice it saying explicitly
is that many nutrients bind to clay particles (but not to sand,
and only a little to peat), so soils with little clay leach very
badly and are often very low on nutrients.

I wonder how non-peat material of organic origin behaves in this respect?
Well rotted manure, for example.

Humus is the other material to which nutrients bind, yes. I believe
that they bind less well than to clay, but that could well be wrong.
The problem with humus is that it is short-lived (i.e. a year or two),
and so needs replenishing. I have no idea of the transfer properties
for nutrients between oxidising humus and fresh humus.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:


"Christopher Norton" wrote in message
...
If the clay is so "clayie" that you could make a pot with it then I can
recommend digging it out and contacting a local potter if he/she would
want some. We use a mixture of clays extracted from gardens and the
effects can be devistating once fired.

What might it be that the effects devastate? {:-))

Often or not, the differing clays give a mottled finish to the bisque
fired pot. Using a transparent glaze will accentuate that effect and
literally, if your lucky, make the pot alive.


I have a rich vein of clay and river silt from work that makes an
exceptional crank finish with a light red finish.

Then fill that part of the garden with other stuff.

Who was this exceptional crank who finished with a light red finish, and
what was the other stuff with which he then filled the garden? {:-))

Franz

Maybe the crank is me but it`s a potters term for a style of stoneware clay.

The other stuff was meant to be mushroom compost, horse manure, topsoil,
garden compost etc. Just "stuff" to make it a better and easier workable
soil.

In article ,
(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

so soils with little clay leach very
badly and are often very low on nutrients.

I sometimes wonder if I should add a little clay to my sand?

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com

In article ,
(Steve Harris) writes:
| In article ,
| (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
|
| so soils with little clay leach very
| badly and are often very low on nutrients.
|
| I sometimes wonder if I should add a little clay to my sand?

If you have almost pure sand, the answer could well be "yes"!
Have you done an assay?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.