(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

In article . 10,
Victoria Clare writes (about dead hives):
|
|
| We just left it in the 15 years later, still no problems. If it
| was inside a wall next to plasterboard or something I imagine it
| would be more problematic though.

We had no problem, either. The honey and (still more) wax will
NOT decay into a semi-fluid mess unless there are ALSO damp
problems. If kept reasonably dry, both will keep indefinitely
(though they will crystallise and oxidise somewhat).

Well, that house did have damp problems, and the chimney wasn't closed at
the top either - but still no signs of runny honey goo.

(It was Victorian - stone, yes, well-built, no. I have never been so
*cold* inside a house. Brrrrr. If I were a bee, I'd have gone somewhere
warmer!)

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

| We just left it in the 15 years later, still no problems. If it was
| inside a wall next to plasterboard or something I imagine it would
be more
| problematic though.

We had no problem, either. The honey and (still more) wax will
NOT decay into a semi-fluid mess unless there are ALSO damp
problems. If kept reasonably dry, both will keep indefinitely
(though they will crystallise and oxidise somewhat).

"Indefinitely" means for millennia at least, incidentally.

Always assuming the ants don't find it....

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:


In article . 10,
Victoria Clare writes:
| lid (Rodger Whitlock) wrote in
| :
|
| It is my understanding that having a honeybee
| hive in one's walls is a fairly serious matter. Sooner or later
| the hive will die out and you are left with a mass of wax and
| honey which will itself eventually decay and cause an incredible
| mess inside the wall. And this is a semi-fluid mess which can
| soak through plaster, flow down into lower levels, and so on. No
| trifling matter.

We had no problem, either. The honey and (still more) wax will
NOT decay into a semi-fluid mess unless there are ALSO damp
problems. If kept reasonably dry, both will keep indefinitely
(though they will crystallise and oxidise somewhat).

I have to agree with Rodger. We had bees set up a nest in the loft
above a plasterboard ceiling. Mice found out first; we didn't notice
until honey from the raided comb came through the ceiling :-(

Never did quite get rid of that ceiling stain...and as for honey in the
loft insulation...yuck...

Janet.

On Tue, 25 May 2004 01:31:51 +0100, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:


In article . 10,
Victoria Clare writes:
| lid (Rodger Whitlock) wrote in
| :
|
| It is my understanding that having a honeybee
| hive in one's walls is a fairly serious matter. Sooner or later
| the hive will die out and you are left with a mass of wax and
| honey which will itself eventually decay and cause an incredible
| mess inside the wall. And this is a semi-fluid mess which can
| soak through plaster, flow down into lower levels, and so on. No
| trifling matter.

We had no problem, either. The honey and (still more) wax will
NOT decay into a semi-fluid mess unless there are ALSO damp
problems. If kept reasonably dry, both will keep indefinitely
(though they will crystallise and oxidise somewhat).

I have to agree with Rodger. We had bees set up a nest in the loft
above a plasterboard ceiling. Mice found out first; we didn't notice
until honey from the raided comb came through the ceiling :-(

Never did quite get rid of that ceiling stain...and as for honey in the
loft insulation...yuck...

Janet.

IME of storing used honeycomb over a twenty year period, cells that
are capped, i.e. sealed by the bees with a wax cover, remain OK as
long as the seal isn't broken or the cells damaged. But if they do get
damaged, or if the cells contain honey but aren't capped, the honey
slowly absorbs moisture from the air (it's hygroscopic) and becomes
progressively more dilute and runny, eventually dribbling out of the
comb and finally fermenting.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:

IME of storing used honeycomb over a twenty year period, cells that
are capped, i.e. sealed by the bees with a wax cover, remain OK as
long as the seal isn't broken or the cells damaged. But if they do get
damaged, or if the cells contain honey but aren't capped, the honey
slowly absorbs moisture from the air (it's hygroscopic) and becomes
progressively more dilute and runny, eventually dribbling out of the
comb and finally fermenting.

That depends critically on the humidity of the air; I am 95% sure it
would not do it here, even in the wet winters we have had recently.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
That depends critically on the humidity of the air; I am 95% sure it
would not do it here, even in the wet winters we have had recently.

Honey regularly ferments if it is left open to the air.

John
--
John Rouse

In article ,
John Rouse wrote:
In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
That depends critically on the humidity of the air; I am 95% sure it
would not do it here, even in the wet winters we have had recently.

Honey regularly ferments if it is left open to the air.

And it as regularly crystallises and dries up.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 26/5/04 9:07 pm, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:

In article ,
John Rouse wrote:
In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
That depends critically on the humidity of the air; I am 95% sure it
would not do it here, even in the wet winters we have had recently.

Honey regularly ferments if it is left open to the air.

And it as regularly crystallises and dries up.


From what I recall of my bee keeping days and I'm sure *someone* will
correct me, crystallising or not is a temperature 'thang'. That's how e.g.
Gales provide solid or runny hunny.

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds after garden to email me)

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

From what I recall of my bee keeping days and I'm sure *someone* will
correct me, crystallising or not is a temperature 'thang'. That's how e.g.
Gales provide solid or runny hunny.

No. The type of honey is determined by the flowers the bees plunder.
Some produce clear runny honey, some hoey which gradually sets to a
thick paste, while some, like rape flowers, produce a honey which is
spoon-bendingly solid.

Gales almost certainly blend theirs for consistency of consistency.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

From what I recall of my bee keeping days and I'm sure *someone* will
correct me, crystallising or not is a temperature 'thang'. That's how e.g.
Gales provide solid or runny hunny.

No. The type of honey is determined by the flowers the bees plunder.
Some produce clear runny honey, some hoey which gradually sets to a
thick paste, while some, like rape flowers, produce a honey which is
spoon-bendingly solid.

Gales almost certainly blend theirs for consistency of consistency.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On 27/5/04 0:37, in article ,
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote:

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

From what I recall of my bee keeping days and I'm sure *someone* will
correct me, crystallising or not is a temperature 'thang'. That's how e.g.
Gales provide solid or runny hunny.

No. The type of honey is determined by the flowers the bees plunder.
Some produce clear runny honey, some hoey which gradually sets to a
thick paste, while some, like rape flowers, produce a honey which is
spoon-bendingly solid.

Gales almost certainly blend theirs for consistency of consistency.

I'm pretty sure heating comes into it somewhere with commercial honey - to
keep it runny, I mean. I know that my home grown honey gradually thickened
up as it got older (don't we all) but standing a jar of such honey in a bowl
of hot water or on top of an AGA will turn it runny again. I remember
asking an expert bee keeper friend about why Gales runny honey stayed that
way and heating it was the answer but I can't remember to what temp.

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds after garden to email me)

In article , Jaques d'Alltrades writes:
| The message
| from Sacha contains these words:
|
| From what I recall of my bee keeping days and I'm sure *someone* will
| correct me, crystallising or not is a temperature 'thang'. That's how e.g.
| Gales provide solid or runny hunny.
|
| No. The type of honey is determined by the flowers the bees plunder.
| Some produce clear runny honey, some hoey which gradually sets to a
| thick paste, while some, like rape flowers, produce a honey which is
| spoon-bendingly solid.

No, Sacha is at least partially right. Clear honey will crystallise
with time, and it can be reversed (though not back to the original
state) by warming it. You are right that different sources give
different consistencies.

My point was and is that it is only mildly hygroscopic, and the
humidities and temperatures in this country are such that it can
either lose or gain water, depending. The same applies to jams,
though sucrose is less hygroscopic than honey.

| Gales almost certainly blend theirs for consistency of consistency.

They do. And treat it in various ways, too.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , Sacha
writes

I'm pretty sure heating comes into it somewhere with commercial honey - to
keep it runny, I mean. I know that my home grown honey gradually thickened
up as it got older (don't we all) but standing a jar of such honey in a bowl
of hot water or on top of an AGA will turn it runny again. I remember
asking an expert bee keeper friend about why Gales runny honey stayed that
way and heating it was the answer but I can't remember to what temp.

Honey is basically sugar, and a saturated sugar solution will be
'liquid' at higher temperatures and crystallise as it cools. Not sure
what the amount of crystallisation depends on, but it can be increased
by physical stress, so that, for example, when making crumbly fudge, you
press a spatula against it repeatedly when cooling to encourage it to
crystallise.


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

Gales almost certainly blend theirs for consistency of consistency.

I'm pretty sure heating comes into it somewhere with commercial honey - to
keep it runny, I mean. I know that my home grown honey gradually thickened
up as it got older (don't we all) but standing a jar of such honey in a bowl
of hot water or on top of an AGA will turn it runny again. I remember
asking an expert bee keeper friend about why Gales runny honey stayed that
way and heating it was the answer but I can't remember to what temp.

No. Heating comes into it for pasteurisation.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

In article ,
Jaques d'Alltrades writes:
| The message
| from Sacha contains these words:
|
| Gales almost certainly blend theirs for consistency of consistency.
|
| I'm pretty sure heating comes into it somewhere with commercial honey - to
| keep it runny, I mean. I know that my home grown honey gradually thickened
| up as it got older (don't we all) but standing a jar of such honey in a bowl
| of hot water or on top of an AGA will turn it runny again. I remember
| asking an expert bee keeper friend about why Gales runny honey stayed that
| way and heating it was the answer but I can't remember to what temp.
|
| No. Heating comes into it for pasteurisation.

That does not stop the other being true. Look up "super-cooled
liquids" for the effect that I mean - it is actually a variant
of the way that you make (clear) toffee. In the case of Gales,
something else is done as well, because it does not crystallise
as easily as any natural runny honey I have seen.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.