"Douglas" wrote in message
...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Douglas" wrote in message
...

"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in
message
...
gOn Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:28:14 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:

The time for taking summer cuttings is approaching. This
raises
the
perennial questions which bother me at this time of the
year:

Is the shelf life of last year's purchase of "Strike" powder
long
enough for me to risk using it again this year?

I think I've read that the active ingredient decomposes fairly
quickly and that you should buy fresh powder annually. Do I
myself do this? No.

I've also read commments (perhaps here in urg) that for most
plants, rooting hormones are an irrelevancy, so the potency or
impotency of one's hormone powder is also irrelevant.

Still, I use the stuff just in case, but as time goes on my
methods become more and more primitive. Right now I've got
rose
cuttings underway, powdered and dibbled directly into the soil
with a glass jar over them, just like grandma used to do.

******

They'll grow, - but the purists don't like them.

Hard luck on the purists. I have grown roses satisfactorily from
cuttings for years and years. My impression is that the trade
uses
budding mainly because they can get a larger number of offspring
from
one stock plant that way.

[snip]

Franz
******
In friendy spirit,
I have to disagree. Budding and grafting usually puts three scions
on to one
rootstock and done properly they all prosper and form an acceptable
show of
branches from which the usual bush develops. You therefore have
control over
the plant and that control derives from the rootstock
characteristics, one
of which is of course 'dwarfing'.
This is especially important for fruit trees because the rootstock

I know nothing at all about fruit trees. I was talking about taking
rose cuttings. I have had enough succes with that to keep me happy.

[snip]

Franz

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:44:51 +0100, "Douglas"
wrote:


In friendy spirit,
I have to disagree. Budding and grafting usually puts three scions on to one
rootstock and done properly they all prosper and form an acceptable show of
branches from which the usual bush develops.
It's a question of control and I can explain it better by saying that I have
many roses, but I can illustrate my thinking by saying that I have different
types of rose plants,.
1. Small hybrid T types.
2. Floribundas.
3. Ramblers.
4. Climbers.
5, Standards.
6. Tree Rose. A rose Tree about twelve feet high, on one bole (or trunk) and
a large spread of branches
which at the moment are ablaze with about a hundred large rose flowers.
All have been budded or grafted.
The point here is that the scions are attached at different heights, the HT
at about four inches up the rootstock, the standards at about a yard up and
the tree at 12 feet up on the top of the stock (bole or trunk).
By using simple cuttings you are restricted to only one style of rose bush
or tree.
Rootstocks also seem to ensure much vigour for a longer time, in my opinion,
if the pruning is carried out correctly.
Doug.

I take it you're budding these yourself Doug? AFAIK no commercial
nursery in the UK budss in the way you describe.
Standards = 3 buds at the height you want the head to develop.
Bush = One bud on the 'neck' of the rootstock as close as possible to
the ground.
Ramblers & Climbers likewise.
Tree Rose as you describe has to be a DIY job, no nurseries do them.
Choice of rootstocks needs more space than I can give here but it's
true some stocks suit certain soil types better than others. Lots of
other factors but it usually boils down to most nurseries using R.
'Laxa' for most production, others being kept for special purposes. In
our annual planting of around 1.25million stocks we always had around
20,000 R. canina for late budding because the sap continued to run a
bit longer. Some nurseries who supplied roses to us from Eastern
Scotland used a lot of R. multiflora.

Personally I like certain shrub roses and most species to be on their
own roots, only in that way are they able to show their true habit.
Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Douglas" wrote in message
...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Douglas" wrote in message
...

"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in
message
...
gOn Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:28:14 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:

The time for taking summer cuttings is approaching. This
raises
the
perennial questions which bother me at this time of the
year:

Is the shelf life of last year's purchase of "Strike" powder
long
enough for me to risk using it again this year?

I think I've read that the active ingredient decomposes fairly
quickly and that you should buy fresh powder annually. Do I
myself do this? No.

I've also read commments (perhaps here in urg) that for most
plants, rooting hormones are an irrelevancy, so the potency or
impotency of one's hormone powder is also irrelevant.

Still, I use the stuff just in case, but as time goes on my
methods become more and more primitive. Right now I've got
rose
cuttings underway, powdered and dibbled directly into the soil
with a glass jar over them, just like grandma used to do.

******

They'll grow, - but the purists don't like them.

Hard luck on the purists. I have grown roses satisfactorily from
cuttings for years and years. My impression is that the trade
uses
budding mainly because they can get a larger number of offspring
from
one stock plant that way.

[snip]

Franz
******
In friendy spirit,
I have to disagree. Budding and grafting usually puts three scions
on to one
rootstock and done properly they all prosper and form an acceptable
show of
branches from which the usual bush develops. You therefore have
control over
the plant and that control derives from the rootstock
characteristics, one
of which is of course 'dwarfing'.
This is especially important for fruit trees because the rootstock

I know nothing at all about fruit trees.

******
What a pity. If, like me you had ventured into that field you would have a
much better insight into
the ramifications of plant proliferation, - the whys and wherefores and the
successes and failures in propagation.
If rose growers tried to introduced roses cultivated by single cuttings
stuck into compost they would very soon be out of business as the public
gradually tumbled to it that they had an inferior plant on their hands, -
er, sorry! - lands.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with numbers of cuttings from stock
plants. The best propagators put three scions on each rootstock, so, -
apart from having the expense of providing and rooting the rootstock, it is
not sure that all grafts or buds will take, so they will get their price for
a three-shooted rose but a two shooted-one would bring half that price,
whilst a one-shooted rose would only be bought by unknowing people who think
that even though it's a cheapoitt will give a big show, - which of course,
it doesn't.
Doug.
******



I was talking about taking
rose cuttings. I have had enough success with that to keep me happy.

[snip]

Franz

******
Horses for courses , so to speak.
Sellavee!.
Doug

Reply-To: "Franz Heymann"
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"Rod" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:44:51 +0100, "Douglas"
wrote:


In friendy spirit,
I have to disagree. Budding and grafting usually puts three scions
on to one
rootstock and done properly they all prosper and form an acceptable
show of
branches from which the usual bush develops.
It's a question of control and I can explain it better by saying
that I have
many roses, but I can illustrate my thinking by saying that I have
different
types of rose plants,.
1. Small hybrid T types.
2. Floribundas.
3. Ramblers.
4. Climbers.
5, Standards.
6. Tree Rose. A rose Tree about twelve feet high, on one bole (or
trunk) and
a large spread of branches
which at the moment are ablaze with about a hundred large rose
flowers.
All have been budded or grafted.
The point here is that the scions are attached at different
heights, the HT
at about four inches up the rootstock, the standards at about a
yard up and
the tree at 12 feet up on the top of the stock (bole or trunk).
By using simple cuttings you are restricted to only one style of
rose bush
or tree.
Rootstocks also seem to ensure much vigour for a longer time, in my
opinion,
if the pruning is carried out correctly.
Doug.

I take it you're budding these yourself Doug? AFAIK no commercial
nursery in the UK budss in the way you describe.
Standards = 3 buds at the height you want the head to develop.
Bush = One bud on the 'neck' of the rootstock as close as possible
to
the ground.
Ramblers & Climbers likewise.
Tree Rose as you describe has to be a DIY job, no nurseries do them.
Choice of rootstocks needs more space than I can give here but it's
true some stocks suit certain soil types better than others. Lots of
other factors but it usually boils down to most nurseries using R.
'Laxa' for most production, others being kept for special purposes.
In
our annual planting of around 1.25million stocks we always had
around
20,000 R. canina for late budding because the sap continued to run a
bit longer. Some nurseries who supplied roses to us from Eastern
Scotland used a lot of R. multiflora.

Personally I like certain shrub roses and most species to be on
their
own roots, only in that way are they able to show their true habit.

Thanks, Rod, for an informative contribution.
To round it off, would you care to give us your thoughts on the pros
and cons of growing hybrid teas and floribundas on their own roots?

Franz

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:15:25 +0100, "Douglas"
wrote:

The best propagators put three scions on each rootstock, so, -
apart from having the expense of providing and rooting the rootstock, it is
not sure that all grafts or buds will take, so they will get their price for
a three-shooted rose but a two shooted-one would bring half that price,
whilst a one-shooted rose would only be bought by unknowing people who think
that even though it's a cheapoitt will give a big show, - which of course,
it doesn't.
Doug.
******
Who are these propagators you're talking about Doug? I do not know any
commercial nursery that puts more than one bud on a stock for a bush
rose. That is the case for my current suppliers and was the case when
I was growing roses. When I was in the biz, takes were typically in
the high 90%s for middle of the road budders like myself - for some of
the really fast guys it might drop to the high 80s/low 90s. Our plants
graded out with most - probably 70% 3 stems, all but a few of the rest
2 stems so more than one bud is not needed (except as I said
previously for standards where 3 is the norm)
Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:34:46 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


Thanks, Rod, for an informative contribution.
To round it off, would you care to give us your thoughts on the pros
and cons of growing hybrid teas and floribundas on their own roots?

Franz

It boils down to uniformity, vigour, longer life, flower more freely.
Flower size and number varies a bit with rootstock, for example R.
multiflora gives a greater number of slightly smaller flowers but on
most soils has a slightly shorter life span. Commercially of course
considerations of availability of propagating material comes into the
calculation. A stick of wood suitable for a single hardwood cutting
typically has 5 buds suitable for budding - these are usually cut from
the maiden crop, as are the blooms for the shows. If this cutting of
budwood and show blooms is done properly you get bushier plants in the
finished crop.
Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

"Rod" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:34:46 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


Thanks, Rod, for an informative contribution.
To round it off, would you care to give us your thoughts on the
pros
and cons of growing hybrid teas and floribundas on their own roots?

Franz

It boils down to uniformity, vigour, longer life, flower more
freely.
Flower size and number varies a bit with rootstock, for example R.
multiflora gives a greater number of slightly smaller flowers but on
most soils has a slightly shorter life span. Commercially of course
considerations of availability of propagating material comes into
the
calculation. A stick of wood suitable for a single hardwood cutting
typically has 5 buds suitable for budding - these are usually cut
from
the maiden crop, as are the blooms for the shows. If this cutting of
budwood and show blooms is done properly you get bushier plants in
the
finished crop.

Thank you.Rod. Very informative, as usual.

Franz

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:15:25 +0100, "Douglas"
wrote:

The best propagators put three scions on each rootstock, so, -
apart from having the expense of providing and rooting the rootstock, it is
not sure that all grafts or buds will take, so they will get their price for
a three-shooted rose but a two shooted-one would bring half that price,
whilst a one-shooted rose would only be bought by unknowing people who think
that even though it's a cheapoitt will give a big show, - which of course,
it doesn't.
Doug.
******
Who are these propagators you're talking about Doug? I do not know any
commercial nursery that puts more than one bud on a stock for a bush
rose. That is the case for my current suppliers and was the case when
I was growing roses. When I was in the biz, takes were typically in
the high 90%s for middle of the road budders like myself - for some of
the really fast guys it might drop to the high 80s/low 90s. Our plants
graded out with most - probably 70% 3 stems, all but a few of the rest
2 stems so more than one bud is not needed (except as I said
previously for standards where 3 is the norm)
Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I have just received the latest issue of "Gardening Which". It
contains a fairly detailed report of a reasonably extensive test of
various rooting agents. My general impression is that they are not
really worth bothering with.

They tested all the hormone-based agents they could lay their
hands on, as well as a vitamin C preparation. Strangely, they appear
not to have tried salicylic acid. There are those who say that this
chemical, in the form of Aspirin or extract of willow bark, are useful
for promoting rooting. Does any urgler have some quantitative, or
semi-quantitative experience of using this?

My latest thoughts run along the lines that rooting cuttings is
essentially a race between the speed with which the root forming
process takes place, and the demise of the cuting by fungal attack.
My thoughts are strengthened by considering that the sterile
micropropagation process is able to induce growth from tiny pieces of
plant material, known to be impossible to root by other means, without
the use of rooting hormones.

This year, I will root some cuttings using only Benlate as a
fungicide, without using hormones.

Franz

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:25:41 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I have just received the latest issue of "Gardening Which". It
contains a fairly detailed report of a reasonably extensive test of
various rooting agents. My general impression is that they are not
really worth bothering with.

They tested all the hormone-based agents they could lay their
hands on, as well as a vitamin C preparation. Strangely, they appear
not to have tried salicylic acid. There are those who say that this
chemical, in the form of Aspirin or extract of willow bark, are useful
for promoting rooting. Does any urgler have some quantitative, or
semi-quantitative experience of using this?

My latest thoughts run along the lines that rooting cuttings is
essentially a race between the speed with which the root forming
process takes place, and the demise of the cuting by fungal attack.
My thoughts are strengthened by considering that the sterile
micropropagation process is able to induce growth from tiny pieces of
plant material, known to be impossible to root by other means, without
the use of rooting hormones.

This year, I will root some cuttings using only Benlate as a
fungicide, without using hormones.

I cancelled my Which? Subscription a year ago after subscribing for
about 30 years. Mainly because they doubled my subscription charge
paid by direct debit, without informing me first, but also because I
am not sure that their tests can be relied upon. I bought a Nikon885
digital camera that Which? recommended. A couple of photos of flowers
demonstrated that the reds are too intense and blues are not intense
enough. The problem cannot be corrected using Photoshop. This problem
was flagged by a magazine doing independent tests, but not by Which?
--
Martin

In message ,
writes
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:25:41 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I have just received the latest issue of "Gardening Which". It
contains a fairly detailed report of a reasonably extensive test of
various rooting agents. My general impression is that they are not
really worth bothering with.

"Gardening Which" or rooting hormones? I'm inclined to say both.

The main feature of the rooting hormones in domestic use is actually the
fungicide component rather than the hormone. Some of the chemicals that
do work are not licensed for home use.

My latest thoughts run along the lines that rooting cuttings is
essentially a race between the speed with which the root forming
process takes place, and the demise of the cuting by fungal attack.

Or succumbing to dehydration.

My thoughts are strengthened by considering that the sterile
micropropagation process is able to induce growth from tiny pieces of
plant material, known to be impossible to root by other means, without
the use of rooting hormones.

This year, I will root some cuttings using only Benlate as a
fungicide, without using hormones.

It is worth trying with and without. I have known situations where with
rooting hormone has worked when untreated failed and vice versa.

I cancelled my Which? Subscription a year ago after subscribing for
about 30 years. Mainly because they doubled my subscription charge
paid by direct debit, without informing me first, but also because I
am not sure that their tests can be relied upon.

They are usually not bad in general consumer white goods, but the
specialist magazines tend to do better reviews of photo gear.

I bought a Nikon885
digital camera that Which? recommended. A couple of photos of flowers
demonstrated that the reds are too intense and blues are not intense
enough. The problem cannot be corrected using Photoshop.

You should be able to fix that to some extent using curves on RGB
separations.

This problem
was flagged by a magazine doing independent tests, but not by Which?

Flower colours can be extremely troublesome to photographers. The worst
colours to represent accurately are typically along the magenta to
purple axis. This happens to be where the errors incurred in getting
human flesh tones to look subjectively good tend to accumulate.

It isn't just a problem for digicams either. Most colour films have a
patch of the purple - magenta colour range that is badly rendered too.
If your flower happens to have a tricky colour there is not much you can
do about it.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:43:38 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

snip

~ This year, I will root some cuttings using only Benlate as a
~ fungicide, without using hormones.

Franz, where on earth do you still get Benlate?

--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I have just received the latest issue of "Gardening Which". It
contains a fairly detailed report of a reasonably extensive test of
various rooting agents. My general impression is that they are not
really worth bothering with.

They tested all the hormone-based agents they could lay their
hands on, as well as a vitamin C preparation. Strangely, they appear
not to have tried salicylic acid. There are those who say that this
chemical, in the form of Aspirin or extract of willow bark, are useful
for promoting rooting. Does any urgler have some quantitative, or
semi-quantitative experience of using this?

My latest thoughts run along the lines that rooting cuttings is
essentially a race between the speed with which the root forming
process takes place, and the demise of the cuting by fungal attack.
My thoughts are strengthened by considering that the sterile
micropropagation process is able to induce growth from tiny pieces of
plant material, known to be impossible to root by other means, without
the use of rooting hormones.

This year, I will root some cuttings using only Benlate as a
fungicide, without using hormones.

Franz

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:25:41 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I have just received the latest issue of "Gardening Which". It
contains a fairly detailed report of a reasonably extensive test of
various rooting agents. My general impression is that they are not
really worth bothering with.

They tested all the hormone-based agents they could lay their
hands on, as well as a vitamin C preparation. Strangely, they appear
not to have tried salicylic acid. There are those who say that this
chemical, in the form of Aspirin or extract of willow bark, are useful
for promoting rooting. Does any urgler have some quantitative, or
semi-quantitative experience of using this?

My latest thoughts run along the lines that rooting cuttings is
essentially a race between the speed with which the root forming
process takes place, and the demise of the cuting by fungal attack.
My thoughts are strengthened by considering that the sterile
micropropagation process is able to induce growth from tiny pieces of
plant material, known to be impossible to root by other means, without
the use of rooting hormones.

This year, I will root some cuttings using only Benlate as a
fungicide, without using hormones.

I cancelled my Which? Subscription a year ago after subscribing for
about 30 years. Mainly because they doubled my subscription charge
paid by direct debit, without informing me first, but also because I
am not sure that their tests can be relied upon. I bought a Nikon885
digital camera that Which? recommended. A couple of photos of flowers
demonstrated that the reds are too intense and blues are not intense
enough. The problem cannot be corrected using Photoshop. This problem
was flagged by a magazine doing independent tests, but not by Which?
--
Martin

In message ,
writes
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:25:41 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I have just received the latest issue of "Gardening Which". It
contains a fairly detailed report of a reasonably extensive test of
various rooting agents. My general impression is that they are not
really worth bothering with.

"Gardening Which" or rooting hormones? I'm inclined to say both.

The main feature of the rooting hormones in domestic use is actually the
fungicide component rather than the hormone. Some of the chemicals that
do work are not licensed for home use.

My latest thoughts run along the lines that rooting cuttings is
essentially a race between the speed with which the root forming
process takes place, and the demise of the cuting by fungal attack.

Or succumbing to dehydration.

My thoughts are strengthened by considering that the sterile
micropropagation process is able to induce growth from tiny pieces of
plant material, known to be impossible to root by other means, without
the use of rooting hormones.

This year, I will root some cuttings using only Benlate as a
fungicide, without using hormones.

It is worth trying with and without. I have known situations where with
rooting hormone has worked when untreated failed and vice versa.

I cancelled my Which? Subscription a year ago after subscribing for
about 30 years. Mainly because they doubled my subscription charge
paid by direct debit, without informing me first, but also because I
am not sure that their tests can be relied upon.

They are usually not bad in general consumer white goods, but the
specialist magazines tend to do better reviews of photo gear.

I bought a Nikon885
digital camera that Which? recommended. A couple of photos of flowers
demonstrated that the reds are too intense and blues are not intense
enough. The problem cannot be corrected using Photoshop.

You should be able to fix that to some extent using curves on RGB
separations.

This problem
was flagged by a magazine doing independent tests, but not by Which?

Flower colours can be extremely troublesome to photographers. The worst
colours to represent accurately are typically along the magenta to
purple axis. This happens to be where the errors incurred in getting
human flesh tones to look subjectively good tend to accumulate.

It isn't just a problem for digicams either. Most colour films have a
patch of the purple - magenta colour range that is badly rendered too.
If your flower happens to have a tricky colour there is not much you can
do about it.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown