In message .com,
writes
'Hoggin'? What does this mean?

It's not sand, that's for sure.

It's a mixture of sand, gravel and clay that compacts down and binds
together, commonly used for easy to lay and fairly cheap paths. Seems to
be local to Southern England.

Re sand for mortar, yes AIUI soft sand is just another name for is
usually called builders sand (in the building trade anyway), which is
probably what some of the DIY sheds call bricklaying sand, though that
might be blend of builders sand and sharp sand.

A standard bricklaying mortar is builders sand and cement. For wide
joints in paving, as the OP is using, then I would use a mix of sharp
sand (called grit sand in some areas) and builders sand probably in a
3:1:1 or 2:2:1 mix of builders sand:sharp sand:cement.

Personally I wouldn't bother colouring the mortar unless the sand you
have really gives mortar that clashes. Most will likely give a grey/buff
colour that will go fine with the paving, and both will weather anyway.

Cormaic's site is a wealth of info he

http://www.pavingexpert.com/

--
Chris French and Helen Johnson, Leeds
urg Suppliers and References FAQ:
http://www.familyfrench.co.uk/garden/urgfaq/index.html

wrote:
:: I'm in the process of laying a new patio and myself and my partner
:: can't agree on what colour pointing to use.
:: The paving is Marshalls Chancery paving in Honeydew colour which is a
:: buff/blonde/yellowish colour. The design of the paving edges
:: neccessitates a 1-2cm gap between each slab.
:: I think we should go with a dyed dark colour to contrast with the
:: paving but she thinks we should use a buff colour similar to the colour
:: of the paving or use a natural grey mortar colour.
:: Any suggestions?

The suggestions so far all seem to point (excuse the pun) towards using a
natural sand & cement mixture, yet your reply timed at 12:43 says 'OK I'll
go with a coloured dye' etc.

Personally I'd go with a natural mix, mortar dyes don't work, at least not
for any length of time, they bleach with the sun and worse still, this is
rarely a uniform process, patches which are sheltered by walls and fences
etc which receive no bad weather will remain bright yellow while other
patches of it are 'natural'.

There's a picture of some here, pointed in natural sand/cement mixture...I
would reccomend ordinary red building sand and OPC mixed at a ratio of 4:1.

http://www.marshalls.co.uk/transform...ry_paving1.jpg

I lay drives and patios for a living and can tell you straight that nothing
looks worse than coloured pointing - it *never* looks right from day one and
then gets steadily worse.


HTH

--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.

Chris French and Helen Johnson wrote:
A standard bricklaying mortar is builders sand and cement. For wide
joints in paving, as the OP is using, then I would use a mix of sharp
sand (called grit sand in some areas)

I disagree - a sharp sand mortar has a coarse visual texture and a variety
of colour from the large mixed grains that fight with the texture of the
paving slab (beit stone, reconstituted tone or simple concrete) I would
ALWAYS us a soft sand and cement mortar for pointing paving.

A simple technique I have used in my garden several times is to water the
joints well, leave for an hour till the top surface is dry and then brush in
ready mixed dry sand cement mortar (kiln dried sand and cement in bags from
B&Q: Note the ready dry mix type, not that with a separate bag of cement
with semi damp sand) carefully brush all excess off the top surface using a
small hand brush and hey presto the residual moisture is drawn up into the
dry sand/cement mix and you have a nice neat recessed mortar joint. Tommy of
Ground force uses the same technique.

Not a technique to use on prestige jobs where the pointing finish is a
design element in itself, but more than ok in most general situations - and
takes a small fraction of the time wet pointing takes and is far less messy.
Good up to a 10mm joint, more and I would suggest a semi dry hand pointing
mix

pk

p.k. wrote:
:: Chris French and Helen Johnson wrote:
::: A standard bricklaying mortar is builders sand and cement. For wide
::: joints in paving, as the OP is using, then I would use a mix of sharp
::: sand (called grit sand in some areas)
::
:: I disagree - a sharp sand mortar has a coarse visual texture and a
:: variety of colour from the large mixed grains that fight with the
:: texture of the paving slab (beit stone, reconstituted tone or simple
:: concrete) I would ALWAYS us a soft sand and cement mortar for pointing
:: paving.
::

I agree.

:: A simple technique I have used in my garden several times is to water the
:: joints well, leave for an hour till the top surface is dry and then
:: brush in ready mixed dry sand cement mortar (kiln dried sand and cement
:: in bags from B&Q: Note the ready dry mix type, not that with a separate
:: bag of cement with semi damp sand) carefully brush all excess off the
:: top surface using a small hand brush and hey presto the residual
:: moisture is drawn up into the dry sand/cement mix and you have a nice
:: neat recessed mortar joint. Tommy of Ground force uses the same
:: technique.
::
I think the most telling words in this paragraph are, 'several
times'...brush pointing like this is IMV a waste of time, sand and cement.
mortar needs to be compressed, I have used this method a few times and it's
never lasted more than a few weeks, *unless* you go over it with a jointing
tool or trowel and force the mixture down, then sprinkle and brush again to
get the rest of the joint filled and trowel down again.

to try this yourself, mix a handfull of sand and cement dry and leave it in
a bucket - you can crumble it up a fortnight later with your bare hands

:: Not a technique to use on prestige jobs where the pointing finish is a
:: design element in itself, but more than ok in most general situations -
:: and takes a small fraction of the time wet pointing takes and is far
:: less messy. Good up to a 10mm joint, more and I would suggest a semi dry
:: hand pointing mix

It's good up to a 20mm joint if it's done in two or three stages, even this
takes a fraction of the time of doing it all 'manually'...to fill a 50mm
(deep) X 20 mm (wide) gap takes quite a lot of sand / cement, next time you
do it, fill it to the top and then go all over with a thin metal tube or
brickies jointer, this will give you another 20mm to fill, once brushed over
a second time, this will again drop down with the jointer, about 5 - 10mm
but it will be solid all the way down.


--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.

Phil L wrote:

I think the most telling words in this paragraph are, 'several
times'...brush pointing like this is IMV a waste of time, sand and
cement. mortar needs to be compressed, I have used this method a few
times and it's never lasted more than a few weeks, *unless* you go
over it with a jointing tool or trowel and force the mixture down,
then sprinkle and brush again to get the rest of the joint filled and
trowel down again.


I was not clear: Several times, in different locations - the oldest is now
10 years plus, completely sound and regularly pressure washed

to try this yourself, mix a handfull of sand and cement dry and leave it in
a bucket - you can crumble it up a fortnight later with your bare hands

Because the sand is not *dry* and does not flow & compact.


The key to the method is to use *kiln dried ready mix* that flows into the
cracks and crevices packing just as well (possibly even better than) a semi
dry mix well trowelled down. A normal builders sand and cement mixed by hand
will not work and will behave as you describe. ( NB I am not talking about
block paving kiln dried but the bags of dry ready mix) I does work!



pk

Phil,

I had already seen this picture
http://www.marshalls.co.uk/transform...ry_paving1.jpg

in the Marshalls catalogue/website and thought it looked very good but
assumed the 'white' colour was achieved using white cement or some sort
of dye. I find it difficult to believe that I would get that colour
using red building sand and OPC (Ordinary Portland Cement ?).
I tried a little 'test' pointing last night using some broken/waste
bits of paving and some buff dye , however this morning it still looks
like ordinary grey mortar but I think it takes a few days to cure
before the dye comes through.
I used the www.pavingexpert.com as a guide and tried to do a semi dry
mix where you add as little water as possible to get the mortar pliable
but not wet enough to stain the paving. You then scatter it over the
joint and press it down using a trowel. It seems very difficult to know
exactly how dry to keep it though. I thought it was too dry but it
still seemed to stain the paving (so I cheated and wiped it off with a
slightly damp cloth before striking it with a pointing trowel).

I think I'm beginning to be convinced to go with the natural
sand/cement mixture, I'll give it a test tonight and see what it looks
like after a few days.
Has anybody tried using white cement which should mean the pointing
ends up the colour of the sand which would be close to the colour of
the paving?

wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm in the process of laying a new patio and myself and my partner
can't agree on what colour pointing to use.
The paving is Marshalls Chancery paving in Honeydew colour which is a
buff/blonde/yellowish colour. The design of the paving edges
neccessitates a 1-2cm gap between each slab.
I think we should go with a dyed dark colour to contrast with the
paving but she thinks we should use a buff colour similar to the colour
of the paving or use a natural grey mortar colour.
Any suggestions?


IMHE the dyed pointing eventually fade with time so can become rather a
waste of money
I would just use bog standard mortar

In article ,
p.k. wrote:

The key to the method is to use *kiln dried ready mix* that flows into the
cracks and crevices packing just as well (possibly even better than) a semi
dry mix well trowelled down. A normal builders sand and cement mixed by hand
will not work and will behave as you describe. ( NB I am not talking about
block paving kiln dried but the bags of dry ready mix) I does work!

Totally unnecessary - but I agree about the normal mixtures not working.
Unless you collect from the kiln, the sand will have reached ambient
humidity by the time you buy it - those bags are NOT airtight. You
can trivially make it yourself, in the drier parts of the country and
in summer almost everywhere, by simply drying appropriate sand.

Builder's sand will produce a normal mortar. If you sieve sharp sand
though a kitchen sieve, you will get a fine sand that makes a very
porous mix and does not typically set hard. I use that, both because
it lets water through and because it is easy to remove if you need
access or to relay. You must sieve the sand when it is really dry,
and it is the right texture for using for mere sand filling of slab
or block joints.

You can also get there from builder's sand by washing it - but you end
up rejecting most of it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message . com,
writes
Phil,

I had already seen this picture
http://www.marshalls.co.uk/transform...ry_paving1.jpg

in the Marshalls catalogue/website and thought it looked very good but
assumed the 'white' colour was achieved using white cement or some sort
of dye.

I reckon they probably paint the joints whatever colour they think looks
best for the photos..... Much easier than trying to get mortar the
'right' colour

--
Chris French