I too have always noticed that the bottom of pots are filled with roots first.

So in regards to perched water tables and layered soils, is there a
possibility that layered soils will create a moist layer in the middle
of the pot, and thus an artificial "bottom of the pot" thereby filling
that layer with roots first.
thanks,

-Ethan

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Funny that this should come up just now. I'm to give a talk on "soils"
for my Gainesville Bonsai Society this weekend. I took this as an
opportunity to do a little experimentation. I built a box about (4" x
4" x 6" high) out of clear plastic, marking the height on the inside for
measuring. The bottom was made out of my standard pot screen (7x7 space
plastic canvas). I figured that if there was a perch, it would be at
the screen and that this would most nearly represent my potting
condition.

As a result, any of the "soil" material which did not go through a
standard window screen, did not perch. Material tested we pea
gravel, perlite (expanded shale, I think), vermiculite (expanded mica?),
baked clay (similar to Turface), shredded pine bark and peat moss
(unscreened, i.e. straight out of the bag). Only the peat moss perched
over the screen, about 1" high.

I then tried the peat moss over both the pea gravel and the perlite (two
different tests). As advertised, the peat moss perched over both but as
the water passed slowly through the peat moss, the pea gravel and
perlite both drained quickly.

Please note that the tests were made with total bottom screening. I
have not yet done the tests with just a partial drain hole in the
bottom. That might make a difference.

My analysis of the tests is that perching can indeed occur in bonsai
pots but the "soil" material would have to be fine enough that capillary
action can take place. If no fines are allowed, no drainage problems
should occur in a properly built pot. However, if a high percentage of
fine material is used in the mix (such as peat moss for azalea mixes)
then a drainage layer might be a positive benefit. In this case, I
think I would use a deeper than normal pot to allow the drainage layer
enough space to be effective and give the roots some breathing space.

It was fun to see "inside" a pot!! Have fun - jay


Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a -

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Snipes ]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:44 PM
Subject: Question and advice please ... Bonsai Soil

Of course a perched water table can be a bad thing, but I don't think
that
bonsai pots with layered soil end up with enough of a defined layer size

differential to actually create one; I think the layers get somewhat
blended, especially with all the action of working soil in around the
roots,
etc. when potting. Therefore, I think that layered soil in a bonsai pot

does no harm.

---------- CLIP ----------
Marty layers his soil and notices a preponderance of roots in the bottom
of
his pots in the drainage layer. I don't layer my soil, and I use a mix
similar to Marty's, i.e. crushed lava rock in the 1/8" to 3/8" range,
and I
also notice a preponderance of roots in the bottom of my pots. I think
this
is a normal situation because it is always moister there, drainage layer
or
not.

My conclusion is that if one uses a coarse, free draining soil mix
layering
the soil will probably do no harm, and will also probably be of no
additional benefit.
---------- CLIP ----------

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On Sep 11, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Roger Snipes wrote:

I am familiar with Boon's soil mix, and know it to be a good mix. I
guess I am wondering if your trees would do just as well with
unlayered Boon's mix as with layered Boon's mix.

First, I should clarify that I am only using two layers: a layer of
5/16 lava (perhaps 3/8" deep?) in the bottom, then Boon's mix to fill
the pot. Sometimes I will add smaller soil particles or chopped spagnum
on top if I feel the particular plant needs more protection from being
dried out.

I have not tried to evaluate how the drainage layer affects my trees.
Perhaps Boon has. I have simply adopted it as my standard practice. I
also follow Boon's method of repotting, which is different that
whatever I had seen before. I highly recommend that you take a
repotting workshop with Boon, if you get the opportunity. It isn't that
he has secret methods, just that he knows precisely what steps he wants
done, in what order and to what degree. And the results are wonderful.
I will always have more to learn, but I am now confident that I can
quickly & competently repot my trees (& it only took me 25 years to
learn how!).

Jim

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The short answer from my experiment is "yes". The layer of peat moss
was still wet this morning (not moist but actually holding free water).
I watered last night and included the experiment box. Holding water
overnight in one layer is not free draining.

Whether the wet layer will act as an artificial "bottom of the pot" is
open to conjecture but the wet layer can't be good for the roots.

Have fun - jay


Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a -


-----Original Message-----
From: Ethan Smith ]

I too have always noticed that the bottom of pots are filled with roots
first.

So in regards to perched water tables and layered soils, is there a
possibility that layered soils will create a moist layer in the middle
of the pot, and thus an artificial "bottom of the pot" thereby filling
that layer with roots first.
thanks,

-Ethan

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Jim Lewis wrote:


I find it interesting that the students of a major artist are still
taught this method. And many member of my club swear by putting a
drainage layer in pots. Not trying to start any arguements just an
observation.

Bill


Well, it has worked for "hundreds" of years. We know now that water
flows through much easier if there are NO widely different soil layers,
but it probably doesn't make a lot of difference in the long run.
Roots, the actual flow of water through the soil, the actual act of
planting the tree in the pot, and other factors probably mix most of the
layers (except perhaps for the worst one -- the large pebbles in the
bottom) anyway.
moreover small particles tends to be carried
down by watering and clog if the

mix is all the same saze , and roots tends to
run deep on theh pot surface this is why for a
better drainage and aeration and watering is
adviced to have a layer of coarse drainage .. if
roots rot sets in is a real pain in the neck and
when you loose a valuable plant you have
understood how useful it is, for once and for all!
!

Jim Gremel wrote:

On Sep 10, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Bill Neff wrote:


In a message dated 9/6/2005 4:22:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
writes:

I find it interesting that the students of a major artist are still
taught
this method.
Bill


Boon is my teacher. He is certainly "a major artist", and he says to
put a drainage layer in the bottom of our pots. I believe it is
standard practice in Japan.

Sometime I hear or read that layered soils are bad because they will
create "perched water tables". I think every horticultural student
"learns" this. I would never want to buck science (even though that
seems to be a major sport in our country right now), but I would ask
the anti-layerers why layered soils work so well. After all, the best
and healthiest bonsai in the world have layered soils; so, why do they
work?

Actually, I am only mildly curious about it. I didn't layer the soil
for my first couple of decades. Now I do, using Boon's soil recipes, &
my trees are healthier than ever.

Jim

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Could you tell me where I could find information on Boon's soil recipes?
Thanks

Gordon B
Aotearoa/New Zealand

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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For a very good discussion of soil mix, and Boon's mix in particular, take a
look at this thread on the IBC Gallery he
http://internetbonsaiclub.org/compon.../topic,5966.0/

Regards,
Roger Snipes
Spokane, WA. Zone 5-ish

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Bowers"

Could you tell me where I could find information on Boon's soil recipes?
Thanks

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On Sep 15, 2005, at 5:15 AM, Gordon Bowers wrote:

Could you tell me where I could find information on Boon's soil
recipes?
Thanks

Gordon B
Aotearoa/New Zealand

Earlier in the thread I wrote:

Boon's mixes are (1) equal parts of akadama, lava rock & pumice for
conifers, and (2) 2 parts akadama, 1 part lava rock & 1 part pumice for
deciduous trees. Boon also adds a little each of decomposed granite and
charcoal. I haven't started to use DG or charcoal, but I probably will.

Also, Carl Bergstrom, a Boon student (or Student Of Boon, SOB, as we
sometimes refer to ourselves) had a lengthy thread in the Main Gallery
on February 9, 2005, titled The Importance of Proper Soil. He discussed
what his experience was with Boon's soil & showed many images.

Jim, who does as Boon says (well..... mostly)

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I have followed this thread: there is no optimal soil mix. It is ALWAYS a combination of environment, species, and the individual practitioner's approach to watering. For this reason, most of us are use different component to meet our particular needs.

I will say this to the group: less is always more. Do not ignore soil science; however, simplify the science while focusing intensely on the art.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Gremel
To:
Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:38:51 -0700
Subject: [IBC] Question and advice please ... Bonsai Soil


On Sep 15, 2005, at 5:15 AM, Gordon Bowers wrote:

Could you tell me where I could find information on Boon's soil recipes?
Thanks

Gordon B
Aotearoa/New Zealand

Earlier in the thread I wrote:

Boon's mixes are (1) equal parts of akadama, lava rock & pumice for conifers, and (2) 2 parts akadama, 1 part lava rock & 1 part pumice for deciduous trees. Boon also adds a little each of decomposed granite and charcoal. I haven't started to use DG or charcoal, but I probably will.

Also, Carl Bergstrom, a Boon student (or Student Of Boon, SOB, as we sometimes refer to ourselves) had a lengthy thread in the Main Gallery on February 9, 2005, titled The Importance of Proper Soil. He discussed what his experience was with Boon's soil & showed many images.

Jim, who does as Boon says (well..... mostly)

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************************************************** ******************************
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I have found resources for the lava rock. Can anyone recommend a
good source for agricultural pumice?

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org

-----Original Message-----
On Sep 15, 2005, at 5:15 AM, Gordon Bowers wrote:
Could you tell me where I could find information on Boon's soil
recipes?
Thanks
Gordon B
Aotearoa/New Zealand

From: Jim Gremel
Earlier in the thread I wrote:

Boon's mixes are (1) equal parts of akadama, lava rock & pumice
for
conifers, and (2) 2 parts akadama, 1 part lava rock & 1 part
pumice for
deciduous trees. Boon also adds a little each of decomposed
granite and
charcoal. I haven't started to use DG or charcoal, but I probably
will.

Also, Carl Bergstrom, a Boon student (or Student Of Boon, SOB, as
we
sometimes refer to ourselves) had a lengthy thread in the Main
Gallery
on February 9, 2005, titled The Importance of Proper Soil. He
discussed
what his experience was with Boon's soil & showed many images.

Jim, who does as Boon says (well..... mostly)

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