In a message dated 8/9/2005 9:10:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

What about commercially available organic fert cakes?

As Jim Lewis will point out. Organic is not always better. You want
the fertilizer to be available to the tree ASAP, organic has to break down
first.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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In a message dated 8/9/2005 9:23:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

As Jim Lewis will point out. Organic is not always better. You want
the fertilizer to be available to the tree ASAP, organic has to break down
first.



Both organic and chemical fertilizers place crucial roles in the development
of bonsai. Without delving into inordinate detail in this brief message,
organic cakes are indispensable for those of you who are growing bonsai in
akadama soil. Akadama does not effectively transfer nutrients to the bonsai's
root system (low cation exchange ratio), so the constant presence of a
slow-release fertilizer fuels desirable growth.

For immature trees, I would agree that chemical fertilizers accelerate
growth. For mature trees (trees that have achieved their design objective),
organics assist in maintaining the tree's design while keeping it healthy.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob

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In a message dated 8/9/2005 10:40:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

As Jim Lewis will point out. Organic is not always better. You want
the fertilizer to be available to the tree ASAP, organic has to break down
first.

Both organic and chemical fertilizers place crucial roles in the development

of bonsai.

Michael
I agree, but this guy had a sick, neglected Juniper and I think he needed
nutrition to the tree now, not after an organic could break down.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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I just got a stressed juniper and thought organic cakes would be a gentle
time released fertilizer. My thinking is to stimulate the roots as the
priority while using organic cakes for a little, time released, nutrition.
Then ease into regular fertilizer after the tree seems de-stressed. Normally
I'd just use a weak fertilizer solution for a while but I'm trying to be
extra careful.

[note: see my post titled "new juniper - stressed - need help with plan of
attack" for pictures of the tree in question]

Speaking of superfeeding cake recipes... What's your current recipe? Or
even your latest published recipe? All I have is your original recipe.

Best,
John

"Michael Persiano" wrote in message
...

In a message dated 8/9/2005 9:23:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

As Jim Lewis will point out. Organic is not always better. You want
the fertilizer to be available to the tree ASAP, organic has to break
down
first.



Both organic and chemical fertilizers place crucial roles in the
development
of bonsai. Without delving into inordinate detail in this brief message,
organic cakes are indispensable for those of you who are growing bonsai
in
akadama soil. Akadama does not effectively transfer nutrients to the
bonsai's
root system (low cation exchange ratio), so the constant presence of a
slow-release fertilizer fuels desirable growth.

For immature trees, I would agree that chemical fertilizers accelerate
growth. For mature trees (trees that have achieved their design
objective),
organics assist in maintaining the tree's design while keeping it
healthy.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob

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John Dhom wrote:
Thought someone might have his latest, published, recipe (or reference/link
to same). All I have is one many years old. I have sent him the request.

I'm interested in Persiano's recipe to try his superfeeding approach since
most of my material is in training.

I'm interested in organic cakes for use with a stressed juniper I got
recently (see my plea for help titled "new juniper - stressed - need help
with plan of attack"). Do you see benefit in this application? Do you think
regular fertilizer would be just as effective?

Best,
John

First -- Fertilizer is NOT medicine for trees. If I recall,
you had some yellowing branches, and ants (among other
problems??).

You were advised to look for borers (?), and to remove the
brown foliage.

I'd suggest looking hard for spider mites, too -- and
aphids, or scale, both of which encourage ants.

If the ants are in the soil of your pot, submerge the pot in
water overnight. A lot of the ants will climb into the
foliage, of course, but a pyrethrin spray (or Ortho Home and
Garden) will take care of those. Tilt the pot when you
bring it out of the water to encourage drainage. Overnight
in water won't hurt the tree. If the soil the tree is
planted in looks crusty and ancient, you could carefully
wash off the upper layers and add new soil. Don't remove
enough to constitute a "repotting." Water the new soil in well.

Now is the time to give it a standard-brand 20-20-20 (or
thereabouts; the exact numbers aren't important) fertilizer.
Follow label directions. Set the tree in part shade
(morning sun).

Keep an eye on it for the rest of the summer, then protect
it from hard freezes over the winter. By spring you should
be able to repot.

Good luck.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we
see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to
use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County
Almanac

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snip
First -- Fertilizer is NOT medicine for trees. If I recall, you had some
yellowing branches, and ants (among other problems??).
You were advised to look for borers (?), and to remove the brown foliage.
I'd suggest looking hard for spider mites, too -- and aphids, or scale,
both of which encourage ants.

Agreed. Detailed inspection and treatment for ants is first order of
business.



If the ants are in the soil of your pot, submerge the pot in water
overnight. A lot of the ants will climb into the foliage, of course, but
a pyrethrin spray (or Ortho Home and Garden) will take care of those.
Tilt the pot when you bring it out of the water to encourage drainage.
Overnight in water won't hurt the tree. If the soil the tree is planted
in looks crusty and ancient, you could carefully wash off the upper layers
and add new soil. Don't remove enough to constitute a "repotting." Water
the new soil in well.

I like this approach as I'm unsure what shape the roots are in. Will look
for a container big enough to soak it today.

Now is the time to give it a standard-brand 20-20-20 (or thereabouts; the
exact numbers aren't important) fertilizer. Follow label directions. Set
the tree in part shade (morning sun).

I see, you think it's ok to start normal fertilizer now.

Keep an eye on it for the rest of the summer, then protect it from hard
freezes over the winter. By spring you should be able to repot.

Understood. Winter storage is yet another project... just moved to a new
place last week

Good luck.

Thanks,

John

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a
community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and
respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac

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In a message dated 8/11/2005 2:57:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

If you grow pines for bonsai the book is a worthwhile investment.

Kits

John Dhom wrote:
thx info. I'll just use an alternative as I can't afford to buy a book just
for this receipe

Best,
John



John:

Please do not buy the book for a cake recipe: the recipe follows. However,
if you are seeking a solid reference work on how to develop Japanese white
and black pine, I would welcome the purchase. );-) Kitsune, I appreciate the
kind remark.

If you have any questions about the cakes, please contact me. Be certain to
use a FAST DRAINING SOIL. You will have remarkable root mass development,
so you will need to more frequently repot your trees. The cakes should be
applied to immature bonsai, bonsai that have yet to achieve their design
objectives. After developing sufficient growth to support your design, I would
suggest migrating to a liquid fertilizers.

Those of you who are using these cakes with pines should consider potting
you trees in Akadama. The results will be outstanding.

Superfeeding cake recipe:

* 3 parts cottonseed meal (acidic)
* 2 parts garden lime (alkaline)
* 1 part blood meal (nitrogen and iron)
* 1 part bone meal (phosphorus) *
* Mixing solution of full-strength Schultz 20-30-20 and water
* Fish emulsion-5 ounces for every 5 pounds of dry ingredients
* A splash of Sevin (for insecticidal purposes)
Procedure for making Superfeeding cakes:
1. Mix the first four ingredients
2. Add all of the liquids to the dry ingredients except the Sevin until
the consistency of cooked oatmeal is reached.
3. Wearing a pair of gloves, add the Sevin to the mixture.
4. Spread the fertilizer over an aluminum foil-covered wire rack or
flat tray, cut the fertilizer into 1.5-inch squares with the moistened length of
a paint stirrer, and set the scored rack in the sun to dry.
5. Once the cakes have completely dried, snap the squares away and
place them in a container for future use. The cakes will keep for many years if
they are kept dry.
Part = a dry cup measure


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Mike,
I had a few comments/ideas.

I always wondered about using the full strength Shutz in the slow release
fertilizer cake recipe?? Seems, redundent and cross purpose?

I USED TO ad liquid kelp/seaweed ( the most expensive ingrediant) but now ad
KELP MEAL, costs a little less but gives more bulk which liquid doesn't.
5lb. meal means 5 lb. more cakes.
Also, I always liked adding that Alaske brand Upstart stuff w/B1 to the mix,
it's made from Molasses.

Also, as I mention in my recipe I published, I don't use the sevin. I never
really had a maggot problem ( they wouldn't hurt/bother me anyway) but My
DOGS just love the cakes! Ummm Good! So I'd be afraid to have it in them if
pets and reachable bonsai.

I pat mine out in old hospital cafeteria trays about 1/2" deep and use
saran wrap on the tray. Just spritz a fine mist on tray and lay wrap on it
and it sticks and won't move. I pull it off with first "Flip". And I use a
pizza cutter to quickly/easily cut them.

Another note, they dry too slow if done when rainy period and/or too humid
and can mold pretty quick ( which doesn't hurt them one bit but people
seemed bothered by the loks) so I make them when I have about 4 days knowing
it will be warm/hot, low humidity with no rain.

I dry mine in my unused greenhouse during summer. Had some trouble with
racoons getting in the 25 or so trays if I left the doors open. They LOVE
that fish emulsion.!!Found the cure for that, I put a radio out there and
let play all night low so neighbors don't hear. No more racoons.

Hope this helps folks,
Dale

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Persiano"
Subject: [IBC] Organic feeding cakes
Superfeeding cake recipe:

* 3 parts cottonseed meal (acidic)
* 2 parts garden lime (alkaline)
* 1 part blood meal (nitrogen and iron)
* 1 part bone meal (phosphorus) *
* Mixing solution of full-strength Schultz 20-30-20 and water
* Fish emulsion-5 ounces for every 5 pounds of dry ingredients
* A splash of Sevin (for insecticidal purposes)
Procedure for making Superfeeding cakes:
1. Mix the first four ingredients
2. Add all of the liquids to the dry ingredients except the Sevin
until
the consistency of cooked oatmeal is reached.
3. Wearing a pair of gloves, add the Sevin to the mixture.
4. Spread the fertilizer over an aluminum foil-covered wire rack or
flat tray, cut the fertilizer into 1.5-inch squares with the moistened
length of
a paint stirrer, and set the scored rack in the sun to dry.
5. Once the cakes have completely dried, snap the squares away and
place them in a container for future use. The cakes will keep for many
years if
they are kept dry.
Part = a dry cup measure

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Subject: [IBC] Organic feeding cakes

I forgot one thing.
To a wheelbarrow full of mix ( how I make it up) I add 10lbs. of processed
flour. CHEAP!! but it makes them stickyable , just like cookies, and allows
them to dry harder which slows down dissolving time. With that amount of
flour added to a wheelbarrow full they get hard enough that your finger nail
goes into them hard. I find that is just about PERFECT!

In fact, a few customers have been bugging me about making some, maybe I
better...
Although pottery smells better!
Regards,
Dale

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Also, as I mention in my recipe I published, I don't use the sevin. I
never
really had a maggot problem ( they wouldn't hurt/bother me anyway) but My
DOGS just love the cakes! Ummm Good! So I'd be afraid to have it in them if
pets and reachable bonsai.

Sevin dust is used on dogs for fleas... you can also use it on them and
other animals for mites (like rabbits and guinea pigs and poultry and goats
etc)... if you're using a little of the sevin dust 5% or 10% I wouldn't
worry about the puppies -the dogs that are treated with it lick it off and
it doesn't hurt them. The 5% is what you use on rabbits and other small
critters... works well too!


I dry mine in my unused greenhouse during summer. Had some trouble with
racoons getting in the 25 or so trays if I left the doors open. They LOVE
that fish emulsion.!!Found the cure for that, I put a radio out there and
let play all night low so neighbors don't hear. No more racoons.

Hope this helps folks,
Dale
When using the radio trick, changing the station every week or so keeps it
effective-I used it for scaring away bobcats and foxes and raccoons but
found after 10 days or so of the same station they seemed to get used to
it...... my racoons etc are pretty darn smart though

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Hi Michael,

Thx info! I do use a fast draining mix. I'll consider Akadama when I repot
my pines.

Best,
John