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#1
03-10-2005, 06:10 PM
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[IBC] soil particles
Hello all,
As a someone fairly new to the obsession we all call bonsai I have been following the soil thread with great interest as I begin to get the components I would like to use in the soil mixes for my repotting next spring. I want to start getting the right type and size components, both organic and inorganic. I was curious about the size I should be using for the inorganic soil components that will be used in the mix. Most of my plants that I have now are at least shohin size or larger. I have some Japanese maples, Junipers (nana), pines (japanese black and scots), mugo pine, hinoki cypress, chamycypheris, japanese boxwood, podocarpus, ulmus (chinese and siberian), pomegranete, ficus, carmonophylla, bougainvilla, buttonwood and a serissa. I was thinking of trying to incorporate Akadama into my mixes this coming year and was looking for input from the group. I live in zone 7 on Long Island, New York. Thanks in advance for all your input. Vinny ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#3
04-10-2005, 12:52 PM
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Jay mentioned Oil Dri and how some of it turns to mush. I contacted the
company about telling which is the good stuff: "Steve, Per your question: “Many of us bonsai enthusiasts would like to use your products as potting medium, but have had inconsistent results. As I understand it, some of your stuff is used for cat litter which will not hold up over time while other packages work well. Which product should we buy?” You are correct in that we produce 2 ‘types’ of clay. This Division manufactures a branded “Oil-Dri Premium” clay as well as a generic version. Based on your application, you should look for our branded clay, which is a 100% calcined product. In a nutshell, the manufacturing process turns the clay into a ground ceramic (calcined) which will retain it’s granular shape after repeated absorption. Our non-branded product is a blend with kitty litter, which is a non-calcined product. In PA you can purchase our 40 lb. branded product from Pep Boys, Sam’s Club (private label), and Wal-Mart (10# bag, auto. dept.). If you have any additional questions or difficulty finding a distributor please call or e-mail me. Thank you for your interest in our products. Regards,Scott Hamming Zone Manager Industrial & Automotive Group Oil-Dri Corporation of America (800) 233-1959 ext. 2518" I was glad to see that the stuff I bought was Premium. Regards, Steve On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Beckenbach,Joseph R wrote: I've watched the threads on bonsai soils with interest as I have just given a talk on materials for growing bonsai to my local club. Please take the following thoughts with the required "grain of salt" as I've only been doing bonsai for about 5 years. First, the only consistent I've found in discussions of bonsai soil is that it must be free draining. If it isn't, take it out and start over. Second, the whole subject of soil is so complex with interrelated factors that there doesn't seem to be any reasonable possibility that a "cook-book" statement of what is bonsai soil is possible. You'll have to look over the possibilities and make your best guess as to what soil will work for you and your condition. Sorry about that but that appears to be the facts of bonsai life. Guess, try, correct seems to be the only way you can find out. The result of this is that your mistakes will not survive. Try to keep is simple and keep records. Third, since you are experimenting, work with cheap materials. I'm still in my "kill a weed" phase so I dig a lot of landscape material which I think will have good potential. If I guess wrong, the failure goes out with the yard trimmings. The successes will eventually go into bonsai pots and MAY eventually become something interesting. Now, bonsai soil materials. I keep screened (mostly) material separate and then mix for the specific plant. As a result, I have multiple buckets and cans in my potting shed. Here's what I have and why: Perlite - It's white, ugly and floats. It's also very cheap and holds moisture while being fast draining. I use it as part of mixes for newly collected plants and those still needing much development. In these cases, the material works very well. I don't think I'll ever use it in a bonsai pot but I can't do without it for collected material which will be totally bare-rooted when potted into training pots for style development. I get it at my local big-box store, Home Depot, although possibly obtainable from your nursery supplier in small quantities. Vermiculite - Pretty much the same as perlite except not so ugly and white and doesn't seem to float. Usable for smaller collected material and perhaps for very small bonsai and companion plants. Some of these smaller pots may actually have vermiculite as a component if I anticipate annual re-potting. If the mix seems to break down too fast, then I discontinue it for that plant at the next re-pot. Also obtained at a big-box store or nursery. Peat moss (or Moss peat for the European contingent) - Dangerous stuff which I only use for acid- and moisture-loving plants, specifically, azaleas. It is very fine and I do not sift it but I also only use a small amount as a mix component, say 5%-10%. Again, a big-box store or nursery purchase. Now the main stuff: Baked Clay - This is the Turface, Terragreen, Mule Mix, etc. stuff. It drains very well but holds moisture as the water does soak into the individual particles. I use it as one of two main, inorganic, components. If I have a plant which likes water, then this is the main component. I get it at an auto parts store. I go in and ask for a bag of "oil-dri". Since Turface (I think, although it might be Terragreen) is made by the Oil-Dri Corporation, the stuff is usually the same as the bakes clay products everyone is recommended. There is one caveat, the stuff is also used as kitty litter. Kitty litter is NOT the same, although baked clay can be used for kitty litter. How to I tell the difference? I screen some (to remove the fines) and put it in a jar of water. After a few days, the kitty litter stuff turns to mush, suitable only for muck on slab plantings. If it hasn't turned to mush in a few weeks, then it's baked hard. I have yet to have a bag I've gotten from an auto parts store fail this test. Since it is used to soak up oil on a garage floor, the usual auto parts store doesn't want it to become mush either. If it did, then the garage people couldn't sweep it up and would not deal with that auto parts store any more. Here is one of the "grain of salt" points. I have not been doing this long enough to have a pot which has not been re-potted for 5-10 years. Some pines may have this long a re-potting schedule. Pea Gravel - The other inorganic component, screened to eliminate anything over 1/4" and fines. I use this where the plant wants dryer soil. I always want some moisture holding component, so this is usually used in conjunction with the baked clay. I get this from my local nursery. I check the bag to see that most of the gravel is less than 1/4". Shredded Bark - The organic component. This is the tough one for me. I use to get bags of "organic soil conditioner" but haven't seen this recently. What I'm now doing is to take pine bark mulch and put it through a garden shredder. Since this device seems to be hard to come by, I can not recommend any replacement. Perhaps your local big box store or nursery can order the "organic soil conditioner" for you. Good luck on this component and let me know what you've found as I'm tired of shredding bark. Either way, screen the end result. Now that you've got stuff, mix it in proportion depending on your plant's individual needs. I use Naka's book and Herb Gustafson's to get an initial mix ratio. The books which tell me to use "loam" or 'garden soil" are not a big help to me as essentially I'm using a "soil-less" mix. Good luck and have fun - jay Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a - ************************************************** ********************* ********* ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ********************* ********* -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#4
05-10-2005, 02:54 PM
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Well, not really. What I said was:
"I get it at an auto parts store. I go in and ask for a bag of "oil-dri". Since Turface (I think, although it might be Terragreen) is made by the Oil-Dri Corporation, the stuff is usually the same as the bakes clay products everyone is recommended. There is one caveat, the stuff is also used as kitty litter. Kitty litter is NOT the same, although baked clay can be used for kitty litter...." I then went on to give you a simple test to make sure that you got "the good stuff". Since the auto parts stores may not get their product from the Oil-dri Corporation, I would strongly recommend doing the test. I do, every time and regardless of manufacturer. Allow me to add that I have NEVER had a bag of this stuff fail the test if I got it from an auto parts store regardless of manufacturer. My original post explains why. I have also NEVER had a bag of kitty litter from the grocery or pet store pass this test. Usually the kitty litter fails in a matter of minutes. I have one jar of the stuff from an auto parts store for over a year now and it's still good. Another option is to buy the pre-mixed soil. This costs about $5 per gallon (plus shipping if you get it off the internet). I get about 15 gallons from two bags and they cost about $10 or about $0.67 per gallon plus I ship it in the trunk of my car. Your choice. The pre-mixed is also pre-screened and "portion controlled", i.e. ready to use. Thank you but I'd rather control what I use on my trees depending on their stage, specie, etc. and I don't mind the hour or so it takes to screen the product. Have fun - jay Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a - -----Original Message----- From: Steve Peterson ] Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 7:52 AM Subject: soil particles Jay mentioned Oil Dri and how some of it turns to mush. I contacted the company about telling which is the good stuff: "Steve, Per your question: "Many of us bonsai enthusiasts would like to use your products as potting medium, but have had inconsistent results. As I understand it, some of your stuff is used for cat litter which will not hold up over time while other packages work well. Which product should we buy?" You are correct in that we produce 2 'types' of clay. This Division manufactures a branded "Oil-Dri Premium" clay as well as a generic version. Based on your application, you should look for our branded clay, which is a 100% calcined product. In a nutshell, the manufacturing process turns the clay into a ground ceramic (calcined) which will retain it's granular shape after repeated absorption. Our non-branded product is a blend with kitty litter, which is a non-calcined product. In PA you can purchase our 40 lb. branded product from Pep Boys, Sam's Club (private label), and Wal-Mart (10# bag, auto. dept.). If you have any additional questions or difficulty finding a distributor please call or e-mail me. Thank you for your interest in our products. Regards,Scott Hamming Zone Manager Industrial & Automotive Group Oil-Dri Corporation of America (800) 233-1959 ext. 2518" I was glad to see that the stuff I bought was Premium. Regards, Steve On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Beckenbach,Joseph R wrote: I've watched the threads on bonsai soils with interest as I have just given a talk on materials for growing bonsai to my local club. Please take the following thoughts with the required "grain of salt" as I've only been doing bonsai for about 5 years. First, the only consistent I've found in discussions of bonsai soil is that it must be free draining. If it isn't, take it out and start over. Second, the whole subject of soil is so complex with interrelated factors that there doesn't seem to be any reasonable possibility that a "cook-book" statement of what is bonsai soil is possible. You'll have to look over the possibilities and make your best guess as to what soil will work for you and your condition. Sorry about that but that appears to be the facts of bonsai life. Guess, try, correct seems to be the only way you can find out. The result of this is that your mistakes will not survive. Try to keep is simple and keep records. Third, since you are experimenting, work with cheap materials. I'm still in my "kill a weed" phase so I dig a lot of landscape material which I think will have good potential. If I guess wrong, the failure goes out with the yard trimmings. The successes will eventually go into bonsai pots and MAY eventually become something interesting. Now, bonsai soil materials. I keep screened (mostly) material separate and then mix for the specific plant. As a result, I have multiple buckets and cans in my potting shed. Here's what I have and why: Perlite - It's white, ugly and floats. It's also very cheap and holds moisture while being fast draining. I use it as part of mixes for newly collected plants and those still needing much development. In these cases, the material works very well. I don't think I'll ever use it in a bonsai pot but I can't do without it for collected material which will be totally bare-rooted when potted into training pots for style development. I get it at my local big-box store, Home Depot, although possibly obtainable from your nursery supplier in small quantities. Vermiculite - Pretty much the same as perlite except not so ugly and white and doesn't seem to float. Usable for smaller collected material and perhaps for very small bonsai and companion plants. Some of these smaller pots may actually have vermiculite as a component if I anticipate annual re-potting. If the mix seems to break down too fast, then I discontinue it for that plant at the next re-pot. Also obtained at a big-box store or nursery. Peat moss (or Moss peat for the European contingent) - Dangerous stuff which I only use for acid- and moisture-loving plants, specifically, azaleas. It is very fine and I do not sift it but I also only use a small amount as a mix component, say 5%-10%. Again, a big-box store or nursery purchase. Now the main stuff: Baked Clay - This is the Turface, Terragreen, Mule Mix, etc. stuff. It drains very well but holds moisture as the water does soak into the individual particles. I use it as one of two main, inorganic, components. If I have a plant which likes water, then this is the main component. I get it at an auto parts store. I go in and ask for a bag of "oil-dri". Since Turface (I think, although it might be Terragreen) is made by the Oil-Dri Corporation, the stuff is usually the same as the bakes clay products everyone is recommended. There is one caveat, the stuff is also used as kitty litter. Kitty litter is NOT the same, although baked clay can be used for kitty litter. How to I tell the difference? I screen some (to remove the fines) and put it in a jar of water. After a few days, the kitty litter stuff turns to mush, suitable only for muck on slab plantings. If it hasn't turned to mush in a few weeks, then it's baked hard. I have yet to have a bag I've gotten from an auto parts store fail this test. Since it is used to soak up oil on a garage floor, the usual auto parts store doesn't want it to become mush either. If it did, then the garage people couldn't sweep it up and would not deal with that auto parts store any more. Here is one of the "grain of salt" points. I have not been doing this long enough to have a pot which has not been re-potted for 5-10 years. Some pines may have this long a re-potting schedule. Pea Gravel - The other inorganic component, screened to eliminate anything over 1/4" and fines. I use this where the plant wants dryer soil. I always want some moisture holding component, so this is usually used in conjunction with the baked clay. I get this from my local nursery. I check the bag to see that most of the gravel is less than 1/4". Shredded Bark - The organic component. This is the tough one for me. I use to get bags of "organic soil conditioner" but haven't seen this recently. What I'm now doing is to take pine bark mulch and put it through a garden shredder. Since this device seems to be hard to come by, I can not recommend any replacement. Perhaps your local big box store or nursery can order the "organic soil conditioner" for you. Good luck on this component and let me know what you've found as I'm tired of shredding bark. Either way, screen the end result. Now that you've got stuff, mix it in proportion depending on your plant's individual needs. I use Naka's book and Herb Gustafson's to get an initial mix ratio. The books which tell me to use "loam" or 'garden soil" are not a big help to me as essentially I'm using a "soil-less" mix. Good luck and have fun - jay Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a - ************************************************** ********************* ********* ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ********************* ********* -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ********************** ******** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ********************** ******** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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