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[IBC] soil
I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept of
soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture, there needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort of organic OR inorganic soil for water retention? Thanks alot, I am still trying to clear up my understanding of the right way to mix soil. - Colin Horn Orinda, CA __________________________________________________ _______________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy...n.asp?cid=3963 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#2
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[IBC] soil
Morning to All,
Colin, I have for years based my bonsai soils on, [1] Inorganic and [2] Organic. Inorganic - [a] Able to hold water within it self. - example - crushed sifted red brick [b] Able to hold water around itself. example - crushed sifted quartz gravel. [Neither of the above inorganic will decay or be chemically eroded easily.Also easiest to obtain down here in the West Indies/Caribbean]. Organic - can be - sifted compost or sifted manure. Now testing the addition of some coco peat. _________________________________ Able to retain moisture,but freely draining. The above can be substituted for, with local ingredients. You will have to talk to others around your area. Sensitivity, to local climatic conditions is important, and gain the experience from just growing trees long before you begin to really train them. Khaimraj [ West Indies/Caribbean, Sempre Spring Zone.] -----Original Message----- From: Colin Horn To: Date: 23 April 2003 20:07 Subject: [IBC] soil I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept of soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture, there needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort of organic OR inorganic soil for water retention? Thanks alot, I am still trying to clear up my understanding of the right way to mix soil. - Colin Horn Orinda, CA ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#4
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[IBC] soil
At 08:07 PM 4/23/03 -0700, Colin Horn wrote:
I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept of soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture, there needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort of organic OR inorganic soil for water retention? Thanks alot, I am still trying to clear up my understanding of the right way to mix soil. - Colin Horn Orinda, CA Colin Folks tend to make container soil practice a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Yes, you could take a college course on soils, but you could also learn the basics in a few minutes. Getting an actual _feel_ for wha'ts right and what's not takes a lot longer, but is not essential for making a soil that works. The basics: a container soil has to breathe (aeration), it must retain water, it must support the plant structurally. That's about it. It's nice if it retains NPK and minor and trace elements, but even that can be corrected with fertilizer practice. Aeration and water retention are often at odds with each other, that is the major reason that most soils contain both organic and inorganic amendments. It is not strictly necessary. Plants will grow just fine in straight fir bark, I have done it. Plants will grow just fine in pure minerals, i.e. akadama. That doesn't mean that each of these methods doesn't have problems or characteristics that must be accounted for. An all organic soil with have problems with soil deterioration and possible collapse (so will any soil mixture with organic portions for that matter), and an inorganic only soil will have problems with moisture retention and/or fertilizer retention. Because of the above considerations, MOST container soils will consist of approximately 1/2 organic amendment and 1/2 inorganic amendment. You can vary the proportions if it will make you happy, but virtually ANY woody plant will be as happy as clam with this mix. I have grown over 1000 woody species and cultivars for twenty years in just such a mix. There are things to which you must pay attention. Container soils meant for long period growing should contain few or no fines (particles less than about 1 or 2mm). This is easily solved by screening all amendments (if they need it) with window screen. Soils with little or no organic matter are going to need more water and probably more fertilizer. Soils with organic matter are going to break down eventually and lose their aeration, at which point the plant should be repotted. There are some myths with which you should also be familiar, pine and fir bark for the organic portion need NOT be composted. In fact, it is better if it isn't composted; it will last longer. Sand need not be "sharp", it does not ramify the root tips by "splitting" them. What's good for trees in the ground is NOT necessarily good for trees in pots (see the article at my website "Why the earth is not like a pot"). Organic portions should be stable in order to maintain their particle size as long as possible and to avoid other problems of soil composting. Probably the best organic amendments around are fir and pine bark. Inorganic amendments should also be stable. Some clay products are not fired at a high enough rate and tend to break down into mud after a period of time. Sand and "flinty" types types of amendments work to create particle spaces for aeration, but (in my opinion) are not nearly as good as aerated particle amendments such as lava rock and some fired clay products. Soils for severe climates such as the West and Southwest may need additional water holding capacity. The easiest and probably best way to get this is to add a small amount of peat moss. The particles are small and filamentous so don't bother sifting it. It holds up to 25 times its weight in water so a small volume will do the job without clogging the pore space. About 5 or 6% by volume is adequate. Good container soil for long term growing of woody plants doesn't look like soil. To the uninitiated, it doesn' look like it could possibly grow plants, but it does, and it is essential. For a more complete composition on soils see the article at my website and related articles: http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/soils.htm Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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[IBC] soil
Haydite is shale that is fired at extremely high temperatures - "never"
degrades Oil Dri is basically highly compressed Fuller's Earth (clay) that dissolves over a period of time. I'm not sure if it is fired or not. The "formula" is one I borrowed from a local Bonsai nursery. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 -----Original Message----- From: ] Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 6:24 AM To: Isom, Jeff (EM, PTL); Subject: [IBC] soil In a message dated 4/23/2003 1:35:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: I use 3 parts haydite, 2 parts oil dri, and 2 parts of a "bed mix" that I get from a local landscaper (it has topsoil, pine bark mulch and sharp sand in it). I though "haydite" and "oil dri" were basically the same ingredient? Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#6
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[IBC] soil
Colin,
This point of Billy's is exactly why I don't get into the -what kind of soil should I use- subjects unless the question comes from this valley. You pretty much have to know your own schedule (watering wise) and climate to get your soil right. What works for me here, might not work for you. Find some locals and see what is working for them (and yes, they will all probably use a slightly different mix, and swear by it) and decide for yourself which will best suit you and your trees. Soil really is a personal thing. :-) Regards, Shelly Hurd Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9 "Billy M. Rhodes" wrote: Colin writes: I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept of soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture, there needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort of organic OR inorganic soil for water retention? "Billy replies: Your basic understanding is correct. SNIP TO THE POINT I'M REFERRING TO: 4. Your climate and weather conditions must be considered when you think about how to care for your trees. The hotter, dry areas of California will need a different soil than the wetter, cooler areas. |
#7
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[IBC] soil
What kind of soil is best when re-potting? Can one use just
regular potting soil? No. Commercial potting soil stays too wet and soggy for bonsai. You want a mix of coarse sand, clay granules, and a organic material like bark. Go to our FAQ -- www.internetbonsaiclub.org -- and read the essay about soil. I'm sure that Brent has a soil article at www.evergreengardenworks.com also. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase 'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
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In a message dated 10/29/2004 8:38:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes: I have been using dried clay (cat litter) but it breaks down very fast. You can look in two places for a longer lasting "fired" clay. Check out auto supply stores for a product called or use to soak up spilled oil. Sometimes it is the same as the cat litter and no improvement, but sometimes it is a better product. Buy the smallest bag and put some in a glass of warm water, see how long it takes to break down. Another place is a golf course or athletic field, they sometimes use a fired clay product to dry moist areas. Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#9
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The fired clay used on golf courses is called either
Turface or Profile, they are made by the same company. Brent recommends the Profile. This is available in garden stores in California. Kitsune Miko --- "Billy M. Rhodes" wrote: In a message dated 10/29/2004 8:38:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: I have been using dried clay (cat litter) but it breaks down very fast. You can look in two places for a longer lasting "fired" clay. Check out auto supply stores for a product called or use to soak up spilled oil. Sometimes it is the same as the cat litter and no improvement, but sometimes it is a better product. Buy the smallest bag and put some in a glass of warm water, see how long it takes to break down. Another place is a golf course or athletic field, they sometimes use a fired clay product to dry moist areas. Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#10
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The fired clay used on golf courses is called either
Turface or Profile, they are made by the same company. Brent recommends the Profile. This is available in garden stores in California. Kitsune Miko --- "Billy M. Rhodes" wrote: In a message dated 10/29/2004 8:38:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: I have been using dried clay (cat litter) but it breaks down very fast. You can look in two places for a longer lasting "fired" clay. Check out auto supply stores for a product called or use to soak up spilled oil. Sometimes it is the same as the cat litter and no improvement, but sometimes it is a better product. Buy the smallest bag and put some in a glass of warm water, see how long it takes to break down. Another place is a golf course or athletic field, they sometimes use a fired clay product to dry moist areas. Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
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In a message dated 10/29/2004 8:38:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes: I have been using dried clay (cat litter) but it breaks down very fast. You can look in two places for a longer lasting "fired" clay. Check out auto supply stores for a product called or use to soak up spilled oil. Sometimes it is the same as the cat litter and no improvement, but sometimes it is a better product. Buy the smallest bag and put some in a glass of warm water, see how long it takes to break down. Another place is a golf course or athletic field, they sometimes use a fired clay product to dry moist areas. Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#12
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I thought we were talking about how to retain water???? You should relax,
dear, I also fertilize with tobacco dust. (HORROR OF HORRORS) It is a well known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away. If you read my piece without attacking first you would have seen that it also said that you need to soak the butts to get the nicotine out. We are just as hyper about chemical insecticides as you are about nicotine and prefer the natural way. Regards, Caroll South Africa -----Original Message----- From: Nina Shishkoff ] Sent: 01 November 2004 15:19 To: Caroll Hermann Subject: [IBC] soil YIKES! I don't worry about your bonsai as much as you: remember that nicotine is very toxic. Don't any of your patrons drink coffee? Coffee grounds would be preferable. At any rate, you should try to make a compost pile! I collect old cigarette butts, ===== Nina Shishkoff Frederick MD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004/10/25 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004/10/25 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#13
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On 2 Nov 2004 at 9:11, Caroll Hermann wrote:
I thought we were talking about how to retain water???? You should relax, dear, 1. Sarcasm is un-called for. And impolite. I also fertilize with tobacco dust. (HORROR OF HORRORS) It is a well known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away. 2. There is a reason. Nicotine is very toxic. That is VERY toxic. It absorbs through human skin, and its effects are cumulative and long-lasting. (And if you are a smoker, too . . ..). "Well-known facts" as often as not turn out to be apocryphal bunkum. I know of NO pesticide in North America that still uses nicotine as an ingredient, tho there may be some. Organic growing manuals advise against it or _at least_ advise the use of extreme care. If you read my piece without attacking first you would have seen that it also said that you need to soak the butts to get the nicotine out. We are just as hyper about chemical insecticides as you are about nicotine and prefer the natural way. 3. I'm sure that Nina -- who is a professional plant/fungi scientist, a licensed pesticide applicator (and the IBC's "Plant Doctor" -- see our website) -- did read it carefully. But nevertheless, I fail to see how soaking will "get the nicotine out" in any real sense -- and the process of soaking seems more likely to ensure that you get some of the mess on your hands. 4. Your message told us how YOU do it. That is fine and perfectly acceptable. 5. However, it is ALSO fine and acceptable for persons on the list who _know_ that some process is potentially dangerous to the user to warn others so they are aware of the choice they face if they elect to follow your advice. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson -----Original Message----- From: Nina Shishkoff ] Sent: 01 November 2004 15:19 To: Caroll Hermann Subject: [IBC] soil YIKES! I don't worry about your bonsai as much as you: remember that nicotine is very toxic. Don't any of your patrons drink coffee? Coffee grounds would be preferable. At any rate, you should try to make a compost pile! ===== Nina Shishkoff Frederick MD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004/10/25 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004/10/25 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#14
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How someone got influenced with the African myth *known fact in Africa, that
it keeps insects and fungi away*? There is a big tobacco industry in India, and I have seen tobacco leave infected with insects and diseased and of course fungi between the leaves. That remind me of divination of Science which I crammed during my school days..... "Systematic study of living and non-living matter observed and verified by experiments". All dried leaves whether those of tobacco or tea, in fact most organic matter, when soaked in water at a particular temperature, releases most of the soluble ingredients whether it is NICOTINE or CAFFENE and also some pleasant or unpleasant flavor or smell. All said and done, I don't think there is need of tinkering with Cigarette butts and other unscientific practices for humus/buffer for moisture retention. Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:02 PM Subject: [IBC] soil On 2 Nov 2004 at 9:11, Caroll Hermann wrote: I thought we were talking about how to retain water???? You should relax, dear, 1. Sarcasm is un-called for. And impolite. I also fertilize with tobacco dust. (HORROR OF HORRORS) It is a well known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away. 2. There is a reason. Nicotine is very toxic. That is VERY toxic. It absorbs through human skin, and its effects are cumulative and long-lasting. (And if you are a smoker, too . . .). "Well-known facts" as often as not turn out to be apocryphal bunkum. I know of NO pesticide in North America that still uses nicotine as an ingredient, tho there may be some. Organic growing manuals advise against it or _at least_ advise the use of extreme care. If you read my piece without attacking first you would have seen that it also said that you need to soak the butts to get the nicotine out. We are just as hyper about chemical insecticides as you are about nicotine and prefer the natural way. 3. I'm sure that Nina -- who is a professional plant/fungi scientist, a licensed pesticide applicator (and the IBC's "Plant Doctor" -- see our website) -- did read it carefully. But nevertheless, I fail to see how soaking will "get the nicotine out" in any real sense -- and the process of soaking seems more likely to ensure that you get some of the mess on your hands. 4. Your message told us how YOU do it. That is fine and perfectly acceptable. 5. However, it is ALSO fine and acceptable for persons on the list who _know_ that some process is potentially dangerous to the user to warn others so they are aware of the choice they face if they elect to follow your advice. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson -----Original Message----- From: Nina Shishkoff ] Sent: 01 November 2004 15:19 To: Caroll Hermann Subject: [IBC] soil YIKES! I don't worry about your bonsai as much as you: remember that nicotine is very toxic. Don't any of your patrons drink coffee? Coffee grounds would be preferable. At any rate, you should try to make a compost pile! ===== Nina Shishkoff Frederick MD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004/10/25 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004/10/25 ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#15
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Nikotine is very toxic for many living organisms
like chlorine for life in general if you use nicotine on aphids it works well if you use chlorine you kill aphids and plant so fungi live evyrwhere some of them are sensible to some chemicals some are not and needs others chemicals like deseases you do not cure eveyrthing with the same antibiotic.. as simple as that and anyway teh concentration of teh alkalod has its impotace bitter alamonds contains cianure if you eat one or few you do not die if you eat a kilo probably you will get poisoned Anil Kaushik wrote: How someone got influenced with the African myth *known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away*? There is a big tobacco industry in India, and I have seen tobacco leave infected with insects and diseased and of course fungi between the leaves. That remind me of divination of Science which I crammed during my school days..... "Systematic study of living and non-living matter observed and verified by experiments". All dried leaves whether those of tobacco or tea, in fact most organic matter, when soaked in water at a particular temperature, releases most of the soluble ingredients whether it is NICOTINE or CAFFENE and also some pleasant or unpleasant flavor or smell. All said and done, I don't think there is need of tinkering with Cigarette butts and other unscientific practices for humus/buffer for moisture retention. Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:02 PM Subject: [IBC] soil On 2 Nov 2004 at 9:11, Caroll Hermann wrote: I thought we were talking about how to retain water???? You should relax, dear, 1. Sarcasm is un-called for. And impolite. I also fertilize with tobacco dust. (HORROR OF HORRORS) It is a well known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away. 2. There is a reason. Nicotine is very toxic. That is VERY toxic. It absorbs through human skin, and its effects are cumulative and long-lasting. (And if you are a smoker, too . . .). "Well-known facts" as often as not turn out to be apocryphal bunkum. I know of NO pesticide in North America that still uses nicotine as an ingredient, tho there may be some. Organic growing manuals advise against it or _at least_ advise the use of extreme care. If you read my piece without attacking first you would have seen that it also said that you need to soak the butts to get the nicotine out. We are just as hyper about chemical insecticides as you are about nicotine and prefer the natural way. 3. I'm sure that Nina -- who is a professional plant/fungi scientist, a licensed pesticide applicator (and the IBC's "Plant Doctor" -- see our website) -- did read it carefully. But nevertheless, I fail to see how soaking will "get the nicotine out" in any real sense -- and the process of soaking seems more likely to ensure that you get some of the mess on your hands. 4. Your message told us how YOU do it. That is fine and perfectly acceptable. 5. However, it is ALSO fine and acceptable for persons on the list who _know_ that some process is potentially dangerous to the user to warn others so they are aware of the choice they face if they elect to follow your advice. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson -----Original Message----- From: Nina Shishkoff ] Sent: 01 November 2004 15:19 To: Caroll Hermann Subject: [IBC] soil YIKES! I don't worry about your bonsai as much as you: remember that nicotine is very toxic. Don't any of your patrons drink coffee? Coffee grounds would be preferable. At any rate, you should try to make a compost pile! ===== Nina Shishkoff Frederick MD _______________________________________________ ___ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004/10/25 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004/10/25 ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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