I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept of
soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture, there
needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort of
organic OR inorganic soil for water retention? Thanks alot, I am still
trying to clear up my understanding of the right way to mix soil. - Colin
Horn Orinda, CA





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Morning to All,
Colin,

I have for years based my bonsai soils on,

[1] Inorganic and [2] Organic.

Inorganic -
[a] Able to hold water within it self.
- example - crushed sifted red brick

[b] Able to hold water around itself.
example - crushed sifted quartz gravel.

[Neither of the above inorganic will decay or be
chemically eroded easily.Also easiest to obtain down
here in the West Indies/Caribbean].

Organic - can be - sifted compost or sifted manure.
Now testing the addition of some coco peat.
_________________________________
Able to retain moisture,but freely draining.

The above can be substituted for, with local ingredients.
You will have to talk to others around your area.
Sensitivity, to local climatic conditions is important,
and gain the experience from just growing trees long
before you begin to really train them.
Khaimraj
[ West Indies/Caribbean,
Sempre Spring Zone.]


-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Horn
To:
Date: 23 April 2003 20:07
Subject: [IBC] soil


I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept of
soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture, there
needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort of
organic OR inorganic soil for water retention? Thanks alot, I am still
trying to clear up my understanding of the right way to mix soil. - Colin
Horn Orinda, CA

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In a message dated 4/23/2003 11:29:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept of
soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture, there
needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort of
organic OR inorganic soil for water retention?

Your basic understanding is correct.

Everyone who does Bonsai for very long comes up with a soil mix they
favor. I think it depends upon a number of factors.
1. I think the most important factor is how you care for your trees.
How often and how much you water. Indoors or out.
2. Another factor, not necessarily second in importance, is the
species of the plant. Some species will grow in just about anything, others
are very particular for good growth.
3. Stage of development matters. A fast growing young tree might want
a different soil than a slower growing mature tree.
4. Your climate and weather conditions must be considered when you
think about how to care for your trees. The hotter, dry areas of California
will need a different soil than the wetter, cooler areas.
I am sure there are other factors and we have done this before on the
list, with members adding to this list or developing their own.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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At 08:07 PM 4/23/03 -0700, Colin Horn wrote:
I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept of
soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture, there
needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort of
organic OR inorganic soil for water retention? Thanks alot, I am still
trying to clear up my understanding of the right way to mix soil. - Colin
Horn Orinda, CA

Colin

Folks tend to make container soil practice a lot more complicated than it
needs to be. Yes, you could take a college course on soils, but you could
also learn the basics in a few minutes. Getting an actual _feel_ for wha'ts
right and what's not takes a lot longer, but is not essential for making a
soil that works.

The basics: a container soil has to breathe (aeration), it must retain
water, it must support the plant structurally. That's about it. It's nice
if it retains NPK and minor and trace elements, but even that can be
corrected with fertilizer practice.

Aeration and water retention are often at odds with each other, that is the
major reason that most soils contain both organic and inorganic
amendments. It is not strictly necessary. Plants will grow just fine in
straight fir bark, I have done it. Plants will grow just fine in pure
minerals, i.e. akadama. That doesn't mean that each of these methods
doesn't have problems or characteristics that must be accounted for. An all
organic soil with have problems with soil deterioration and possible
collapse (so will any soil mixture with organic portions for that matter),
and an inorganic only soil will have problems with moisture retention
and/or fertilizer retention.

Because of the above considerations, MOST container soils will consist of
approximately 1/2 organic amendment and 1/2 inorganic amendment. You can
vary the proportions if it will make you happy, but virtually ANY woody
plant will be as happy as clam with this mix. I have grown over 1000 woody
species and cultivars for twenty years in just such a mix.

There are things to which you must pay attention. Container soils meant for
long period growing should contain few or no fines (particles less than
about 1 or 2mm). This is easily solved by screening all amendments (if they
need it) with window screen. Soils with little or no organic matter are
going to need more water and probably more fertilizer. Soils with organic
matter are going to break down eventually and lose their aeration, at which
point the plant should be repotted.

There are some myths with which you should also be familiar, pine and fir
bark for the organic portion need NOT be composted. In fact, it is better
if it isn't composted; it will last longer. Sand need not be "sharp", it
does not ramify the root tips by "splitting" them. What's good for trees in
the ground is NOT necessarily good for trees in pots (see the article at my
website "Why the earth is not like a pot").

Organic portions should be stable in order to maintain their particle size
as long as possible and to avoid other problems of soil composting.
Probably the best organic amendments around are fir and pine bark.

Inorganic amendments should also be stable. Some clay products are not
fired at a high enough rate and tend to break down into mud after a period
of time. Sand and "flinty" types types of amendments work to create
particle spaces for aeration, but (in my opinion) are not nearly as good as
aerated particle amendments such as lava rock and some fired clay products.

Soils for severe climates such as the West and Southwest may need
additional water holding capacity. The easiest and probably best way to get
this is to add a small amount of peat moss. The particles are small and
filamentous so don't bother sifting it. It holds up to 25 times its weight
in water so a small volume will do the job without clogging the pore space.
About 5 or 6% by volume is adequate.

Good container soil for long term growing of woody plants doesn't look like
soil. To the uninitiated, it doesn' look like it could possibly grow
plants, but it does, and it is essential.

For a more complete composition on soils see the article at my website and
related articles:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/soils.htm


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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Haydite is shale that is fired at extremely high temperatures - "never"
degrades

Oil Dri is basically highly compressed Fuller's Earth (clay) that dissolves
over a period of time. I'm not sure if it is fired or not.

The "formula" is one I borrowed from a local Bonsai nursery.

Jeff Isom
Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39

-----Original Message-----
From: ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 6:24 AM
To: Isom, Jeff (EM, PTL);
Subject: [IBC] soil


In a message dated 4/23/2003 1:35:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:



I use 3 parts haydite, 2 parts oil dri, and 2 parts of a "bed mix" that I
get from a local landscaper (it has topsoil, pine bark mulch and sharp sand
in it).



I though "haydite" and "oil dri" were basically the same ingredient?

Billy on the Florida Space Coast


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Colin,

This point of Billy's is exactly why I don't get into the -what kind of soil
should I use- subjects unless the question comes from this valley. You
pretty much have to know your own schedule (watering wise) and climate to
get your soil right. What works for me here, might not work for you. Find
some locals and see what is working for them (and yes, they will all
probably use a slightly different mix, and swear by it) and decide for
yourself which will best suit you and your trees. Soil really is a personal
thing. :-)
Regards,
Shelly Hurd Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9


"Billy M. Rhodes" wrote:

Colin writes:
I am still trying to simplify the what seems to be complicated concept
of
soil. Would it be true if I were to say that in every soil mixture,
there
needs to be some kind of grit, for good drainage, mixed with some sort
of
organic OR inorganic soil for water retention?

"Billy replies:
Your basic understanding is correct.

SNIP TO THE POINT I'M REFERRING TO:

4. Your climate and weather conditions must be considered when you
think about how to care for your trees. The hotter, dry areas of
California
will need a different soil than the wetter, cooler areas.

What kind of soil is best when re-potting? Can one use just
regular potting
soil?


No. Commercial potting soil stays too wet and soggy for bonsai.
You want a mix of coarse sand, clay granules, and a organic
material like bark.

Go to our FAQ -- www.internetbonsaiclub.org -- and read the essay
about soil. I'm sure that Brent has a soil article at
www.evergreengardenworks.com also.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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In a message dated 10/29/2004 8:38:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

I have been using dried clay
(cat litter) but it breaks down very fast.

You can look in two places for a longer lasting "fired" clay. Check
out auto supply stores for a product called or use to soak up spilled oil.
Sometimes it is the same as the cat litter and no improvement, but sometimes it is
a better product. Buy the smallest bag and put some in a glass of warm water,
see how long it takes to break down.
Another place is a golf course or athletic field, they sometimes use a
fired clay product to dry moist areas.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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In a message dated 10/29/2004 8:38:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

I have been using dried clay
(cat litter) but it breaks down very fast.

You can look in two places for a longer lasting "fired" clay. Check
out auto supply stores for a product called or use to soak up spilled oil.
Sometimes it is the same as the cat litter and no improvement, but sometimes it is
a better product. Buy the smallest bag and put some in a glass of warm water,
see how long it takes to break down.
Another place is a golf course or athletic field, they sometimes use a
fired clay product to dry moist areas.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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The fired clay used on golf courses is called either
Turface or Profile, they are made by the same company.
Brent recommends the Profile. This is available in
garden stores in California.

Kitsune Miko
--- "Billy M. Rhodes" wrote:

In a message dated 10/29/2004 8:38:16 PM Eastern
Daylight Time,
writes:

I have been using dried clay
(cat litter) but it breaks down very fast.

You can look in two places for a longer
lasting "fired" clay. Check
out auto supply stores for a product called or use
to soak up spilled oil.
Sometimes it is the same as the cat litter and no
improvement, but sometimes it is
a better product. Buy the smallest bag and put some
in a glass of warm water,
see how long it takes to break down.
Another place is a golf course or athletic
field, they sometimes use a
fired clay product to dry moist areas.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast


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Manakitivipart++++

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http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
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+++++



=====
****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

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The fired clay used on golf courses is called either
Turface or Profile, they are made by the same company.
Brent recommends the Profile. This is available in
garden stores in California.

Kitsune Miko
--- "Billy M. Rhodes" wrote:

In a message dated 10/29/2004 8:38:16 PM Eastern
Daylight Time,
writes:

I have been using dried clay
(cat litter) but it breaks down very fast.

You can look in two places for a longer
lasting "fired" clay. Check
out auto supply stores for a product called or use
to soak up spilled oil.
Sometimes it is the same as the cat litter and no
improvement, but sometimes it is
a better product. Buy the smallest bag and put some
in a glass of warm water,
see how long it takes to break down.
Another place is a golf course or athletic
field, they sometimes use a
fired clay product to dry moist areas.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast


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Manakitivipart++++

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http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
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+++++



=====
****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

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I thought we were talking about how to retain water???? You should relax,
dear, I also fertilize with tobacco dust. (HORROR OF HORRORS) It is a well
known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away. If you read my
piece without attacking first you would have seen that it also said that you
need to soak the butts to get the nicotine out. We are just as hyper about
chemical insecticides as you are about nicotine and prefer the natural way.

Regards,

Caroll
South Africa

-----Original Message-----
From: Nina Shishkoff ]
Sent: 01 November 2004 15:19
To: Caroll Hermann
Subject: [IBC] soil

YIKES! I don't worry about your bonsai as much as
you: remember that nicotine is very toxic. Don't any
of your patrons drink coffee? Coffee grounds would be
preferable. At any rate, you should try to make a
compost pile!

I collect old cigarette butts,

=====
Nina Shishkoff
Frederick MD

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I thought we were talking about how to retain water???? You should relax,
dear, I also fertilize with tobacco dust. (HORROR OF HORRORS) It is a well
known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away. If you read my
piece without attacking first you would have seen that it also said that you
need to soak the butts to get the nicotine out. We are just as hyper about
chemical insecticides as you are about nicotine and prefer the natural way.

Regards,

Caroll
South Africa

-----Original Message-----
From: Nina Shishkoff ]
Sent: 01 November 2004 15:19
To: Caroll Hermann
Subject: [IBC] soil

YIKES! I don't worry about your bonsai as much as
you: remember that nicotine is very toxic. Don't any
of your patrons drink coffee? Coffee grounds would be
preferable. At any rate, you should try to make a
compost pile!

I collect old cigarette butts,

=====
Nina Shishkoff
Frederick MD

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On 2 Nov 2004 at 9:11, Caroll Hermann wrote:

I thought we were talking about how to retain water???? You should relax,
dear,

1. Sarcasm is un-called for. And impolite.


I also fertilize with tobacco dust. (HORROR OF HORRORS) It is a
well
known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away.

2. There is a reason. Nicotine is very toxic. That is VERY
toxic. It absorbs through human skin, and its effects are
cumulative and long-lasting. (And if you are a smoker, too . .
..). "Well-known facts" as often as not turn out to be
apocryphal bunkum.

I know of NO pesticide in North America that still uses nicotine
as an ingredient, tho there may be some. Organic growing
manuals advise against it or _at least_ advise the use of
extreme care.

If you read my
piece without attacking first you would have seen that it also said that you
need to soak the butts to get the nicotine out. We are just as hyper about
chemical insecticides as you are about nicotine and prefer the natural way.


3. I'm sure that Nina -- who is a professional plant/fungi
scientist, a licensed pesticide applicator (and the IBC's "Plant
Doctor" -- see our website) -- did read it carefully. But
nevertheless, I fail to see how soaking will "get the nicotine
out" in any real sense -- and the process of soaking seems more
likely to ensure that you get some of the mess on your hands.

4. Your message told us how YOU do it. That is fine and
perfectly acceptable.

5. However, it is ALSO fine and acceptable for persons on the
list who _know_ that some process is potentially dangerous to
the user to warn others so they are aware of the choice they
face if they elect to follow your advice.


Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

-----Original Message-----
From: Nina Shishkoff ]
Sent: 01 November 2004 15:19
To: Caroll Hermann
Subject: [IBC] soil

YIKES! I don't worry about your bonsai as much as
you: remember that nicotine is very toxic. Don't any
of your patrons drink coffee? Coffee grounds would be
preferable. At any rate, you should try to make a
compost pile!


=====
Nina Shishkoff
Frederick MD

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On 2 Nov 2004 at 9:11, Caroll Hermann wrote:

I thought we were talking about how to retain water???? You should relax,
dear,

1. Sarcasm is un-called for. And impolite.


I also fertilize with tobacco dust. (HORROR OF HORRORS) It is a
well
known fact in Africa, that it keeps insects and fungi away.

2. There is a reason. Nicotine is very toxic. That is VERY
toxic. It absorbs through human skin, and its effects are
cumulative and long-lasting. (And if you are a smoker, too . .
..). "Well-known facts" as often as not turn out to be
apocryphal bunkum.

I know of NO pesticide in North America that still uses nicotine
as an ingredient, tho there may be some. Organic growing
manuals advise against it or _at least_ advise the use of
extreme care.

If you read my
piece without attacking first you would have seen that it also said that you
need to soak the butts to get the nicotine out. We are just as hyper about
chemical insecticides as you are about nicotine and prefer the natural way.


3. I'm sure that Nina -- who is a professional plant/fungi
scientist, a licensed pesticide applicator (and the IBC's "Plant
Doctor" -- see our website) -- did read it carefully. But
nevertheless, I fail to see how soaking will "get the nicotine
out" in any real sense -- and the process of soaking seems more
likely to ensure that you get some of the mess on your hands.

4. Your message told us how YOU do it. That is fine and
perfectly acceptable.

5. However, it is ALSO fine and acceptable for persons on the
list who _know_ that some process is potentially dangerous to
the user to warn others so they are aware of the choice they
face if they elect to follow your advice.


Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

-----Original Message-----
From: Nina Shishkoff ]
Sent: 01 November 2004 15:19
To: Caroll Hermann
Subject: [IBC] soil

YIKES! I don't worry about your bonsai as much as
you: remember that nicotine is very toxic. Don't any
of your patrons drink coffee? Coffee grounds would be
preferable. At any rate, you should try to make a
compost pile!


=====
Nina Shishkoff
Frederick MD

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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