I recently sowed some Trident Maple, some Chinese Elm, some Japanese Black
pine, and just a few redwood seeds. I was wondering if anyone knew about
how long it would take for these seeds to sprout. I have them in a flat
full of peat pellets with a plastic cover, and a warming pad underneath.
Very fancy and cheap.I'd appreciate any help.

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I recently sowed some Trident Maple, some Chinese Elm, some
Japanese Black
pine, and just a few redwood seeds. I was wondering if anyone
knew about
how long it would take for these seeds to sprout. I have them
in a flat
full of peat pellets with a plastic cover, and a warming pad
underneath.
Very fancy and cheap.I'd appreciate any help.


For the first two, it's probably not as simple as that.

Acer buergeranum need 3 months stratification at 41 degrees to
germinate.

Ulmus parvifolia should sprout readily if the seed was collected
freesh. If left to dry, it requires 2 months cold
stratification.

Pinus thunbergiana should germinate almost immediately.

Sequoia also should germinate readily.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 04:43 PM 7/7/2003 +0100, you wrote:
Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for species you can't seem to
get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

If you're patient, yeah...

There are a lot of people who will tell you no, don't do it. Then there
are others who swear by it. I'm in the middle. I haven't grown anything
from seed, mostly because I didn' thave the space for it. But I think as
an exercise in and of itself, it would be cool. However, depending on the
specie and your growing season, you may expect a long wait before you have
something you can seriously begin work on, and then another long wait
before you have a tree.

Nic
"You must deal with me as I think of myself" J. Hockenberry
http://bmee.net

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I got my first of many species from seed and it is a way to get some of
the more esoteric species. You can get most of them as saplings though.
It depends where in the UK you are. Give us a rough indication and I'll
see if I can help.

If you are happy to have some growing on from seed and waiting a long
time until you can do anything with them - four or five years minimum -
take a look at my trees from seed articles at
http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/articles.htm Look under
propagation.

I still start hundreds of maples every spring but have slowed down on
other species as I now have too many plants.

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales


Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for species you can't seem
to get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

John
UK

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

From my Trees from Seeds article at
http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/seed1.htm

"Chiltern Seeds, Bortree Stile, Ulverston, Cumbria, LA12 7PB Tel 01229
581137 Catalogue lists hundreds of interesting seeds with a symbol to
indicate suitability for bonsai. There are some that aren't given a
symbol, so a thorough read is essential. Chiltern Website
http://www.chilternseeds.co.uk/

Andrew Norfield Seeds Tel 01291 650306 Supply specially treated
pregerminated seed, taking a lot of the uncertainty out of germination.
The catalogue lists hundreds of tree seeds, most of which are suitable
for bonsai."


Cheers

Kev Bailey


Cheers - I'm in Highams Park, London E4 (Chingford)
I agree most UK trees can be got - but you've got the hunt! I've only
found 2 places that sell oaks. Where is a good seed supplier?

John


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kev Bailey"
To: "'John Kingscott'" ; "IBC"

Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:39 PM
Subject: [IBC] Seeds


I got my first of many species from seed and it is a way to get some
of the more esoteric species. You can get most of them as saplings
though. It depends where in the UK you are. Give us a rough indication

and I'll see if I can help.

If you are happy to have some growing on from seed and waiting a long
time until you can do anything with them - four or five years minimum
- take a look at my trees from seed articles at
http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/articles.htm Look under
propagation.

I still start hundreds of maples every spring but have slowed down on
other species as I now have too many plants.

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales


Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for species you can't
seem to get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

John
UK


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Depends on how old you are. If you have a lot of time
the experience of growing from seed gives you control
over root placement and trunk progress. This means
you don't just plant seeds and wait. You have to
watch, transplant, check root structure, cull, cut
back, add/remove sacrifical brances, have losses, and
repeat until you have suitable material for bonsai.

With nursery stock you have to accept the nebari that
comes with the tree and work around that.

I have found Chinese elms are very slow growing even
from cuttings. I have 15 year old cuttings that are
now about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in diameter.

Kitsune Miko

--- John Kingscott
wrote:
Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for
species you can't seem to
get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

John
UK


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page
++++

************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I'm only 24 years old. To me, seeds are a good idea if it takes 10
years to get a decent sized tree, I'll only be 34 As long as it
doesn't take 20-40 years, I have the patience. I've been doing this for
4 years now, I have a couple nice trees that were 2-3 year old seedlings
when I acquired them.

Antonio Quental

-----Original Message-----
From: John Kingscott ]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 11:43 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Seeds

Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for species you can't seem
to
get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

John
UK

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hi Kitsune,

I have 15 year old Chinese Elms from seed. The ones that remained in
pots are under 10mm in diameter. The ones that were planted out in the
ground four years ago are now 8M high and 120mm diameter at the base
with excellent coarse orange bark. This year I'm doing multiple air
layers working my way down the tree until I can remove the stump. And
this in cold, wet Wales ;-)

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales, UK


Depends on how old you are. If you have a lot of time
the experience of growing from seed gives you control
over root placement and trunk progress. This means
you don't just plant seeds and wait. You have to
watch, transplant, check root structure, cull, cut
back, add/remove sacrifical brances, have losses, and
repeat until you have suitable material for bonsai.

With nursery stock you have to accept the nebari that
comes with the tree and work around that.

I have found Chinese elms are very slow growing even
from cuttings. I have 15 year old cuttings that are
now about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in diameter.

Kitsune Miko

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

It is true that field grown trees develop quicker. I
should have said I was refering to pot culture and
that I was in sunny California. I have a limited
growing ground currently filled mostly with black
pines. I have several elms in the ground and they are
fatening up faster than the potted ones, but not fast
enough for a senior citizen.

I planted black pine seedlings as a newbie and didn't
know all the ins and outs of the process. Out of 25
seedlings some 15 years later, perhaps I have one or
two good ones. Some that may look good with lots of
work in another 10 years.

(If you can imagine grannie out there with her chain
saw lying on the ground to get the right view and
angle)

The thing with putting seedlings into the ground for
bonsai is that one should place roots so that a
suitable nebari is developed. Also one should
consider periodic root pruning. I use a sharpened
shovel and cut one quarter of the side roots every
year, allowing for a finer horizontal root structure.
I also prune the tap root before putting trees into
the ground.

The other thing with ground culture is to be able to
maintain lower branches and to have branches spaced as
sacrificial to obtain a proper taper. (with elms
lower brances are not as necessary as you can take all
brances off when dormant and get new, smaller ones.)

The point I was trying to make is that bonsai is
always about developing the trees for the best
outcome. Just letting trees grow doesn't always give
you good bonsai stock. The idea of starting from seed
is to have total control over tree development.

Kitsune Miko

--- Kev Bailey
wrote:
Hi Kitsune,

I have 15 year old Chinese Elms from seed. The ones
that remained in
pots are under 10mm in diameter. The ones that were
planted out in the
ground four years ago are now 8M high and 120mm
diameter at the base
with excellent coarse orange bark. This year I'm
doing multiple air
layers working my way down the tree until I can
remove the stump. And
this in cold, wet Wales ;-)

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales, UK


Depends on how old you are. If you have a lot of
time
the experience of growing from seed gives you
control
over root placement and trunk progress. This means
you don't just plant seeds and wait. You have to
watch, transplant, check root structure, cull, cut
back, add/remove sacrifical brances, have losses,
and
repeat until you have suitable material for bonsai.

With nursery stock you have to accept the nebari
that
comes with the tree and work around that.

I have found Chinese elms are very slow growing even
from cuttings. I have 15 year old cuttings that are
now about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in diameter.

Kitsune Miko



************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I got my first of many species from seed and it is a way to get some of
the more esoteric species. You can get most of them as saplings though.
It depends where in the UK you are. Give us a rough indication and I'll
see if I can help.

If you are happy to have some growing on from seed and waiting a long
time until you can do anything with them - four or five years minimum -
take a look at my trees from seed articles at
http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/articles.htm Look under
propagation.

I still start hundreds of maples every spring but have slowed down on
other species as I now have too many plants.

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales


Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for species you can't seem
to get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

John
UK

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

From my Trees from Seeds article at
http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/seed1.htm

"Chiltern Seeds, Bortree Stile, Ulverston, Cumbria, LA12 7PB Tel 01229
581137 Catalogue lists hundreds of interesting seeds with a symbol to
indicate suitability for bonsai. There are some that aren't given a
symbol, so a thorough read is essential. Chiltern Website
http://www.chilternseeds.co.uk/

Andrew Norfield Seeds Tel 01291 650306 Supply specially treated
pregerminated seed, taking a lot of the uncertainty out of germination.
The catalogue lists hundreds of tree seeds, most of which are suitable
for bonsai."


Cheers

Kev Bailey


Cheers - I'm in Highams Park, London E4 (Chingford)
I agree most UK trees can be got - but you've got the hunt! I've only
found 2 places that sell oaks. Where is a good seed supplier?

John


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kev Bailey"
To: "'John Kingscott'" ; "IBC"

Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:39 PM
Subject: [IBC] Seeds


I got my first of many species from seed and it is a way to get some
of the more esoteric species. You can get most of them as saplings
though. It depends where in the UK you are. Give us a rough indication

and I'll see if I can help.

If you are happy to have some growing on from seed and waiting a long
time until you can do anything with them - four or five years minimum
- take a look at my trees from seed articles at
http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/articles.htm Look under
propagation.

I still start hundreds of maples every spring but have slowed down on
other species as I now have too many plants.

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales


Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for species you can't
seem to get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

John
UK


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Depends on how old you are. If you have a lot of time
the experience of growing from seed gives you control
over root placement and trunk progress. This means
you don't just plant seeds and wait. You have to
watch, transplant, check root structure, cull, cut
back, add/remove sacrifical brances, have losses, and
repeat until you have suitable material for bonsai.

With nursery stock you have to accept the nebari that
comes with the tree and work around that.

I have found Chinese elms are very slow growing even
from cuttings. I have 15 year old cuttings that are
now about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in diameter.

Kitsune Miko

--- John Kingscott
wrote:
Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for
species you can't seem to
get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

John
UK


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page
++++

************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I'm only 24 years old. To me, seeds are a good idea if it takes 10
years to get a decent sized tree, I'll only be 34 As long as it
doesn't take 20-40 years, I have the patience. I've been doing this for
4 years now, I have a couple nice trees that were 2-3 year old seedlings
when I acquired them.

Antonio Quental

-----Original Message-----
From: John Kingscott ]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 11:43 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Seeds

Is it worth trying to sow seeds? I'm thinking for species you can't seem
to
get as saplings -Chinese Elms etc

John
UK

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hi Kitsune,

I have 15 year old Chinese Elms from seed. The ones that remained in
pots are under 10mm in diameter. The ones that were planted out in the
ground four years ago are now 8M high and 120mm diameter at the base
with excellent coarse orange bark. This year I'm doing multiple air
layers working my way down the tree until I can remove the stump. And
this in cold, wet Wales ;-)

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales, UK


Depends on how old you are. If you have a lot of time
the experience of growing from seed gives you control
over root placement and trunk progress. This means
you don't just plant seeds and wait. You have to
watch, transplant, check root structure, cull, cut
back, add/remove sacrifical brances, have losses, and
repeat until you have suitable material for bonsai.

With nursery stock you have to accept the nebari that
comes with the tree and work around that.

I have found Chinese elms are very slow growing even
from cuttings. I have 15 year old cuttings that are
now about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in diameter.

Kitsune Miko

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

It is true that field grown trees develop quicker. I
should have said I was refering to pot culture and
that I was in sunny California. I have a limited
growing ground currently filled mostly with black
pines. I have several elms in the ground and they are
fatening up faster than the potted ones, but not fast
enough for a senior citizen.

I planted black pine seedlings as a newbie and didn't
know all the ins and outs of the process. Out of 25
seedlings some 15 years later, perhaps I have one or
two good ones. Some that may look good with lots of
work in another 10 years.

(If you can imagine grannie out there with her chain
saw lying on the ground to get the right view and
angle)

The thing with putting seedlings into the ground for
bonsai is that one should place roots so that a
suitable nebari is developed. Also one should
consider periodic root pruning. I use a sharpened
shovel and cut one quarter of the side roots every
year, allowing for a finer horizontal root structure.
I also prune the tap root before putting trees into
the ground.

The other thing with ground culture is to be able to
maintain lower branches and to have branches spaced as
sacrificial to obtain a proper taper. (with elms
lower brances are not as necessary as you can take all
brances off when dormant and get new, smaller ones.)

The point I was trying to make is that bonsai is
always about developing the trees for the best
outcome. Just letting trees grow doesn't always give
you good bonsai stock. The idea of starting from seed
is to have total control over tree development.

Kitsune Miko

--- Kev Bailey
wrote:
Hi Kitsune,

I have 15 year old Chinese Elms from seed. The ones
that remained in
pots are under 10mm in diameter. The ones that were
planted out in the
ground four years ago are now 8M high and 120mm
diameter at the base
with excellent coarse orange bark. This year I'm
doing multiple air
layers working my way down the tree until I can
remove the stump. And
this in cold, wet Wales ;-)

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales, UK


Depends on how old you are. If you have a lot of
time
the experience of growing from seed gives you
control
over root placement and trunk progress. This means
you don't just plant seeds and wait. You have to
watch, transplant, check root structure, cull, cut
back, add/remove sacrifical brances, have losses,
and
repeat until you have suitable material for bonsai.

With nursery stock you have to accept the nebari
that
comes with the tree and work around that.

I have found Chinese elms are very slow growing even
from cuttings. I have 15 year old cuttings that are
now about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in diameter.

Kitsune Miko



************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++