Good teachers clearly explain the process beforehand so that
the student
knows why he is doing something over and over. The method
you're
describing. following instructions blindly, only works for Mr.
Miyagi in the
Karate Kid movies. "wax on, wax off"

Respectfully,
John

And for me, a good teacher would do MUCH better giving me a set
of written instructions first, then correcting me as I try to
implement them. I retain what I read 100% better than I retain
what someone tells me while I'm busy looking around at what
everyone else is doing ;-).

So everybody is different.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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There is no such thing as a universal approach to learning. We
need to be flexible.

Everybody needs to tell that to their State Legislatures! And
add a note that standardized (universal) testing is stupid, too.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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Perhaps part of the problem is with the whole concept of "teacher". I would
like to suggest that, technically speaking, one cannot "teach", i.e. one cannot
plant knowledge or skills in a student. (At least not yet! Perhaps someone will
someday invent a modem to download information or instructions into a person's
brain, but right now that is just science fiction.) It is probably more accurate,
although very clumsy, to describe a teacher as a learning enhancer or one who
facilitates the learning process.
Practice is essential to learning skills. Andy's right about that. I don't
hear anyone disagreeing with that. ( That's why I don't know how to play the
piano!) Where there is disagreement is with the extreme notion that practice is the
only thing that matters in acquiring skills. That ignores vast areas of variables
in motivation and learning theory.
Nonetheless, I am looking forward to learning from Andy's book on How to
Teach Bonsai. I hope it's more than one page saying practice, practice, practice!
;-)
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Andy: Good teachers clearly explain the process beforehand so that the student knows
why he is doing something over and over. The method you're describing. following
instructions blindly, only works for Mr. Miyagi in the Karate Kid movies. "wax on,
wax off"
Respectfully,
John
-------------------
I disagree with your definition of a "good teacher." You're describing one
possible aspect of a teaching/learning experience. IF it is important for
the student to first understand the "why" of something, then yes, a good
teacher will do that. If it is not important that the student understand
the "why" until later, the good teacher simply offers the instruction and
gets the student on the right path -- and it is for the teacher, not the
student, to decide the relevance or need for knowing the "why" of a lesson.

I respectfully suggest that "it works" when the student is a good student.
I further suggest that when the teacher can't offer instruction without
first convincing the student that the instruction is worthwhile, two people's
time is being wasted.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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I couldn't disagree with this example more. "Doing" does not lead to doing
well. Sometimes it leads to continued patterns of poor performance.
Especially when theory is ignored. They are equally important for
excellence.

But this example misses the core of my argument. Not everyone learns the
same way. Some learn BEST by understanding theory first. Others learn BEST
by trial and error.

Nuff said,
Sean
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:27 PM
Subject: [IBC] Odd distinctions


Hi Sean,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Nemecek"
snip
They're two parts of process and the practice is the most important, by
far.
snip
Yes they are two parts of the process. However, one cannot be elevated
above another. Many people who are principle oriented learners, need to
have the theory in order to be able to do the practice. For them theory
is
more important. However, it is incomplete without practice.
snip
Humbly,
Sean Nemecek
------------------

I think that I can refute your premise by citing the following (extreme)
example: If a person merely "does" (presumably as instructed) and get no
theory, this person will be able to perform the skills and since this
individual also has some intelligence, he/she will have come to understand
many things from this practice - probably all of the theory that would
otherwise have been offered.

However, if a person gets theory only, no matter how long this kind of
"instruction" is offered, the student will not have the capacity to "do"
the
work.

Yes, they are both good parts of the process, but practice is simply the
more important of the two.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas


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----- Original Message -----
From: "John NJ"
From: Andy Rutledge

Yes, they are both good parts of the process,
but practice is simply the more important of the two.
------
Uss, Sensei.
---------------------------

Hmm, maybe you're thinking of "Ossu"? ;-)
(made from "osu" (to push) and "shinobu" (roughly: patience)).

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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Sorry Andy. My japanese spell checker is on the fritz. g

From: Andy Rutledge
Hmm, maybe you're thinking of "Ossu"? ;-)
(made from "osu" (to push) and "shinobu" (roughly: patience)).

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From: Jim Lewis


So everybody is different.


First statement in the thread that no one can dispute although someone will try . We can argue, or as my dad used to say, discuss this all day and it still comes down to what Jim stated above. Find what works for you and do it.

Len

PLEASE NOTE MY NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS:

http://www.bonsairi.com
http://www.rhodeislandbonsaisociety.org

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Walker"
Practice is essential to learning skills. Andy's right about
that. I don't
hear anyone disagreeing with that. ( That's why I don't know how to play
the
piano!) Where there is disagreement is with the extreme notion that
practice is the
only thing that matters in acquiring skills. That ignores vast areas of
variables
in motivation and learning theory.
---------------

So long as you recognize that I've never suggested practice without theory
is ideal, there is no disagreement. In fact, I've already stated a few
times that theory/practice are both important parts of the process.
---------------

Nonetheless, I am looking forward to learning from Andy's book on
How to
Teach Bonsai. I hope it's more than one page saying practice, practice,
practice!
;-)
Alan Walker
-------------------

;-)
Hmmmm, lemme do with more learning bonsai first. I doubt that I'll be
writing that book in any event. ;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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John,

I wanted to share an experience we have with our martial arts instructor.
He teaches several different classes in different forms. One of the things
we can depend on is for him to go over the basics each and every class. He
often goes into sometimes long explanations as to why such-and-such a thing
was done, or how it developed.

He has commented several times that in another class, someone may be two or
two-and-a-half years into study. They suddenly realize how or why something
works, they find themselves *understanding*. Often the student will ask,
"Why didn't you tell us how this worked, its so simple". Our instructor
will often good naturedly replies, "Well, I did tell you that, probably
every session you've attended in the past two years, it was just that you
were not ready to hear it until now. And it is only simple once you know it,
if it is so simple, why didn't you figure this out right when you started".

Sometimes you have to obtain a certain level of understanding before you can
incorporate and make use of some information or training. It doesn't
necessarily have to be "advanced" information either.

Our instructor comments that repetition in practice teaches muscle memory,
and once you can free your mind from having to concentrate on "now move this
foot, now move this arm, etc" you can focus on the centering and spirit with
which the form should be practiced. Just making the right moves in the
proper order is not the goal. Many repeations of a form poorly is not good.
It can take months to overcome the bad habit learned in a week or two of
bad practice.

Ourinstructor is not Japanese, but did receive much of his initial training
there. He is very typically not Japanese in one other, sometimes startling
way. In Japan no student points out that the instructor did something
wrong. Our instructor asks us frequently to call him on it if he says one
thing or does another, or does anything sloppy. Locally he has no peer or
higher ranking companion to help "keep him honest".

Good teachers clearly explain the process beforehand so that
the student
knows why he is doing something over and over. The method
you're
describing. following instructions blindly, only works for Mr.
Miyagi in the
Karate Kid movies. "wax on, wax off"


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At 02:59 PM 2/27/03 -0800, sam crowell wrote:
....

He has commented several times that in another class, someone may be two or
two-and-a-half years into study. They suddenly realize how or why something
works, they find themselves *understanding*. Often the student will ask,
"Why didn't you tell us how this worked, its so simple". Our instructor
will often good naturedly replies, "Well, I did tell you that, probably
every session you've attended in the past two years, it was just that you
were not ready to hear it until now. And it is only simple once you know it,
if it is so simple, why didn't you figure this out right when you started".
.....

Sam

I love those kind of revelations. The most powerful one I ever had was
sitting in a Physics class in college, sitting there seething at this
instructor that was a complete jerk. He was talking about gravity and
orbital motion. All at once, and despite my distraction, I realized what
he was talking about. All my life I had marveled that orbiting bodies were
in _perfect_ balance, their circular momentum exactly cancelling out the
force of gravity. But besides the awe, I was also bothered. There are a
_lot_ of these things. How can there be so many in perfect balance. Even
though I wasn't particularly listening to this guy, the answer can through
and hit me in the face like a wet towel. These are _falling bodies_. Now to
most of you this is probably obvious, but somehow I had made it that far
into life without realizing the beauty and truth of orbital mechanics.
Orbiting bodies have no other choice but to follow their eliptical paths
once captured by the larger body. If we had a lower gravity and stronger
arms, we could create orbiting bodies by throwing objects at the escape
velocity at some upward angle from horizontal. If we could throw hard
enough, the object would still fall, but would no longer fall to earth, it
would fall off the edge and into orbit. It would still be a falling body,
but would no longer land.

I can still feel that moment of enlightenment, the power of understanding.
But I still think that guy was a total jerk.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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