There is a tendency on the part of some here to fail to recognize one
distinction and to impose other distinctions that make no sense.

First, there is no difference between how beginners should learn and how
experienced artists should learn. Both involve having a high standard and
putting in the actual work to approach that standard. It does not follow
logic and serves no positive purpose to suggest that beginners should learn
only by watching and in a no-expectation environment and that experienced
artists should learn in demanding and intimidating one. People learn by
doing and by doing, repetitiously - augmented by (not substituted with!)
theory instruction. Training methods are either good or bad, not "newbie or
elite."

Also, believing that elements like hard work and repetition and standards
are to be relegated to experienced or advanced growers/artists is a false
belief. This is another odd distinction that has been invented and held to
by some.

Too many don't seem to recognize the distinction between championing good
training, hard work and standards and championing condescension, elitism and
worthless criticism. There is a great distinction between these ideals and
to lump them together (leaning heavily toward the latter group when someone
suggests the former group) is vacuous, unfair and unkind.

Surely there are many, especially beginners, who are not interested in
developing great skill or understanding. Keeping happy, beautiful trees
that meet with their own approval is plenty for some and this is wonderful.
However, there is no reason that those who subscribe to this ideal should
feel compelled to offer up their ideas as counter to the ideals of those who
want to become better artists. The two ideals are not antithetical, they're
merely two sides of the same coin. The one does not diminish the other so
there is no reason for antagonism and debate between the two ideals.
Rather, the one simply has nothing to do with the other.

There can logically be no value judgments in this regard, so to suggest that
one is better than the other is a non sequitur. Those who have no interest
in furthering theirs or others' skill and understanding should not be
shouting down the positive (even if uncomfortable) insights from those who
are so interested. Can we operate instead under the idea that one is
"different" from the other? That would surely save us all a lot of
pointless debate.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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snip
People learn by doing and by doing, repetitiously - augmented by (not
substituted with!) theory instruction.
snip

This is not entirely true. There are many different learning styles. Some
actually learn better by observing first then doing the activity. Others
can jump right in and learn by doing. Not everyone is wired the same way
(pardon the pun).

Those of us who are in teaching professions know that both the teacher and
then student have responsibilities in the learning process. The teacher
must attempt to adjust the lesson to the learning style of the student. The
student has the responsibility of actually doing the work of learning.

If IBC is a place of both teaching and learning, then it is a good idea to
offer teaching that speaks to a variety of learning styles.


Sean Nemecek - Cadillac, MI - Zone 4b or 5a


"When growth ceases decay begins."

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The only point I might make Andy, is that a beginner in any art form (unless
extraordinarily blessed with self-awareness or ability in that medium, a
'natural' if you will) might not know 'how to learn' as efficiently or
readily as a more experienced artist.

On the other hand, a more experienced artist might not be able to 'empty his
cup' and embrace whatever techniques, philosophy, and aesthetics that are
being taught.

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Andy Rutledge
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:36 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Odd distinctions


There is a tendency on the part of some here to fail to recognize one
distinction and to impose other distinctions that make no sense.

First, there is no difference between how beginners should learn and how
experienced artists should learn. Both involve having a high standard and
putting in the actual work to approach that standard. It does not follow
logic and serves no positive purpose to suggest that beginners
should learn
only by watching and in a no-expectation environment and that experienced
artists should learn in demanding and intimidating one. People learn by
doing and by doing, repetitiously - augmented by (not substituted with!)
theory instruction. Training methods are either good or bad, not
"newbie or
elite."

Also, believing that elements like hard work and repetition and standards
are to be relegated to experienced or advanced growers/artists is a false
belief. This is another odd distinction that has been invented
and held to
by some.

Too many don't seem to recognize the distinction between championing good
training, hard work and standards and championing condescension,
elitism and
worthless criticism. There is a great distinction between these
ideals and
to lump them together (leaning heavily toward the latter group
when someone
suggests the former group) is vacuous, unfair and unkind.

Surely there are many, especially beginners, who are not interested in
developing great skill or understanding. Keeping happy, beautiful trees
that meet with their own approval is plenty for some and this is
wonderful.
However, there is no reason that those who subscribe to this ideal should
feel compelled to offer up their ideas as counter to the ideals
of those who
want to become better artists. The two ideals are not
antithetical, they're
merely two sides of the same coin. The one does not diminish the other so
there is no reason for antagonism and debate between the two ideals.
Rather, the one simply has nothing to do with the other.

There can logically be no value judgments in this regard, so to
suggest that
one is better than the other is a non sequitur. Those who have
no interest
in furthering theirs or others' skill and understanding should not be
shouting down the positive (even if uncomfortable) insights from those who
are so interested. Can we operate instead under the idea that one is
"different" from the other? That would surely save us all a lot of
pointless debate.

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Nemecek"
This is not entirely true. There are many different learning styles.
Some
actually learn better by observing first then doing the activity. Others
can jump right in and learn by doing. Not everyone is wired the same way
(pardon the pun).
--------------

You have not contradicted my statments, but have said what I said with
emphasis on order of instruction. I'm happy to see that you agree that
doing is the crucial element (and the context of my remarks was for bonsai
study, of course)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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Those of us who are in teaching professions know that both the teacher and
then student have responsibilities in the learning process. The teacher
must attempt to adjust the lesson to the learning style of the student.
The
student has the responsibility of actually doing the work of learning.
--------------

In bonsai, unless the "learning style" of the student involves doing, over
and over, the student will not learn.
--------------

If IBC is a place of both teaching and learning, then it is a good idea to
offer teaching that speaks to a variety of learning styles.
Sean Nemecek
--------------

Since the IBC can offer only intellectual insights and theory, I'm not sure
what you're saying here. Also, any teaching style (for bonsai) that eschews
physical work and repetition is of very low value.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Bockman"
The only point I might make Andy, is that a beginner in any art form
(unless
extraordinarily blessed with self-awareness or ability in that medium, a
'natural' if you will) might not know 'how to learn' as efficiently or
readily as a more experienced artist.
-------------

Sure! This is why the guidance of the teacher or those more experienced is
key. This is why beginners do best by following instruction rather than
trying to first understand why they should follow it. When the teacher
says, "Do this, over and over." it is worthless for the beginner (who by
definition lacks the fundamental understanding of what he/she should be
doing) to decide that it might be better to just read a book instead. When
beginning students start dictating the teaching methods, there is no value
in the process. Obviously, I'm talking about more than bonsai here...
-------------

On the other hand, a more experienced artist might not be able to 'empty
his
cup' and embrace whatever techniques, philosophy, and aesthetics that are
being taught.
David J. Bockman
---------------

Absolutely true. It is often hard to disregard what one believes to be
one's own level of understanding, so that new instruction can become skill
and understanding. This is why when someone goes to learn from someone
else, they need to empty their cup and actually become a student.

Seeking instruction with the idea that one "may" accept it if it jives with
currently held ideas is utterly worthless; a waste of time for both the
teacher and the "student."

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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This is not entirely true. There are many different learning
styles. Some
actually learn better by observing first then doing the
activity. Others
can jump right in and learn by doing. Not everyone is wired
the same way
(pardon the pun).

Those of us who are in teaching professions know that both the
teacher and
then student have responsibilities in the learning process.
The teacher
must attempt to adjust the lesson to the learning style of the
student. The
student has the responsibility of actually doing the work of
learning.


Both statements are 100% true. I was involved in education for
MANY years, and there are many ways to teach -- and just as many
ways to learn.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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Andy:

Good teachers clearly explain the process beforehand so that the student
knows why he is doing something over and over. The method you're
describing. following instructions blindly, only works for Mr. Miyagi in the
Karate Kid movies. "wax on, wax off"

Respectfully,
John


From: Andy Rutledge

This is why beginners do best by following instruction
rather than trying to first understand why they should
follow it. When the teacher says, "Do this, over and
over." it is worthless for the beginner (who by definition lacks the
fundamental understanding of what
he/she should be doing) to decide that it might be
better to just read a book instead. When beginning
students start dictating the teaching methods,
there is no value in the process. Obviously, I'm
talking about more than bonsai here...


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Andy,
What I was trying to say is that for some people learning by doing is
enhanced by first learning through observation. For these people to jump in
and start doing would be very intimidating and perhaps prohibitive. Of
course the will eventually have to start the repetative actions but they
need the concepts before the physical work can begin.

Personally, I need the theory before the physical work and practice. This
allows me to approach the work with some small amount of wisdom. It also
allows me to know how to correct my mistakes when they occur.

While we agree that hard work and repetition is essential, I do not want to
discount the importance of theory for some people. There is no such thing
as a universal approach to learning. We need to be flexible.

Sean Nemecek - Cadillac, MI - Zone 4b or 5a


"When growth ceases decay begins."

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For my own part, I have often found that watching a video, reading a well
written or well illustrated article, or watching a demonstration of a
process is often the perfect bridge between being curious about doing
something, and finding myself doing it. I am talking about feeling informed
enough to try it the *first* time. I think this would be the value to the
bonsai community, and particularly the bonsai community that is emerging.

Repetition, practice, and real learning follows. (Or doesn't) :-p

Sam Crowell
Klamath Falls, OR

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Hi Sean,

I never said that theory is worthless. I said that theory is worthless
without repetitious work. We're not as far apart as you seem to think.

The problem arises when the student begins to understand the theory and then
thinks they've learned something - and wants to move on to something else.
There's nothing wrong with theory/practice. But few are willing to put in
the practice, especially after they find out that it's boring and difficult.

I take issue with the idea that theory and practice are two different ways
to learn. They're not. They're two parts of process and the practice is the
most important, by far.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Nemecek"
Andy,
What I was trying to say is that for some people learning by doing is
enhanced by first learning through observation. For these people to jump
in
and start doing would be very intimidating and perhaps prohibitive. Of
course the will eventually have to start the repetative actions but they
need the concepts before the physical work can begin.

Personally, I need the theory before the physical work and practice. This
allows me to approach the work with some small amount of wisdom. It also
allows me to know how to correct my mistakes when they occur.

While we agree that hard work and repetition is essential, I do not want
to
discount the importance of theory for some people. There is no such thing
as a universal approach to learning. We need to be flexible.

Sean Nemecek

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John NJ"
Andy:
Good teachers clearly explain the process beforehand so that the student
knows why he is doing something over and over. The method you're
describing. following instructions blindly, only works for Mr. Miyagi in
the
Karate Kid movies. "wax on, wax off"
Respectfully,
John
-------------------

I disagree with your definition of a "good teacher." You're describing one
possible aspect of a teaching/learning experience. IF it is important for
the student to first understand the "why" of something, then yes, a good
teacher will do that. If it is not important that the student understand
the "why" until later, the good teacher simply offers the instruction and
gets the student on the right path -- and it is for the teacher, not the
student, to decide the relvance or need for knowing the "why" of a lesson.

I respectfully suggest that "it works" when the student is a good student.
I further suggest that when the teacher can't offer instruction without
first convicing the student that the instruction is worthwhile, two people's
time is being wasted.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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Andy,
snip
The problem arises when the student begins to understand the theory and
then thinks they've learned something - and wants to move on to something
else.
snip

I couldn't agree more.

snip
I take issue with the idea that theory and practice are two different ways
to learn. They're not.
snip

I agree.

snip
They're two parts of process and the practice is the most important, by
far.
snip

Yes they are two parts of the process. However, one cannot be elevated
above another. Many people who are principle oriented learners, need to
have the theory in order to be able to do the practice. For them theory is
more important. However, it is incomplete without practice.

For some people practice is all important and theory is confusing. They tend
to learn better by doing.

All I am trying to say is that a broad based approach will speak to the most
people. Providing theory will allow principle centered learners to enter
into the practices of Bonsai more readily. Others will jump right in and
ignore the theory (but unknowingly learn some of it in the process).

Your analysis is insightful. Practice is where everything comes together.
But some people will never really get to that part without the theory. We
are all made a little differently. In my opinion this is something to
celebrate!

Humbly,
Sean Nemecek

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Hi Sean,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Nemecek"
snip
They're two parts of process and the practice is the most important, by
far.
snip
Yes they are two parts of the process. However, one cannot be elevated
above another. Many people who are principle oriented learners, need to
have the theory in order to be able to do the practice. For them theory
is
more important. However, it is incomplete without practice.
snip
Humbly,
Sean Nemecek
------------------

I think that I can refute your premise by citing the following (extreme)
example: If a person merely "does" (presumably as instructed) and get no
theory, this person will be able to perform the skills and since this
individual also has some intelligence, he/she will have come to understand
many things from this practice - probably all of the theory that would
otherwise have been offered.

However, if a person gets theory only, no matter how long this kind of
"instruction" is offered, the student will not have the capacity to "do" the
work.

Yes, they are both good parts of the process, but practice is simply the
more important of the two.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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From: Andy Rutledge

Yes, they are both good parts of the process,
but practice is simply the more important of the two.

Uss, Sensei.

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