OK bonsai does mean tray planting in a direct literal translation. Bonsai
evolved from Penging, each evolving as the cultures evolved. The idea was
to bring a tree to the emperor instead of the emperor needing to walk to
the tree. So who is to say that this borrowed sport can't have its rules
rewritten as it moves across the world? Are we not each master of our own
domain?

I have a preference for what and how I grow my bonsai, but I have to
readily admit that what I do is not the only way. There are things
mentioned on this list that I would never do because they won't work here,
but that doesn't mean they are wrong for the poster.

Ease up guys. Life is short. Have fun.

Kitsune Miko

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----- Original Message -----

OK bonsai does mean tray planting in a direct literal translation. Bonsai
evolved from Penging, each evolving as the cultures evolved. The idea was
to bring a tree to the emperor instead of the emperor needing to walk to
the tree.
Kitsune Miko


Great information! Could you tell me where is the
source for your statement? It could be a breakthrough
contribution to the history of bonsai and penjing.

Thank you in advance.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma

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Peter, et al.

I recall reading this also, perhaps in Koreshoff.


----- Original Message -----
From: "p.aradi"
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 3:14 PM
Subject: [IBC] Hmmm was/ Is this a Bonsai?


----- Original Message -----

OK bonsai does mean tray planting in a direct literal translation.
Bonsai
evolved from Penging, each evolving as the cultures evolved. The idea
was
to bring a tree to the emperor instead of the emperor needing to walk to
the tree.
Kitsune Miko


Great information! Could you tell me where is the
source for your statement? It could be a breakthrough
contribution to the history of bonsai and penjing.

Thank you in advance.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma


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What we do is called Bonsai. I follow the proscripts of the Japanese
because I am attempting to do Bonsai. By definition, if I were to
leave the Japanese influence behind and start doing other styling,
selection, potting, etc, techniques and following rewritten rules, I
would no longer doing Bonsai. Were I to fill my library with Penjing
books and follow their recommendations, I would be unable to call my
trees "Bonsai" because they would not be such.

Penjing is not Bonsai because it follows rewritten rules. If you want
to do things differently than what is recommended by Bonsai masters,
you have two choices:
1) Don't call it Bonsai.
2) Call it Bonsai but accept that your trees will not be called Bonsai
by Bonsai growers.
We all break the rules of Bonsai. Many trees just won't cooperate
with our rules and expectations. Different climates make many
techniques useless, but the rules of scale and styling remain close
enough that the trees are still considered Bonsai.

There are plenty of growers who have the time to experiment with both
non-Bonsai techniques and non-Bonsai rules. Some are Bonsai masters
who know beforehand that they are growing something alien to Bonsai.
Others are people who know little of Bonsai, but want to grow trees in
pots and experiment with the many variables involved before finding a
balance that produces what they would like to see in their trees.
Neither route works for me. I want to grow Bonsai and Bonsai methods
seem to be the best route to take. (for me)

I'll never be a master. I don't have the commitment or the time. I
enjoy Bonsai because the rules are fairly well laid out and there is a
large support group here In New Orleans and here on the Internet.
Plenty of books and magazines are available as well.

If you decide to do something other than Bonsai, you cut yourself off
from the hundreds of years of history in the discipline. You also cut
yourself off from the thousands of people available to you in your
community and on the Internet. Books and magazines on Bonsai become
worthless or at least difficult to adapt to your growing techniques.
After all, you'll be creating "trees-in-a-pot" using rewritten rules.
You can create beautiful trees-in-a-pot, but they will not be
recognized as "bonsai" because you want to create something as
different from Bonsai as Bonsai is different from Penjing.

If you choose to call your trees "Bonsai" but you have left enough of
the Bonsai rules behind, you will be constantly defending your trees.
That's just the nature of it. Bonsai growers expect a tree to look
and grow and be potted in very particular ways. To me, the litteral
translation of Bonsai as "tree-in-a-pot" has nothing to do with
putting a specimen of tree into a pot. To me "tree-in-a-pot" means
putting a tree found in nature into a pot. The tree with all of it's
majesty and proportion and sense of awe, just as you would find it on
a mountain top or in a swamp, but in a pot in my backyard instead. If
you were to do some Photoshop editing and digitally remove it from
it's pot place a bonsai in a photo of a leafy glade, a mountain top,
or a boggy swamp, it should look right at home.

Anyone can buy a bald cypress from Home Depot and stick it in a big
terra cotta pot. But what then? What are the grower's goals? What
are the plans for feeding, trimming, watering, soil, etc? Does the
grower have plans that take into account the fate of the tree in 5
years? 20 years? Give me a bald cypress and the first thing I do is
make plans that involve my background in Bonsai.

I don't know how far off you are from Bonsai, but if you felt the need
to post your message, I have to assume that you are fairly far from
what we are doing and recommending. True, each area has it's own
needs, but much of what we do will translate to other areas of the
world. Tropicals in Canada versus South Florida will have GREATLY
differing techniques for keeping the plants thriving as bonsai. But
the styling recommendations remain the same. If a Canadian can keep a
Buttonwood alive and well, photographs of either tree will reflect the
same Japanese influence. A Bonsai grower in California should not be
able to easily tell the difference between the two trees.

Okay, so it's late (1am here) and I'm starting to ramble. I don't
know what you mean by "There are things mentioned on this list that I
would never do because they won't work here." But you also said "So
who is to say that this borrowed sport can't have its rules rewritten
as it moves across the world?" So I have to assume that you are
questioning some of the foundations of Bonsai. That's what really
prompted my rather lengthy response. I encourage you to pursue your
endeavors in rewriting the rules of this "borrowed sport." No one is
saying that the rules cannot be rewritten. They'll most likely tell
you that it's not Bonsai, but that doesn't mean what you've created
lacks artistic merit. But given your knowledge in the evolution of
Bonsai from Penjing, you should expect that people will want you to
come up with a new name alltogether.

Good Luck,
Bill Butler

www.gnobs.org (Annual Auction, August 16th!)


P.S. I would like more information on what you mean by "they won't
work here" as well as examples of rules that need rewriting.

By definition, if I were to leave the Japanese influence behind and start
doing other styling, selection, potting, etc, techniques and following
rewritten rules, I would no longer doing Bonsai.

I dunno. If you write a play set to music, complete with recitative & arias,
but it isn't in Italian & doesn't follow classic Italian styling, is it still
an opera?
If you make an object out of a folded square of paper, but you depart from
traditional Japanese rules, is it still origami?
If you create a modern American picture out of little squares of plastic with a
glue that was invented five years ago, is it still a mosaic?
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

By definition, if I were to leave the Japanese influence
behind and start
doing other styling, selection, potting, etc, techniques and
following
rewritten rules, I would no longer doing Bonsai.

I dunno. If you write a play set to music, complete with
recitative & arias,
but it isn't in Italian & doesn't follow classic Italian
styling, is it still
an opera?
If you make an object out of a folded square of paper, but you
depart from
traditional Japanese rules, is it still origami?
If you create a modern American picture out of little squares
of plastic with a
glue that was invented five years ago, is it still a mosaic?
Iris,

Thanks, Iris. Saves me from starting ANOTHER fight by making it
unnecessary to pick apart that holey (as in filled with holes)
argument. ;-)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician

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In a message dated 7/27/2003 2:44:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

Tropicals in Canada versus South Florida will have GREATLY
differing techniques for keeping the plants thriving as bonsai. But
the styling recommendations remain the same. If a Canadian can keep a
Buttonwood alive and well, photographs of either tree will reflect the
same Japanese influence. A Bonsai grower in California should not be
able to easily tell the difference between the two trees.


But a Buttonwood, no matter where it is grown, will look like a traditional
"Japanese" Bonsai. The group has had this discussion before and came to the
conclusion that "Bonsai is in the eye of the beholder."
I am told that the experts in Japan can look at a tree and tell which of the
masters grew it. I know that people in our club have their distinctive style.
I would hope that the Buttonwoods from Florida, Canada and California would
each show their distinctive style.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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Penjing is not Bonsai because it follows rewritten rules.

Hmmm, I hate to be contradictory, but.... It would rather be the other way
around, Bonsai follows re-written rules, since Penjing originated in China,
*before* the Japanese "stole" the art...

In general, I agree with your principles. As a chef by trade, I firmly
believe that a beef stew with red wine isn't Beef Bourguignon if it doesn't
have the glazed perl onions, lardons, and mushroom, and other assorted
things.

But I don't know that I'd be as strict as you are with my thinking on Bonsai.

Nicolas
http://www.bmee.net
"A community that excludes even one of its members is no community at all"
- Dan Wilkins
"You must deal with me as I think of myself" J. Hockenberry

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At 01:20 AM 7/27/2003 -0500, Bill Butler wrote:
What we do is called Bonsai. I follow the proscripts of the Japanese
because I am attempting to do Bonsai. By definition, if I were to
leave the Japanese influence behind and start doing other styling,
selection, potting, etc, techniques and following rewritten rules, I
would no longer doing Bonsai. Were I to fill my library with Penjing
books and follow their recommendations, I would be unable to call my
trees "Bonsai" because they would not be such.


I do this also. I am classically trained in bonsai by two now gone
Japanese bonsai masters. Neither of them called themselves masters because
they kept learning, but they both devoted their lives to the art.


Penjing is not Bonsai because it follows rewritten rules. If you want
to do things differently than what is recommended by Bonsai masters,
you have two choices:
1) Don't call it Bonsai.
2) Call it Bonsai but accept that your trees will not be called Bonsai
by Bonsai growers.
We all break the rules of Bonsai. Many trees just won't cooperate
with our rules and expectations. Different climates make many
techniques useless, but the rules of scale and styling remain close
enough that the trees are still considered Bonsai.


I agree with this also, but words change meaning with usage. (I remember
when gay meant happy.) So if there is a bunch of stuff called bonsai for
sale that is not (by the classical definition) bonsai. The common usage of
the word will change. The word mallsai will not sell as well as
bonsai. I used to talk to nursery managers of all places where the rocks
were glued on and beg them to stop supporting the manufacture of these
doomed plants. They would shrug their shoulders and say that is all they
could get. I talked to the manufacturers of these abominations and they
said that was the only way they would sell. That the ones with the loose
soil were not acceptable to the nurseries because of time required in handling.

I'll never be a master. I don't have the commitment or the time. I
enjoy Bonsai because the rules are fairly well laid out and there is a
large support group here In New Orleans and here on the Internet.
Plenty of books and magazines are available as well.

Nor will I. Nor will I judge others because I am not a master.


If you decide to do something other than Bonsai, you cut yourself off
from the hundreds of years of history in the discipline. You also cut
yourself off from the thousands of people available to you in your
community and on the Internet.

Yes but why do we turn them away with harsh comments? These are the
possible converts because they have an interest.


If you choose to call your trees "Bonsai" but you have left enough of
the Bonsai rules behind, you will be constantly defending your trees.
That's just the nature of it.

Yes but....We are now the smaller group of folks doing what is truly
bonsai. We are out numbered by dead sticks with glued on rocks.


I don't know how far off you are from Bonsai, but if you felt the need
to post your message, I have to assume that you are fairly far from
what we are doing and recommending. True, each area has it's own
needs, but much of what we do will translate to other areas of the
world. Tropicals in Canada versus South Florida will have GREATLY
differing techniques for keeping the plants thriving as bonsai. But
the styling recommendations remain the same. If a Canadian can keep a
Buttonwood alive and well, photographs of either tree will reflect the
same Japanese influence. A Bonsai grower in California should not be
able to easily tell the difference between the two trees.

If they don't do buttonwood in Japan is it really suitable bonsai material?


Okay, so it's late (1am here) and I'm starting to ramble. I don't
know what you mean by "There are things mentioned on this list that I
would never do because they won't work here."

I am in California and would not attempt button wood, fukien tea, or bald
cypress. I would only transplant from January through March and then a few
in late September/October to have a healing growth spurt before dormancy
and the possibility of winter root rot. This is the re-potting schedule
used in Japan and our climates are similar. Does that make it the only
right transplant schedule? It is tradtional.

But you also said "So
who is to say that this borrowed sport can't have its rules rewritten
as it moves across the world?" So I have to assume that you are
questioning some of the foundations of Bonsai.

I don't question the foundations as much as I see again the common usage of
the word change meanings. Traditionally tropical plants are NOT bonsai
(the leaves are many times too big and they don't do well enough in all of
Japan), but if you can only grow tropicals with traditional bonsai styling,
should you have some higher authority tell you that you are not doing bonsai?

That's what really
prompted my rather lengthy response. I encourage you to pursue your
endeavors in rewriting the rules of this "borrowed sport." No one is
saying that the rules cannot be rewritten. They'll most likely tell
you that it's not Bonsai, but that doesn't mean what you've created
lacks artistic merit. But given your knowledge in the evolution of
Bonsai from Penjing, you should expect that people will want you to
come up with a new name alltogether.
I agree that there should be a new name, but I think you will only succeed
in calling plants traditional bonsai and bonsai influenced. I don't think
you will get the general public to stop seeing what the malls are selling
as un bonsai. You have a voice larger than their own mis-using a term that
will not be questioned by the average Joe/Jane.

Do you want to turn these folks away because they made a dumb fist purchase
or do you want to encourage them to explore further? They have the
interest to get involved.

I would not buy a plant I couldn't fondle before purchase, so I wouldn't
buy by mail order from anyone but Brent. I have seen his stock and would
be proud to own anyone he sent me. Yet there are many traditionalists on
this list that have had luck with mail order. Do I tell them they are wrong?

I grow pines, elms, maples, crabapple, azaleas. I consider these my true
bonsai. I am purist enough to not consider serissa real bonsai, but I
would never take away the joy of doing from someone with a budding interest
in the sport. I have PERSONAL standards that I expect me to meet. I do
not require validation of my standards by others. I hold no lofty position
that makes me holier than thou. I have not re-written rules, but I see
them trampled on such a regular basis, that I do not tell others what is
right anymore.

Kitsune Miko

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On 27 Jul 2003 08:54:03 -0700, (Kitsune Miko) wrote:

I agree with this also, but words change meaning with usage. (I remember
when gay meant happy.) So if there is a bunch of stuff called bonsai for
sale that is not (by the classical definition) bonsai. The common usage of
the word will change. The word mallsai will not sell as well as
bonsai. I used to talk to nursery managers of all places where the rocks
were glued on and beg them to stop supporting the manufacture of these
doomed plants. They would shrug their shoulders and say that is all they
could get. I talked to the manufacturers of these abominations and they
said that was the only way they would sell. That the ones with the loose
soil were not acceptable to the nurseries because of time required in handling.


Oh I hope the meaning of Bonsai doesn't change to fit with what people
see at Sam's or Home Depot. I fear you may be right, however. Any
changes in the public's perception of Bonsai, or the acceptable use of
the word Bonsai that comes as a result of dead-sticks-glued-rock trees
cannot be good. The best thing we can do is educate the public
whereever our trees are shown.

I've been told that Bonsai is Bonsai when we intend to grow it as such
and when we are happy that the result has met with our expectations of
the tree as Bonsai. Mass-produced glued-rock mall-sai are certainly
Bonsai, in this sense, because the creators of these trees INTENDED to
grow Bonsai. The buyers, though they be novices, certainly see the
trees as bonsai an are happy enough with the results to purchase the
trees. The problem for me is that the larger intent of the
manufacturers is to produce many trees that survive as long as the
trip to the check-out register. They leave so much of the Japanese
rules and techniques behind that I think the only thing Japanese about
the trees is the SHAPE of the pot. And what is the result? A tree
that is destined/designed to die as a direct result of very bad
styling techniques. The trees are Bonsai because the makers and
buyers of such see the trees as Bonsai. However, in the larger sense,
these trees are not Bonsai, regardless of how they are perceived by
the mass-marketing nurseries and novice buyers.

As for changes in what we expect of Bonsai coming from within the
community at large, I think that is inevitable. Take a look at the
cultural changes that have come about in the last 100 years as a
result of ever-increasing speeds in communications. Now with the
Internet, we can exchange not only textual or verbal information
instantly, but we can also exchange visual information. We cannot
expect people to keep Bonsai in the Japanese tradition when we're
talking about the global influence of growers everywhere. Different
ideas, artistic skills, climates, available material, etc, will
continue to create sects within Bonsai that eventually change the
dicipline as a whole.

I suspect that historians will be better suited to see the changes
than you or I. While instant communications may change music and
fashion faster than our teens can beg us for more money, there is one
underlying factor in Bonsai that throtles the influence of fads: The
trees refuse to grow fast enough to fit the fads. While several of us
can work together to develop new techniques or stylings, in the end,
it is the test of time that proves us right or wrong. Is there a
higher authority that judges us? No, not in the sense of any one
governing board or person. But time will tell.

Bill Butler

--- Bill Butler wrote:
On 27 Jul 2003 08:54:03 -0700,
(Kitsune Miko) wrote:

I agree with this also, but words change meaning
with usage. (I remember
when gay meant happy.) So if there is a bunch of
stuff called bonsai for
sale that is not (by the classical definition)
bonsai. The common usage of
the word will change. The word mallsai will not
sell as well as
bonsai. I used to talk to nursery managers of all
places where the rocks
were glued on and beg them to stop supporting the
manufacture of these
doomed plants. They would shrug their shoulders
and say that is all they
could get. I talked to the manufacturers of these
abominations and they
said that was the only way they would sell. That
the ones with the loose
soil were not acceptable to the nurseries because
of time required in handling.


Oh I hope the meaning of Bonsai doesn't change to
fit with what people
see at Sam's or Home Depot. I fear you may be
right, however. Any
changes in the public's perception of Bonsai, or the
acceptable use of
the word Bonsai that comes as a result of
dead-sticks-glued-rock trees
cannot be good. The best thing we can do is educate
the public
whereever our trees are shown.

This is why I feel that when these people that have
bought mallsai come here to complain about their
"bonsai" we should be more gentle and less lofty in
our comments back to them. They have an interest.
They can be educated, but if we use the dog training
technique that punnishes the dog for returning when
called, they won't come anymore.

Yes but the sign said it was a bonsai when I bought
it.

Kitsune Miko

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Kitsune Miko said .......

........ if we use the dog training technique that punishes the dog for
returning when called, they won't come anymore.


I agree Kitsune !!

I'm a newbie who started my Bonsai career with a sad looking mallsai my kids
gave me as a present.
Not knowing much about the art, I visited the local book store and purchased
a number of books by Colin Lewis, Herb Gustafson, Paul Lesniewicz and Amy
Lang. It took me another week to find this excellent mailing list and post a
few "newbie" questions.

I quickly discovered that my little juniper was not a bonsai at all, but in
fact nothing more than a little cutting that someone had poked into lousy
potting soil then held it in place with a bunch of glued rocks.

The short story is, a year later, I've taken 8 courses from Jim Doyle at
Natures Way, and my little mallsai looks great in it's new pot and soil,
sitting next to the 10 other beauties from my classes. Some day it may even
turn into a little shohin! At the moment, I'm proud that I managed to keep
the little critter alive.

If it wasn't for the kind and gentle words of members of this group, and my
insatiable appetite to educate myself, I may have moved onto other less
demanding sports. After all, it takes less effort to go golfing on the
weekend than to raise a dozen trees.

When someone posts "I just bought a bonsai at Wal-Mart and what should I do
with it?" don't get snooty and tell them it's not a bonsai and it probably
won't live anyway. Encourage them to read and learn, and ..... remember how
proud you where when you brought your first tree home !!

Rather than getting upset with *Mart for selling trees that may not live,
why not ask them if you could put a pile of your associations leaflets near
their display. Who knows, you might encourage someone to learn.

Remember .... we all started somewhere.

Mark Hill - Zone 6 - Mechanicsburg PA.

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Kitsune Miko said .......

....... if we use the dog training technique that punishes the
dog for
returning when called, they won't come anymore.


I agree Kitsune !!

I'm a newbie who started my Bonsai career with a sad looking
mallsai my kids
gave me as a present.
Not knowing much about the art, I visited the local book store
and purchased
a number of books by Colin Lewis, Herb Gustafson, Paul
Lesniewicz and Amy
Lang. It took me another week to find this excellent mailing
list and post a
few "newbie" questions.

I quickly discovered that my little juniper was not a bonsai at
all, but in
fact nothing more than a little cutting that someone had poked
into lousy
potting soil then held it in place with a bunch of glued rocks.


I agree with both of you, but do you know how lucky you were,
Mark? Most juniper mallsai are DOA in the hands of the buyer;
when they turn brown, it isn't the buyer's fault, but most buyers
of mallsai (or, worse, recipients of a mallsai as a gift) don't
know enough about growing radishes, much less bonsai, to know
that they did nothing terribly wrong to cause those brown
needles.

The short story is, a year later, I've taken 8 courses from Jim
Doyle at
Natures Way, and my little mallsai looks great in it's new pot
and soil,
sitting next to the 10 other beauties from my classes. Some day
it may even
turn into a little shohin! At the moment, I'm proud that I
managed to keep
the little critter alive.



Yes! And for that, I hereby award you with the IBC logo medal of
merit. Wear it with pride:

( ==] )

;-)


If it wasn't for the kind and gentle words of members of this
group, and my
insatiable appetite to educate myself, I may have moved onto
other less
demanding sports. After all, it takes less effort to go golfing
on the
weekend than to raise a dozen trees.

When someone posts "I just bought a bonsai at Wal-Mart and what
should I do
with it?" don't get snooty and tell them it's not a bonsai and
it probably
won't live anyway. Encourage them to read and learn, and .....
remember how
proud you where when you brought your first tree home !!

Rather than getting upset with *Mart for selling trees that may
not live,
why not ask them if you could put a pile of your associations
leaflets near
their display. Who knows, you might encourage someone to learn.

Many of us have done that; the bonsai leaflets soon get buried
under a pile of Ortho or MiracleGrow promotional leaflets, or are
sprayed by the automatic water system to the point of
unreadability.


Remember .... we all started somewhere.


Yup. But there are better ways to start -- if you have that
choice (as you didn't).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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