Good Day to All,
Ms.Kitsune,

I can see the sense of big leafy tropicals giving a
problem when being seen as a Bonsai.
Many of us down here are not big on the one 3' leaf
being imagined as so many branches and leaves.So
anything along the lines of Fukien teas or Sparrow
plums,is preferred.

BUT could you explain to me why a Serissa does not
make it as a Bonsai in the Traditional world ?
This is one of those confusing facts I seem to have
missed.
Thanks in advance.
Khaimraj
[ West Indies/Caribbean,
the domain of Huracan]

*Mallsai,have been some of my best finds and I am
happy that they are around.Much new variety in the
so-called Indoor Bonsai.
Thank God for them.


-----Original Message-----
From: Kitsune Miko
To:
Date: 27 July 2003 8:54
Subject: [IBC] Hmmm was/ Is this a Bonsai?


I grow pines, elms, maples, crabapple, azaleas. I consider these my true
bonsai. I am purist enough to not consider serissa real bonsai, but I
would never take away the joy of doing from someone with a budding interest
in the sport. I have PERSONAL standards that I expect me to meet. I do
not require validation of my standards by others. I hold no lofty position
that makes me holier than thou. I have not re-written rules, but I see
them trampled on such a regular basis, that I do not tell others what is
right anymore.

Kitsune Miko

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My standards say that serissa is not a true bonsai because I have trouble
growing them outside in California. These are my standards. I don't
expect anyone else to meet them. I don't even expect them to be logical to
anyone else.

This is the point I was making. Who am I to say that someone in the
tropics shouldn't enjoy applying bonsai principals to what grows well for
them? Being blessed with a climate similar to the bonsai growing areas in
Japan, I can afford to be more traditional in my choice of materials.

There are traditionalists that say one must be able to master black pine
and juniper to have real bonsai. So does that mean if you don't live where
black pine and juniper grow well that you should not have the joy of
raising little trees?

What I am saying is that if you personally practice what you consider an
art and it brings you joy, why should you destroy that joy for yourself or
others by applying standards that come from some place else?

I have a mallsai chardonay grape that I rescued from sure death. It
actually had a nice fat trunk with curves and stood in contrast to the
straight skinny sticks near by. I brought it home, soaked off the glued on
rocks, and transplanted it. It is doing well and some year it may be what
I would call a bonsai. Right now I just want to see the single bunch of
grapes mature. I am playing with it to see how to control internode spacing.

Namaste,
Kitsune Miko

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:
Good Day to All,
Ms.Kitsune,

I can see the sense of big leafy tropicals giving a
problem when being seen as a Bonsai.
Many of us down here are not big on the one 3' leaf
being imagined as so many branches and leaves.So
anything along the lines of Fukien teas or Sparrow
plums,is preferred.

BUT could you explain to me why a Serissa does not
make it as a Bonsai in the Traditional world ?
This is one of those confusing facts I seem to have
missed.
Thanks in advance.
Khaimraj
[ West Indies/Caribbean,
the domain of Huracan]

*Mallsai,have been some of my best finds and I am
happy that they are around.Much new variety in the
so-called Indoor Bonsai.
Thank God for them.


-----Original Message-----
From: Kitsune Miko
To:
Date: 27 July 2003 8:54
Subject: [IBC] Hmmm was/ Is this a Bonsai?


I grow pines, elms, maples, crabapple, azaleas. I consider these my true
bonsai. I am purist enough to not consider serissa real bonsai, but I
would never take away the joy of doing from someone with a budding interest
in the sport. I have PERSONAL standards that I expect me to meet. I do
not require validation of my standards by others. I hold no lofty position
that makes me holier than thou. I have not re-written rules, but I see
them trampled on such a regular basis, that I do not tell others what is
right anymore.

Kitsune Miko

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Regarding "traditional bonsai subjects:"

The Kokufuten is about as traditional in bonsai as anything:
it is the annual grand bonsai exhibit held in Tokyo.

In the 75th anniversary edition of the show, held in 1991,
the Grand Prize was awarded to a Ficus retusa!!!
There were also several interesting entries accepted,
including 2 Gardenia jasminoides, 2 Pyracantha angustifolia,
and a Bougainvillea glabra!!!
There were also other Ficus, Camelia japonicas and assorted
non-pines, non-junipers and non-maples. :-)

Cheers.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma

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Then the same :"purists" would also have to reject azalea and many other
traditional bonsai subjects.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://bonsai-bci.com
==============
Iris Cohen wrote:
SNIP Some of the purists don't approve of serissa because in nature, it is not
really a tree, but a small shrub. SNIP
Iris

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Good Day to All,
Ms.Kitsune,

thanks for the reply.Yes,it makes perfect sense.
I thought maybe there was some rule I had missed
on what is a bonsai.

Generally,I just go on the idea that it's a miniaturised
tree in a pot,though I have also seen shrubs,weeds and
shrublets that also carry the illusion very well.

I have no problems with Tropical trees as Bonsai,but
find deadwood on Tropical trees a bit much,as this tends
to feel like Juniper wannabe's.Most trees in the tropics with
deadwood do not have resin to protect their exposed wood.
They can become very hard,but seldom are insect resistant
and look very unnatural with driftwood.

With more time and effort,I believe,selected Tropical trees
will take their place in the Bonsai hierarchy.I can see Fukien
tea,Sparrow plum,Wild coffee,Pemphis,Casuarina[when they
stop trying to make it look like a pine],Tamarind,any of the willow
type Ficus trees,Gmelina,Murraya P,becoming classic specimens.
Yes,even the Serissas,because the list above and this shrub
all have the ability to handle refinement.
There are probably at least 50 more or so to come,as more of
the unknown tropicals are selected for training.

Unfortunately,these are choices to be made by the talented
individuals who can go past the standard shapes,be they amateur
or professional.Sincerity is a must in any profession or hobby.
Unfortunately,because these folk are rare.

I think with regards to Mallsai,the problem lies not in the presentation
of the tree/shrub,but in the reluctance to learn the craft and move
on to a better situation for the Mallsai.
Blame not the plant or supplier,but the owner/grower,for being
so insincere.
Stay Well,
Khaimraj [ who was born in the West and speaks not a word of Hindi
- chuckle.]
[West Indies/Caribbean,
the soggy lands.]


-----Original Message-----
From: Kitsune Miko
To: Khaimraj Seepersad ;

Date: 27 July 2003 11:54
Subject: [IBC] Not a challenge- [IBC] Hmmm was/ Is this a Bonsai?


My standards say that serissa is not a true bonsai because I have trouble
growing them outside in California. These are my standards. I don't
expect anyone else to meet them. I don't even expect them to be logical to
anyone else.

This is the point I was making. Who am I to say that someone in the
tropics shouldn't enjoy applying bonsai principals to what grows well for
them? Being blessed with a climate similar to the bonsai growing areas in
Japan, I can afford to be more traditional in my choice of materials.

There are traditionalists that say one must be able to master black pine
and juniper to have real bonsai. So does that mean if you don't live where
black pine and juniper grow well that you should not have the joy of
raising little trees?

What I am saying is that if you personally practice what you consider an
art and it brings you joy, why should you destroy that joy for yourself or
others by applying standards that come from some place else?

I have a mallsai chardonay grape that I rescued from sure death. It
actually had a nice fat trunk with curves and stood in contrast to the
straight skinny sticks near by. I brought it home, soaked off the glued on
rocks, and transplanted it. It is doing well and some year it may be what
I would call a bonsai. Right now I just want to see the single bunch of
grapes mature. I am playing with it to see how to control internode
spacing.

Namaste,
Kitsune Miko

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Good Morning to All,
Ms Iris,

understood,but as Alan[W],also typed,it's bye bye azalea.

I guess people have to have pet peeves.

When I bought my Texas Ebony,I was told to expect about
60 years of life.At first it bothered me,but as I grew the tree
I found this initial disappointment,fading away.The tree's
beauty took control.
Since that time I have grown many road side weeds that
died after 3 to 5 years,sometimes earlier,but I don't mind.I
enjoyed our time together.

Bonsai for me has become so natural that I tend to spend
more time thinking about keeping them healthy and very little
about what I see on the list.
I am a bit odd.
Khaimraj
[West Indies/Caribbean,
the soggy lands]

-----Original Message-----
From: Iris Cohen
Newsgroups: rec.arts.bonsai
To:
Date: 27 July 2003 14:33
Subject: Hmmm was/ Is this a Bonsai?


BUT could you explain to me why a Serissa does not make it as a Bonsai
in
the Traditional world ?

On the contrary, although the Japanese traditionalists don't use Serissa
much,
you see it used frequently in Chinese penjing. Some of the purists don't
approve of serissa because in nature, it is not really a tree, but a small
shrub. However, I think the real reason is that it is very finicky & not
very
long lived. Serious artists want to put their effort into plants they can
bequeath to their grandchildren. I love Serissas, but they don't like me.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)


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After a listing of a batch of useful tropicals, Khaimraj wrote
perspicaciously:

Unfortunately,these are choices to be made by the talented
individuals who can go past the standard shapes,be they amateur
or professional.Sincerity is a must in any profession or hobby.
Unfortunately,because these folk are rare.


I like the line about going past the standard shapes, Khaimraj.
Tropicals, especially, mostly shy away from the standard
pine-tree-shape bonsai (as I wish makers of so many deciduous
bonsai would also do).

Africa has the flat, spread-out look of veldt trees, the banyan
look is good, and tropicals from the trade-wind belt have a
series of delightful variants of the windswept look.

It ALMOST makes me want to take up tropicals. (But not quite
;-).)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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Jim Lewis wrote:

snip

It ALMOST makes me want to take up tropicals. (But not quite
;-).)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman


Why somebody in Florida wouldn't want to do tropicals is beyond me!

Craig Ccowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Jim Lewis wrote:

snip

It ALMOST makes me want to take up tropicals. (But not quite
;-).)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The
phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman


Why somebody in Florida wouldn't want to do tropicals is beyond
me!


There's Florida and then there's FLORIDA, Craig.

The Florida everyone knows (Disneyland and points south, where
temperatures in the 40s make headlines) isn't the Florida I live
in.

In the winter, here, it gets down to 8 degrees sometimes, Craig.
We can have a few weeks when temperatures never reach 40. Now, I
KNOW that's nothing to you, a veteran of Maine and other New
England winters, but it isn't "tropical" and I just don't have
the inclination to either bring trees in the house (where trees
do NOT belong!) or build and maintain (and protect from falling
limbs and high winds, etc.) a greenhouse.

So it's just a bonsai lifestyle choice, I guess.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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Craig dosen't understand why some one in Florida wouldn't want to do tropicals in reply to Jim Lewis who lives in Tallahassee.
Craig, et al, Florida is a long state and the climate in Thallahassee is very much different that that of the southern penninsula.
Jim would struggle keeping tropicals warm enough for a lot of nights in winter and even some days.
I have been in the northern part of the state myself when the daytime temperature never got above freezing.

Billy on the (inbetween) Florida Space Coast (where at least part of the blame for the first shuttle disaster was placed on launching when the temperature was too low.

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Yes, tropicals often do develop that "canopy" shape. I have a schefflera
forest, for example, which I bought 15 years ago only because it gave me the
feeling of "jungleness". Trunks cross, there is no apex: but it has lots of
aerial roots and a thick mass of overhead foliage. Call it what you will,
bonsai or not, I wouldn't trade it for a forest which follows all the rules.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
To:
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 7:17 AM
Subject: [IBC] Not a challenge- [IBC] Hmmm was/ Is this a Bonsai?


After a listing of a batch of useful tropicals, Khaimraj wrote
perspicaciously:

Unfortunately,these are choices to be made by the talented
individuals who can go past the standard shapes,be they amateur
or professional.Sincerity is a must in any profession or hobby.
Unfortunately,because these folk are rare.


I like the line about going past the standard shapes, Khaimraj.
Tropicals, especially, mostly shy away from the standard
pine-tree-shape bonsai (as I wish makers of so many deciduous
bonsai would also do).

Africa has the flat, spread-out look of veldt trees, the banyan
look is good, and tropicals from the trade-wind belt have a
series of delightful variants of the windswept look.

It ALMOST makes me want to take up tropicals. (But not quite
;-).)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman


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****
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****
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Jim Lewis wrote:

In the winter, here, it gets down to 8 degrees sometimes, Craig.
We can have a few weeks when temperatures never reach 40. Now, I
KNOW that's nothing to you, a veteran of Maine and other New
England winters, but it isn't "tropical" and I just don't have
the inclination to either bring trees in the house (where trees
do NOT belong!) or build and maintain (and protect from falling
limbs and high winds, etc.) a greenhouse.

So it's just a bonsai lifestyle choice, I guess.

Jim, up here in the frozen north a few tropicals in the house can help make those
gray winter days a bit more tolerable. That is at least part of why some of us are
willing to put up with the hassles of lights, etc., not to mention doing the
'bonsai shuffle' in the spring and fall. It's true that unless you go to greater
lengths than most of us can afford, trees simply will not do as well indoors. This
trade-off is, as you say, a bonsai lifestyle choice.

To each his own...

:-)

Jay, Zone 5, Michigan
--
Peace, n. In international affairs, a period of cheating between two periods of
fighting.

Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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Marty Haber wrote:

Yes, tropicals often do develop that "canopy" shape. I have a schefflera
forest, for example, which I bought 15 years ago only because it gave me the
feeling of "jungleness". Trunks cross, there is no apex: but it has lots of
aerial roots and a thick mass of overhead foliage. Call it what you will,
bonsai or not, I wouldn't trade it for a forest which follows all the rules.
Marty

I think I have a vague recollection of that one, Marty. I have a jade plant that
does the same sort of thing for me. I suppose it's in a sort of clump style, but it
has a very African look with a fairly flat top that I find very powerful and
inviting. At the front there is an opening, like a tree house that is inviting.
I like it.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Jim, up here in the frozen north a few tropicals in the house
can help make those
gray winter days a bit more tolerable.

Well, we have fewer "gray" days than you. Many of our winter
days (our drier time of year -- generally) are blue and sunny.
And cold.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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Hello to All,


just a bit to all.Tropical is somewhere around 20 to 33 deg C
[ 70 to 90 deg.F] with heavy rainfall,low/no rainfall,high humidity,
low humidity,dips to high teens deg.C [ on the mountains the
trees tolerate 55 deg.F even light frost.] but there is no real
winter/ice/and so on.

Florida is still Sub-Tropical,no matter how much you dream
of beaches and Mickey Mouse.

I do wish others would keep using the proper terms.In the
Tropics the high mountain areas have their own zones.

Orange trees do not need heat pots down here and orange
skins stay green when ripe.The blood oranges do not do
well,oranges have been cross bred to withstand the tropical
temperature,but it is a cool sub-tropical with warm temperate
cousins.

A true tropical would die in Miami,without protection.
Khaimraj
[ West Indies/Caribbean,
the true tropics,zone of sea modified climate.]


-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Cowing
To:
Date: 28 July 2003 5:36
Subject: [IBC] Not a challenge- [IBC] Hmmm was/ Is this a Bonsai?


Why somebody in Florida wouldn't want to do tropicals is beyond me!

Craig Ccowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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