Luke,

You have quite effectively distorted Reiner's words to the extent that your
arguments in response are irrelevant (and mostly erroneous). For instance,
you make the following observation/question:

"So age only matters when something "good"comes with it?!?"

In the context of bonsai, of course. That you don't understand that is
regrettable. Bonsai is an aesthetic endeavor, so when judging and
quantifying the physical/aesthetic elements of a bonsai, age is irrelevant
except to the extent that the age impacts the appearance and is referenced
in the context of the design. This is probably something with which you
should come to grips in the course of your bonsai study.

You also observe:

"And, BTW Reiner, if you think Kimura is classical then you'd better recheck
your grip on reality."

And I think that you'd better expand your clearly limited acquaintance with
Mr. Kimura's work. Mr. Kimura is a classicist in a documented tradition of
classicists, but with talents that allow him to have thrust innovation into
his work as well. Spend some time getting to know Mr. Kimura's body of work
and you will begin to appreciate how ridiculous was your admonishment to
Reiner.

These and other naive and inaccurate (and petty) observations in your post
beg response and illustrate clearly how "a little information is a dangerous
thing." You should learn to appreciate how honest and contextually accurate
(even opinionated) observations differ from petty, unfounded criticism.
Reiner's observations (in the gallery thread) were constructive and
accurate, though certainly tempered by opinion. Yours are merely petty (in
addition to being largely impertinent).

Your on-list tirade unnecessarily invites an on-list response - you should
probably have expressed your ill-conceived and misguided ire in the context
of the discussion you reference (if at all) and directed toward Reiner
rather than as an "expose'" of perceived poor behavior. Also, it helps to
be accurate in your characterization and your rebuttals.

Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Tulkas"
snip
Strange, to say the least. If it were me, I'd get a public slap on the
hand (by our ever watching moderator) in a second. Reiner, being an old
geezer, is of course untouchable in this respect. Well, folks, that's
about to change...


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Folks, for us not reading the gallery every day, which
gallery posting should I review to have an informed
opinion?

Kitsune Miko
--- Andy Rutledge wrote:
Luke,

You have quite effectively distorted Reiner's words
to the extent that your
arguments in response are irrelevant (and mostly
erroneous). For instance,
you make the following observation/question:

"So age only matters when something "good"comes with
it?!?"

In the context of bonsai, of course. That you don't
understand that is
regrettable. Bonsai is an aesthetic endeavor, so
when judging and
quantifying the physical/aesthetic elements of a
bonsai, age is irrelevant
except to the extent that the age impacts the
appearance and is referenced
in the context of the design. This is probably
something with which you
should come to grips in the course of your bonsai
study.

You also observe:

"And, BTW Reiner, if you think Kimura is classical
then you'd better recheck
your grip on reality."

And I think that you'd better expand your clearly
limited acquaintance with
Mr. Kimura's work. Mr. Kimura is a classicist in a
documented tradition of
classicists, but with talents that allow him to have
thrust innovation into
his work as well. Spend some time getting to know
Mr. Kimura's body of work
and you will begin to appreciate how ridiculous was
your admonishment to
Reiner.

These and other naive and inaccurate (and petty)
observations in your post
beg response and illustrate clearly how "a little
information is a dangerous
thing." You should learn to appreciate how honest
and contextually accurate
(even opinionated) observations differ from petty,
unfounded criticism.
Reiner's observations (in the gallery thread) were
constructive and
accurate, though certainly tempered by opinion.
Yours are merely petty (in
addition to being largely impertinent).

Your on-list tirade unnecessarily invites an on-list
response - you should
probably have expressed your ill-conceived and
misguided ire in the context
of the discussion you reference (if at all) and
directed toward Reiner
rather than as an "expose'" of perceived poor
behavior. Also, it helps to
be accurate in your characterization and your
rebuttals.

Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Tulkas"
snip
Strange, to say the least. If it were me, I'd get
a public slap on the
hand (by our ever watching moderator) in a second.
Reiner, being an old
geezer, is of course untouchable in this respect.
Well, folks, that's
about to change...



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Andy Rutledge wrote:

Luke,

You have quite effectively distorted Reiner's words to the extent that your
arguments in response are irrelevant (and mostly erroneous). For instance,
you make the following observation/question:

snip

Your on-list tirade unnecessarily invites an on-list response - you should
probably have expressed your ill-conceived and misguided ire in the context
of the discussion you reference (if at all) and directed toward Reiner
rather than as an "expose'" of perceived poor behavior. Also, it helps to
be accurate in your characterization and your rebuttals.

Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas


I didn't quite agree with Reiner's assessment of the tree, but I wouldn't have gone
nearly as far as Luke in his characterization of Reiner's work. It was a
generalization at best, and at worst bordered on insulting.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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"Andy Rutledge" wrote in message
news:001001c35ab8$b6dd13d0$0a0110ac@andy...

I wished for private responses. You replied on Usenet and so will I.

You have quite effectively distorted Reiner's words to the extent that
your
arguments in response are irrelevant (and mostly erroneous). For
instance,
you make the following observation/question:

"So age only matters when something "good"comes with it?!?"

In the context of bonsai, of course.

Note that I put good in quotes. Meaning: Reiner's definition of good.
And, as I can guess from your response, your definition, too.

That you don't understand that is
regrettable. Bonsai is an aesthetic endeavor, so when judging and
quantifying the physical/aesthetic elements of a bonsai, age is
irrelevant

Age is irrelevant? Well, E X A C T L Y!!!

except to the extent

....that old farts can't cope with their age anymore? And declare
everything they don't like as contemporary crap? Well, be my guest(s)
but don't expect me to swalow it willingly.

that the age impacts the appearance

You do have some grip on it after all: it's about _appearance_of_age_.
Which doesn't necessarily demand real age.

and is referenced
in the context of the design. This is probably something with which
you
should come to grips in the course of your bonsai study.

You also observe:

"And, BTW Reiner, if you think Kimura is classical then you'd better
recheck
your grip on reality."

And I think that you'd better expand your clearly limited acquaintance
with
Mr. Kimura's work. Mr. Kimura is a classicist in a documented
tradition of
classicists, but with talents that allow him to have thrust innovation

Classicism and and inovation don't mix, Andy. Except in your dictionary
maybe. Which, if that's the case, is more than ready to be revised.

into
his work as well. Spend some time getting to know Mr. Kimura's body
of work
and you will begin to appreciate how ridiculous was your admonishment
to
Reiner.

Ridiculous or not, let's wait for Reiner's respose to the Kimura
question, shall we.

These and other naive and inaccurate (and petty)

Petty. But of course. Standing up to an old geezer (possibly sliding
into dementia) is always characterized as petty. But like Reiner said:
"The age of the atrocity has absolutely no bearing on its merit [...].
It needs to come off." Maybe it's Reiner's time to "come off" ridiculing
other people's work.

observations in your post
beg response and illustrate clearly how "a little information is a
dangerous
thing." You should learn to appreciate how honest and contextually
accurate
(even opinionated) observations differ from petty, unfounded
criticism.

Talk about petty. You do know what a Nachtgeschirr is, Andy? Suggesting
that Walter's trees should be planted in such things is beyond petty.
It's insulting and mad.

Reiner's observations (in the gallery thread) were constructive

Constructive? Nachtgeschirr? Indeed!

and
accurate, though certainly tempered by opinion. Yours are merely
petty

Petty. Check.

(in
addition to being largely impertinent).

Your on-list tirade unnecessarily invites an on-list response - you
should
probably have expressed your ill-conceived and misguided ire in the
context
of the discussion you reference (if at all) and directed toward Reiner
rather than as an "expose'" of perceived poor behavior.

Poor behaviour. Check. Make sure you behave properly and put your
Nachtgeschirr under your bed tonight, Andy. And when you look into it in
the morning, know that Walter's tree has been identified with it's
contents by one Reiner G. on his best behaviour.

Also, it helps to
be accurate in your characterization and your rebuttals.

It does, doesn't it?

"Kitsune Miko" wrote in message
o.com...
Folks, for us not reading the gallery every day, which
gallery posting should I review to have an informed
opinion?

http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ag...netbonsaiclub_
ibcgallery
And then click on "The bear" topic.

"Craig Cowing" wrote in message
...
I didn't quite agree with Reiner's assessment of the tree, but I
wouldn't have gone
nearly as far as Luke in his characterization of Reiner's work.

Reiner's _WORK_?!? I specificaly said it's not his work, but rather his
_attitude_ that I don't like.

It was a generalization at best,

Generalization?

and at worst bordered on insulting.

Insulting? Possibly. Which makes me wonder why didn't you shout
"insulting" when Reiner proposed an "exchange" of a (pretty decent) pot
for a Nachtgeschirr?

I just recall Mr.Kimura answering, on my question about beauty": Who am I to
say what is beautiful!!!!"

For me that said it all.

elize.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Tulkas"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: [IBC] Reiner the Bear


Nobody's willing to bite in so here comes the prodigal... Luke. After
all, even Reiner says that "one has to paint with bold colours".

Reading a thread titled "The bear" on IBC gallery I was quite surprised
by Reiner's responses. At first I would have sworn that someone is
impersonating him, but when there came no denial I thought... hm, it
really must be Reiner and I'll be darned if he doesn't have an attitude
problem. We all have them from time to time, but Reiner being the
"treasurer" and all, with his history of polite, well meaning posts...
Strange, to say the least. If it were me, I'd get a public slap on the
hand (by our ever watching moderator) in a second. Reiner, being an old
geezer, is of course untouchable in this respect. Well, folks, that's
about to change...

We all know (more or less) that he has quite a conservative view of
bonsai. Almost all of his trees (those that he shows anyway) are
(informal) upright, almost all wannabepine shaped, absolutely no aerial
roots, strictly glazed / coloured and shaped pots, etc. But that's his
"taste". Who could blame him for that? After all we know that "de
gustibus...", yes? Well, at least Reiner doesn't.

Anyway... I'd like to point out a few inconsistencies (mildly put) in
his reasoning.

He says: "The age of the atrocity (referring to the deadwood parts of
Walter's tree) has absolutely no bearing on its merit in the design of
the bonsai!" Meaning: "Being an atrocity, it needs to come off."
A few posts latter he says: "Pleasing only to those who know and
appreciate the quality of care that has gone into creating the 'ideal'
bonsai over so many years." (So age only matters when something "good"
comes with it?!?)

I'd add: "the quality of care" over "so many years" has nothing to do
with the outcome - a "finished" bonsai. If it had, then the judges would
need (and want) to know the whole story behind the "artifact". Moreover,
the "quality of care" and "so many years" would bring valuable points to
the final score. But do they? And do they? Directly I mean?
The "quality of care" simply means that the tree has been "made" by some
handicrafter and has nothing to do with the "artistical" merit. Reiner's
narrow view of those merits and his recent outbreak on IBC indicate to
me that he's gone down the typical handicrafter way: telling the artist
that his art is no good. Very possibly because he (the handicrafter)
finds out "after all those years" that he's merely a handicrafter. Being
jealous of someone who, in the process, developed as an artist, too.
Sad. Very sad.

He also says: "I just stripped it of everything that makes it ugly."
(referring to the removal of deadwood parts in his virtual of Walter's
tree). I wonder if he'd also say the same about Kimura's trees. Would
you, Reiner? In so many words as in "The bear"? With the "Nachtgeschirr"
and all? And, BTW Reiner, if you think Kimura is classical then you'd
better recheck your grip on reality.

Identifying contemporary with crap is another of Reiner bright ideas.
Well, Reiner, why don't we ban all the painters (and their paintings)
after Leonardo or (if we're very very liberal) after Rembrandt? I mean,
all the rest is just contemporary (read: crap), right? Hey, why don't we
let the grafittists with their sprays into the museums and let them make
on-site "virtuals" of post-Rembrandt paintings?

About the arm twisting contest. To avoid this verbal agressiveness turn
into a physical one, I suggest that you make it a ****ing contest
instead. We'll all need a good laugh after this thread comes to an end.
(Better yet (so Jim doesn't jump to the ceiling)... before you stop
sending me your responses _privately_.)

Disclaimer (so you won't all have heart-attacks): I'm not saying that
Reiner's trees are crapsai (copyright Reiner G.). I just can't "digest"
his I-set-the-standards-the-rest-is-crap attitude. And before you ask...
no, I haven't created any bonsai masterpieces. But I know a quality
bonsai when I see one. In spite of what some handicrafters want us to
believe, one doesn't have to be a hen to know a rotten egg from a good
one.


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Luke Tulkas wrote:

"Craig Cowing" wrote in message
...
I didn't quite agree with Reiner's assessment of the tree, but I
wouldn't have gone
nearly as far as Luke in his characterization of Reiner's work.

Reiner's _WORK_?!? I specificaly said it's not his work, but rather his
_attitude_ that I don't like.

It was a generalization at best,

Generalization?


About his styling of trees. I've never seen all of his trees, only those he's
posted pictures of. If Reiner is enamored with the informal upright style, so
what? I have trees in a number of different styles, but my favorite is a sort of
spreading "live oak style." After time many people, I'm told, gravitate towards a
few favorite species that they have an affinity for. Big deal.

and at worst bordered on insulting.

Insulting? Possibly. Which makes me wonder why didn't you shout
"insulting" when Reiner proposed an "exchange" of a (pretty decent) pot
for a Nachtgeschirr?

Because I understand the give and take of the gallery. Walter always, it seems,
asks for virtuals and suggestions. Reiner gave him both.

Geez, don't get your shorts in a twist over this. I simply don't understand the
overreaction. Walter Pall can certainly stand some criticism of his trees.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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I went and looked at this thread in the gallery. I
think the shape of a chamber pot might suit this
planting. The curves and rythmn of the shape, but not
the actual chamber pot. I do not think the reference
was to infer that the tree was crap (in the
beginning). The composition lacks balance and I think
that balance might be restored with a more
contemporary pot.

I also wonder if there is another front to the tree
that would show a better line of composition. Right
now the eye flies off in three directions. I don't do
virtual changes, but I might like to see the left side
turned back about 1/4 to 1/3 and have the jin tipped
down a bit using the foliage as a frame for the jin.

Kitsune Miko

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I just recall Mr.Kimura answering, on my question about beauty": Who am
I to say what is beautiful!!!!"

For me that said it all.

elize.

THANK YOU ELIZE !!!!!

Before this degenerates into another knock-down, drag-out fight, with
name-calling and put-downs, can we just regard that thread on the
gallery as what it is - a difference of opinion ??? AND between Reiner
and Walter ????

Liz

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"Craig Cowing" wrote in message
...
I didn't quite agree with Reiner's assessment of the tree, but I
wouldn't have gone
nearly as far as Luke in his characterization of Reiner's work.

Reiner's _WORK_?!? I specificaly said it's not his work, but rather
his
_attitude_ that I don't like.

It was a generalization at best,

Generalization?


About his styling of trees. I've never seen all of his trees,

Neither did I.

only those he's
posted pictures of.

Right. That's why I said "those that he shows ".

If Reiner is enamored with the informal upright style, so
what?
I have trees in a number of different styles, but my favorite is a
sort of
spreading "live oak style." After time many people, I'm told,
gravitate towards a
few favorite species that they have an affinity for. Big deal.

and at worst bordered on insulting.

Insulting? Possibly. Which makes me wonder why didn't you shout
"insulting" when Reiner proposed an "exchange" of a (pretty decent)
pot
for a Nachtgeschirr?

Because I understand the give and take of the gallery.

You do? I don't think so. Some people in IBC are "allowed" more than
other people.

Walter always, it seems,
asks for virtuals and suggestions. Reiner gave him both.

It's not his virtuals, man!

Geez, don't get your shorts in a twist over this.

Don't worry about my shorts. ;-)

I simply don't understand the
overreaction.

If there's some overreaction, then it has to be the Nachtgeschirr.

Walter Pall can certainly stand some criticism of his trees.

But of course. I had no intention of "defending" _him_. I just responded
to Reiner's postings. Had they been mine I'd surely "collect" Jim's
threats like, as a matter of fact, I did on account of my initial
posting. His buddy, one Reiner G., is of course excused.

Knowing Walter he would love the firm discussion..
I have not seen the tree but I would not be surprised that if the shape of a
"Nachtgeschirr"would fit the lines and shape of the tree he will find a
potter and the next thing you will see is.................
I think that is the idea about discussion, you come to most surprising
ideas of which you would never think of just by yourself .
elize

Insulting? Possibly. Which makes me wonder why didn't you shout
"insulting" when Reiner proposed an "exchange" of a (pretty decent)
pot
for a Nachtgeschirr?

Because I understand the give and take of the gallery.

You do? I don't think so. Some people in IBC are "allowed" more than
other people.

Walter always, it seems,
asks for virtuals and suggestions. Reiner gave him both.

It's not his virtuals, man!

Geez, don't get your shorts in a twist over this.

Don't worry about my shorts. ;-)

I simply don't understand the
overreaction.

If there's some overreaction, then it has to be the Nachtgeschirr.

Walter Pall can certainly stand some criticism of his trees.

But of course. I had no intention of "defending" _him_. I just responded
to Reiner's postings. Had they been mine I'd surely "collect" Jim's
threats like, as a matter of fact, I did on account of my initial
posting. His buddy, one Reiner G., is of course excused.


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