At 07:44 PM 2/3/04 -0500, Kevin wrote:
I have a Nishiki Pine grown from a cutting. I have had it a couple of years
in a large pot and I plan in placing it in an even larger pot this spring.
I would like to do some root arrangment as well. I have read that pine
cuttings can be kind of weak. It's growth has been very good over the last
couple of years. I was wondering if anyone knows if these cutting pines are
more sensitive to root work than a regular pine? Which can be pretty
sensitive anyway.

Kevin

I have been growing Nishiki Matsu, Pinus thunbergii cvs., cuttings for some
time now. I believe my oldest cuttings date back to '96. Cuttings are a
little slower than grafts to take off, but this is understandable
considering that they have to develop a whole new root system before any
really vigorous growth can occur. This takes 2 to 3 years, so they are
usually about that far behind grafts. Once they are established in one
gallon cans at the end of this period, I find that they are
indistinguishable in growth from grafts or seedlings at a similar stage.
They do not require any special care, and you should begin root correction
before they become more advanced.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 07:44 PM 2/3/04 -0500, Kevin wrote:
I have a Nishiki Pine grown from a cutting. I have had it a couple of years
in a large pot and I plan in placing it in an even larger pot this spring.
I would like to do some root arrangment as well. I have read that pine
cuttings can be kind of weak. It's growth has been very good over the last
couple of years. I was wondering if anyone knows if these cutting pines are
more sensitive to root work than a regular pine? Which can be pretty
sensitive anyway.

Kevin

I have been growing Nishiki Matsu, Pinus thunbergii cvs., cuttings for some
time now. I believe my oldest cuttings date back to '96. Cuttings are a
little slower than grafts to take off, but this is understandable
considering that they have to develop a whole new root system before any
really vigorous growth can occur. This takes 2 to 3 years, so they are
usually about that far behind grafts. Once they are established in one
gallon cans at the end of this period, I find that they are
indistinguishable in growth from grafts or seedlings at a similar stage.
They do not require any special care, and you should begin root correction
before they become more advanced.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 07:44 PM 2/3/04 -0500, Kevin wrote:
I have a Nishiki Pine grown from a cutting. I have had it a couple of years
in a large pot and I plan in placing it in an even larger pot this spring.
I would like to do some root arrangment as well. I have read that pine
cuttings can be kind of weak. It's growth has been very good over the last
couple of years. I was wondering if anyone knows if these cutting pines are
more sensitive to root work than a regular pine? Which can be pretty
sensitive anyway.

Kevin

I have been growing Nishiki Matsu, Pinus thunbergii cvs., cuttings for some
time now. I believe my oldest cuttings date back to '96. Cuttings are a
little slower than grafts to take off, but this is understandable
considering that they have to develop a whole new root system before any
really vigorous growth can occur. This takes 2 to 3 years, so they are
usually about that far behind grafts. Once they are established in one
gallon cans at the end of this period, I find that they are
indistinguishable in growth from grafts or seedlings at a similar stage.
They do not require any special care, and you should begin root correction
before they become more advanced.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I've been playing with nishiki grafts for a number of years, but have found
them far less hardy than the species. Haven't given up yet - working on one
right now.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evergreen Gardenworks"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 8:03 AM
Subject: [IBC] Black Pine cutting


At 07:44 PM 2/3/04 -0500, Kevin wrote:
I have a Nishiki Pine grown from a cutting. I have had it a couple of
years
in a large pot and I plan in placing it in an even larger pot this
spring.
I would like to do some root arrangment as well. I have read that pine
cuttings can be kind of weak. It's growth has been very good over the
last
couple of years. I was wondering if anyone knows if these cutting pines
are
more sensitive to root work than a regular pine? Which can be pretty
sensitive anyway.

Kevin

I have been growing Nishiki Matsu, Pinus thunbergii cvs., cuttings for
some
time now. I believe my oldest cuttings date back to '96. Cuttings are a
little slower than grafts to take off, but this is understandable
considering that they have to develop a whole new root system before any
really vigorous growth can occur. This takes 2 to 3 years, so they are
usually about that far behind grafts. Once they are established in one
gallon cans at the end of this period, I find that they are
indistinguishable in growth from grafts or seedlings at a similar stage.
They do not require any special care, and you should begin root correction
before they become more advanced.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I've been playing with nishiki grafts for a number of years, but have found
them far less hardy than the species. Haven't given up yet - working on one
right now.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evergreen Gardenworks"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 8:03 AM
Subject: [IBC] Black Pine cutting


At 07:44 PM 2/3/04 -0500, Kevin wrote:
I have a Nishiki Pine grown from a cutting. I have had it a couple of
years
in a large pot and I plan in placing it in an even larger pot this
spring.
I would like to do some root arrangment as well. I have read that pine
cuttings can be kind of weak. It's growth has been very good over the
last
couple of years. I was wondering if anyone knows if these cutting pines
are
more sensitive to root work than a regular pine? Which can be pretty
sensitive anyway.

Kevin

I have been growing Nishiki Matsu, Pinus thunbergii cvs., cuttings for
some
time now. I believe my oldest cuttings date back to '96. Cuttings are a
little slower than grafts to take off, but this is understandable
considering that they have to develop a whole new root system before any
really vigorous growth can occur. This takes 2 to 3 years, so they are
usually about that far behind grafts. Once they are established in one
gallon cans at the end of this period, I find that they are
indistinguishable in growth from grafts or seedlings at a similar stage.
They do not require any special care, and you should begin root correction
before they become more advanced.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 07:21 PM 2/5/04 -0500, Jim Dolce wrote:
Hello Brent,

I have always heard that it was pretty much impossible to take cuttings
of pines, except for the Zuisho variety of Japanese White Pine. But reading
your message certainly seems to suggest this may just be another bonsai
myth.

I would like to ask you if you have a special technique for taking pine
cuttings, if there are specific varieties that work for you or whether you
simply follow the same approach as you have documented in the article on
your web page.

Jim

Yes, it is possible to grow pines from cuttings, but in general it is more
difficult than other species. Timing is important, as well as maintenance
of a suitable environment. Rooting times are also generally longer than
other species. I suppose it could be done without automatic mist and bottom
heat, but it would be even more difficult. There is fine balance in keeping
the environment humid enough to keep the cuttings alive and avoiding a
saturated medium that will rot the stems.

Personally, I have rooted Pinus mugo 'Valley Cushion', Pinus thunbergii
cultivars, and Pinus parviflora 'Zuisho'. All three were rooted from wood
grown late the previous season and started in mid spring. The timing
depends more the condition of the wood rather than the calendar and will
even vary from year to year. Early April works well for me.

Pinus mugo and P. thunbergii seem to do better with a high IBA hormone
(3%), and from what I have seen so far for 'Zuisho' (only one
attempt), hormone strength doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

Cuttings taken in April are usually rooted by the end of August. That's an
awfully long time to keep a pine cutting alive without either drying it out
or having it rot from too much mist. If they aren't rooted by the end of
August, they seem to be doomed. Very few have overwintered and rooted out
the following spring. I now just throw them out if they haven't rooted and
start a new crop the following spring.

I don't see much advantage to rooting P. parviflora since the species
itself is notoriously prone to fungal root problems, at least in this
country. I think the better route is to graft them to P. thunbergii, which
is an excellent understock. If grafted very low, there are no unsightly
union problems. If grafted high (to the first branch) you get a fat trunk
and nice scaly bark. This is often done in Japan. The trunk usually is
trained to take a turn at the first branch (at the graft union) to help
make the bark transition less jarring. Bill Valavanis has made some
interesting comments on this practice. In Japan it seems, this practice of
grafting high on P.t. is not taken seriously and they are never seen in
shows, but grown mainly for export, or end up as exports.

Rooting P. thunbergii cultivars, especially the cork bark types is very
exciting. Grafting them is problematic. Unless they are grafted absolutely
just above the existing understock roots, the corky bark will appear to
'float' above the smoother bark of the understock. Cutting grown plants
avoid this problem, with the added benefit of having corky surface roots as
well. Rooted cuttings of P. thunbergii are also very vigorous.

As with any species, there are differences in various cultivars in their
ability to root. I haven't tried a great many P. thunbergii cultivars, but
the Nishiki types seem fairly easy. This may have something to do with the
corky bark. I have found this to be true with other species (Cork barked
Acer palmatum comes to mind). P.t. 'Akame' seems exceptionally easy to
root, but is less tolerant of water, so it is difficult to keep them alive
while they are rooting out. Unfortunately 'Brocade' ('Hayabusa') has been
very difficult, and I have yet to root a single cutting.

I haven't done any pine cuttings for several years now. Things were put on
hold while the nursery move was taking place, but I hope to have a new
greenhouse set up this spring so that I can start again. I would like to
expand the Nishiki types grown from cuttings in particular, but it would be
nice to have the dwarf types on their own roots too, such as 'Yatsubusa',
and 'Koto Buki'. Grafts work so well for most 'regular' size P. thunbergii
cvs. that growing them from cuttings doesn't make much sense unless I can
get really good at it!


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

HI Brent
very interesting explanations I could keep my Penta alive just for 7
months in a north position but not more , a side question
I wish to make come cuttings from my Prunus mume to make some gifts to
friends, as it has grown some long twigs and need to be trimmed soon
how could I proceed? I have no green house but could make a small one
for them
Thanks for your feed back
Theo

Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:

At 07:21 PM 2/5/04 -0500, Jim Dolce wrote:

Hello Brent,

I have always heard that it was pretty much impossible to take
cuttings
of pines, except for the Zuisho variety of Japanese White Pine. But
reading
your message certainly seems to suggest this may just be another bonsai
myth.

I would like to ask you if you have a special technique for taking pine
cuttings, if there are specific varieties that work for you or whether
you
simply follow the same approach as you have documented in the article on
your web page.


Jim

Yes, it is possible to grow pines from cuttings, but in general it is more
difficult than other species. Timing is important, as well as maintenance
of a suitable environment. Rooting times are also generally longer than
other species. I suppose it could be done without automatic mist and bottom
heat, but it would be even more difficult. There is fine balance in keeping
the environment humid enough to keep the cuttings alive and avoiding a
saturated medium that will rot the stems.

Personally, I have rooted Pinus mugo 'Valley Cushion', Pinus thunbergii
cultivars, and Pinus parviflora 'Zuisho'. All three were rooted from wood
grown late the previous season and started in mid spring. The timing
depends more the condition of the wood rather than the calendar and will
even vary from year to year. Early April works well for me.

Pinus mugo and P. thunbergii seem to do better with a high IBA hormone
(3%), and from what I have seen so far for 'Zuisho' (only one
attempt), hormone strength doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

Cuttings taken in April are usually rooted by the end of August. That's an
awfully long time to keep a pine cutting alive without either drying it out
or having it rot from too much mist. If they aren't rooted by the end of
August, they seem to be doomed. Very few have overwintered and rooted out
the following spring. I now just throw them out if they haven't rooted and
start a new crop the following spring.

I don't see much advantage to rooting P. parviflora since the species
itself is notoriously prone to fungal root problems, at least in this
country. I think the better route is to graft them to P. thunbergii, which
is an excellent understock. If grafted very low, there are no unsightly
union problems. If grafted high (to the first branch) you get a fat trunk
and nice scaly bark. This is often done in Japan. The trunk usually is
trained to take a turn at the first branch (at the graft union) to help
make the bark transition less jarring. Bill Valavanis has made some
interesting comments on this practice. In Japan it seems, this practice of
grafting high on P.t. is not taken seriously and they are never seen in
shows, but grown mainly for export, or end up as exports.

Rooting P. thunbergii cultivars, especially the cork bark types is very
exciting. Grafting them is problematic. Unless they are grafted absolutely
just above the existing understock roots, the corky bark will appear to
'float' above the smoother bark of the understock. Cutting grown plants
avoid this problem, with the added benefit of having corky surface roots as
well. Rooted cuttings of P. thunbergii are also very vigorous.

As with any species, there are differences in various cultivars in their
ability to root. I haven't tried a great many P. thunbergii cultivars, but
the Nishiki types seem fairly easy. This may have something to do with the
corky bark. I have found this to be true with other species (Cork barked
Acer palmatum comes to mind). P.t. 'Akame' seems exceptionally easy to
root, but is less tolerant of water, so it is difficult to keep them alive
while they are rooting out. Unfortunately 'Brocade' ('Hayabusa') has been
very difficult, and I have yet to root a single cutting.

I haven't done any pine cuttings for several years now. Things were put on
hold while the nursery move was taking place, but I hope to have a new
greenhouse set up this spring so that I can start again. I would like to
expand the Nishiki types grown from cuttings in particular, but it would be
nice to have the dwarf types on their own roots too, such as 'Yatsubusa',
and 'Koto Buki'. Grafts work so well for most 'regular' size P. thunbergii
cvs. that growing them from cuttings doesn't make much sense unless I can
get really good at it!


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************

++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************


-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--
EU Zone 7 GE (CH)
S.O.S.Bonsai online @ : or ICQ
25 666 169 4
my bonsais:http://groups.msn.com/BonsaiItalia/ibonsaiditheo.msnw
Membro di : Internet Bonsai Society. I.B.S USA; F.F.B (BE)E.E.B.F (
FR);F.R.J.B(CH)

Theo,

I use this simple method for a small amount of cuttings. I use a clay pot, seed starter mix (which is a mixture of peat and pumice) and a jar about the same diameter of the pot ai have chosen. After making the cutting, I dip the end in a rooting hormone
and push the cuttign into the seed starting medium. I tthouroughly wet the seed startr mix in the pot. Then I place the jar over the cuttings, creating a mini green house. Visualize the top of the jar closed in the illustration below. Keep soil medium
moist, but check for mold.
_
(_)
\_/

Kitsune Miko


Theo wrote:
HI Brent
very interesting explanations I could keep my Penta alive just for 7
months in a north position but not more , a side question
I wish to make come cuttings from my Prunus mume to make some gifts to
friends, as it has grown some long twigs and need to be trimmed soon
how could I proceed? I have no green house but could make a small one
for them
Thanks for your feed back
Theo


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 08:26 AM 2/7/04 +0100, Theo wrote:
HI Brent
very interesting explanations I could keep my Penta alive just for 7
months in a north position but not more , a side question
I wish to make come cuttings from my Prunus mume to make some gifts to
friends, as it has grown some long twigs and need to be trimmed soon
how could I proceed? I have no green house but could make a small one
for them

Theo

Kitsune's idea of a mini greenhouse is a good one, you should try that.
It's a cheap and easy way to start cuttings.

Prunus mume _should_ be easy to grow from cuttings, but in my experience it
is anything but. Maybe it's just me, but I struggle with the little
buggers. You should be able to root them as hardwoods taking cuttings now
(although it is a little late). Use typical hardwood techniques. I don't do
hardwoods, so I'm not much help there. I use semi hardwood cuttings in
summer. This is new growth that has just hardened off. For me the period is
June and July. Take three or four node cuttings, three to six inches long.
Use a mild hormone, IBA 0.3 to 0.6% (Hormex 3 or 6). It takes several
months for them to root, and sometimes they will just callus over and root
the following spring. Oddly enough, I have the best success with the tough
little spur growth rather than with the long softer shoots.

For much technical information on cutting procedure see the article at my
website:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/cuttings.htm


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

HI Brent

Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:

At 08:26 AM 2/7/04 +0100, Theo wrote:

HI Brent
snip
how could I proceed? I have no green house but could make a small one
for them
Theo
Kitsune's idea of a mini greenhouse is a good one, you should try that.
It's a cheap and easy way to start cuttings.

yes Kitsune's idea is excellent but merging with your suggestion ,it
gave me an idea to something else ... .. as I am already trying it with
a trident maple since last september
As prunus after flowering are not very interesting, I thought to use
the funnel part of plastic bottle , small colas' ones , for air layering.
Will keep it in place with a pierced cork to allow water leaking
and/or fasten to closer branches to keep it stable, the twig will be
strangled just under the screw neck with wire, the part from where
roots should appear will be slightly cut given rooting hormons and
sorrounded with sfagnum and coarse akadama and and will see
throught the plastic if roots will come out
will just have to cut it off as soon as I will see roots has grown

will take very little risk and will keep an eye for watering all the
time
what do you think?
Thanks for your link
best regards
Theo

Prunus mume _should_ be easy to grow from cuttings, but in my experience it
is anything but. Maybe it's just me, but I struggle with the little
buggers. You should be able to root them as hardwoods taking cuttings now
(although it is a little late). Use typical hardwood techniques. I don't do
hardwoods, so I'm not much help there. I use semi hardwood cuttings in
summer. This is new growth that has just hardened off. For me the period is
June and July. Take three or four node cuttings, three to six inches long.
Use a mild hormone, IBA 0.3 to 0.6% (Hormex 3 or 6). It takes several
months for them to root, and sometimes they will just callus over and root
the following spring. Oddly enough, I have the best success with the tough
little spur growth rather than with the long softer shoots.

For much technical information on cutting procedure see the article at my
website:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/cuttings.htm

--
EU Zone 7 GE (CH)
S.O.S.Bonsai online @ : or ICQ
25 666 169 4
my bonsais:http://groups.msn.com/BonsaiItalia/ibonsaiditheo.msnw
Membro di : Internet Bonsai Society. I.B.S USA; F.F.B (BE)E.E.B.F (
FR);F.R.J.B(CH)

HI Brent

Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:

At 08:26 AM 2/7/04 +0100, Theo wrote:

HI Brent
snip
how could I proceed? I have no green house but could make a small one
for them
Theo
Kitsune's idea of a mini greenhouse is a good one, you should try that.
It's a cheap and easy way to start cuttings.

yes Kitsune's idea is excellent but merging with your suggestion ,it
gave me an idea to something else ... .. as I am already trying it with
a trident maple since last september
As prunus after flowering are not very interesting, I thought to use
the funnel part of plastic bottle , small colas' ones , for air layering.
Will keep it in place with a pierced cork to allow water leaking
and/or fasten to closer branches to keep it stable, the twig will be
strangled just under the screw neck with wire, the part from where
roots should appear will be slightly cut given rooting hormons and
sorrounded with sfagnum and coarse akadama and and will see
throught the plastic if roots will come out
will just have to cut it off as soon as I will see roots has grown

will take very little risk and will keep an eye for watering all the
time
what do you think?
Thanks for your link
best regards
Theo

Prunus mume _should_ be easy to grow from cuttings, but in my experience it
is anything but. Maybe it's just me, but I struggle with the little
buggers. You should be able to root them as hardwoods taking cuttings now
(although it is a little late). Use typical hardwood techniques. I don't do
hardwoods, so I'm not much help there. I use semi hardwood cuttings in
summer. This is new growth that has just hardened off. For me the period is
June and July. Take three or four node cuttings, three to six inches long.
Use a mild hormone, IBA 0.3 to 0.6% (Hormex 3 or 6). It takes several
months for them to root, and sometimes they will just callus over and root
the following spring. Oddly enough, I have the best success with the tough
little spur growth rather than with the long softer shoots.

For much technical information on cutting procedure see the article at my
website:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/cuttings.htm

--
EU Zone 7 GE (CH)
S.O.S.Bonsai online @ : or ICQ
25 666 169 4
my bonsais:http://groups.msn.com/BonsaiItalia/ibonsaiditheo.msnw
Membro di : Internet Bonsai Society. I.B.S USA; F.F.B (BE)E.E.B.F (
FR);F.R.J.B(CH)