I've tried the all inorganic route myself and am not a convert. I was hoping
to see phenomenal growth and health as is purported to occur with such mixes as
straight akadama but that did not occur. I was not dissatisfied- everything
grew "fine" but the search for my own personal Holy Grail continues...

I wanted more water retention and less salt retention so of late I've returned
to a 20-30% component of organic and amendments (i.e., shagnum,
bonemeal, "zeolite", "volcanic sand", etc., the rest being possibly haydite,
brickchips and/or perlite.

The other driving force was, as I am a student of Mr. Lewis, was to approach as
nearly as possible the "school mix" as best I could using materials I have
available.

I echo all the sentiments here. Currently I tend to use "hardwood mulch" as
one gets a better yield and I'm told it maintains it's integrity a bit longer.

I'll still use the Home Despot mulch for collected trees. I'm less worried
about 1/2 shredded 6" chunks of 2x4 there... One of the side bar risks of pine
products are tannins. The overall problem being altered pH and growth
suppressing chemicals; the same would be true of oak and other nut tree
products such as pecan...

The "ultimate" organic thus far seems to be fir bark or "orchid mix" which is
fast fading as orchid growers are switching to coconut hull and other such
materials that just reduce to a slimy mess in a season here...

What is the best choice for you really depends on several factors all going
back to your case particulars, namely, watering/feed schedule, climate, desired
repotting frequency, etc., etc.,

Jim Stone
Galveston TX

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Jim Stone wrote:

I've tried the all inorganic route myself and am not a convert. I was hoping
to see phenomenal growth and health as is purported to occur with such mixes as
straight akadama but that did not occur. I was not dissatisfied- everything
grew "fine" but the search for my own personal Holy Grail continues...

snip

What is the best choice for you really depends on several factors all going
back to your case particulars, namely, watering/feed schedule, climate, desired
repotting frequency, etc., etc.,

Jim Stone
Galveston TX

This sums it up nicely, Jim. I have never gone inorganic and don't plan to. For
me, the inorganic route wouldn't be good. Even though I am at home during the day
much more than many people, I don't feel I can expose my trees to that level of
dryness. Sometimes I have to skip a day of watering because I'm away, and with
inorganic soil that would not be possible.

The only plants I keep in totally inorganic soils are succulents and cacti.
Everything else has organic material.

Ok, now the question is going to come up about water retention in bark, which as I
understand is not that great. This is why I am finding that compost is a good
component. It actually retains water.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Soil discussions are always interesting for me. I did reply with option
4 earlier (all inorganic). What I neglected to mention is that I also
have an automated irrigation system. This means I never worry about
drying out and the fast draining soil allows me to minimize my worries
about over-watering.

With that said I should say that this is a soil experiment for me. So
far (about 6 months or so) it has worked very well. I use a combination
of lava rock and Turface MVP. I feed with Bio-gold and a semi-weekly
dose of either Dynagrow or Fish Emulsion. I'll decide later if it is a
mix I will stick with or go back to grinding and sifting bark only to
have it clog my soil anyway. Let's discuss this more.

wmcorcor


== This sums it up nicely, Jim. I have never gone inorganic and don't
plan
== to.

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Bil Corcoran says Let's discuss this more.
O.K., here are my 2c.
I have fussed about soil for more than 40 years, looking back over my
shoulder at guys like Hal Mahoney, who uses 50% peat and 50% builder's sand,
and Horst Krekeller, who uses "anything I can get my hands on".
Both of these gents are first class bonsai men, and both have first class
trees. What does that tell me? It says that
soil composition is far less important than how the individual grower deals
with watering, sunlight and fertilizer. We have to know the water retention
rate of our mix, the leaching effect, sun vs. shade effect, and deep pot
vs. shallow pot effect. We also have to know how nutrients break down in
our particular mix.
Want know what I use? This year it's Granni-grit ( crushed granite),
crushed feather rock, Scultz's clay soil conditioner, crushed charcoal, and
ground cedar chips
(Cedarcide). As time goes by, I use less and less organic material and more
inorganic. Why? Because I have more time now to water whenever things look
too dry. Very unscientific, but quite practical.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Corcoran. Bil"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 11:42 AM
Subject: [IBC] organic component


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Marty:

Excellent point. Maybe we do over analyze and maybe the rest of the
equation is every bit as important. I couldn't agree more. The mix I
did last year had Grani-grit but Jerry Stowell recommended against it
because of the alkaline content. I substituted lava rock (which I now
hear can have Ph issues also depending on the source). I've never seen
feather rock so I'd be curious about that...and Shultz's csc is almost
the same as Turface MVP.

I think the practicality of what you can get locally and affordably, and
the overall care of your plants may be most important than the actual
mix for most trees.

Thanks,
wmcorcor

== Want know what I use? This year it's Granni-grit ( crushed
granite),
== crushed feather rock, Scultz's clay soil conditioner, crushed
charcoal,
== and
== ground cedar chips
== (Cedarcide). As time goes by, I use less and less organic material
and
== more
== inorganic. Why? Because I have more time now to water whenever
things
== look
== too dry. Very unscientific, but quite practical.
== Marty

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Marty:

Excellent point. Maybe we do over analyze and maybe the rest of
the
equation is every bit as important.
===========

And don't forget particle size. Smaller particles hold more
water, so all-inorganic with 1/8-inch particles may not get as
dry as all inorganic with 1/4-inch particles.

Personally, I've never found a Turface-like product with 1/4-inch
particles despite all the blather about soil ranging from 1/4 to
1/8 size -- and I don't think I would use it if I did.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

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Yeah (just mentioned this in another thread) Turface mvp is pretty small...
Turface pro is even smaller. Haven't tried other turface-like products.

/jhd

"Jim Lewis" wrote in message
news:010501c45f9c$b318cb60$c7102cc7@pavilion...
Marty:

Excellent point. Maybe we do over analyze and maybe the rest of
the
equation is every bit as important.
===========

And don't forget particle size. Smaller particles hold more
water, so all-inorganic with 1/8-inch particles may not get as
dry as all inorganic with 1/4-inch particles.

Personally, I've never found a Turface-like product with 1/4-inch
particles despite all the blather about soil ranging from 1/4 to
1/8 size -- and I don't think I would use it if I did.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.


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Quoting Craig Cowing :

....I don't feel I can expose my trees to that level of dryness.

HA! You're talking to a native NYer now living in TX! There's dry and hot
then there's DRY and HOT. I experience NY August weather from May to October.
It can be humid but we miss most of the rain that Houston gets. I think one
additional issue is the strength of the sun. It definitely eliminates any
added benefits I may get from the humidity. Trees dry out pretty quick and
must be under shade cloth.

Sometimes I have to skip a day of watering because I'm away, and
with
inorganic soil that would not be possible.

Must be nice! I have an auto system and an ace 9 year old. Moisture levels
can be controlled with particle sizes and proportions; you could also vary the
ingredient- i.e. pumice. You may want to play around with a few seedlings just
for edification.

I guess moisture retention is an issue if it dries out- kind of like peat but
not as difficult? I also use organic fertilizers through summer that add to
the organic load.

BTW: Congrads. Glad to hear the Lord has blessed you.

Jim Stone

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wrote:

Quoting Craig Cowing :

...I don't feel I can expose my trees to that level of dryness.

HA! You're talking to a native NYer now living in TX! There's dry and hot
then there's DRY and HOT. I experience NY August weather from May to October.
It can be humid but we miss most of the rain that Houston gets. I think one
additional issue is the strength of the sun. It definitely eliminates any
added benefits I may get from the humidity. Trees dry out pretty quick and
must be under shade cloth.


This is why I live in the Northeast (have all of my life) and not in Texas.

Sometimes I have to skip a day of watering because I'm away, and
with
inorganic soil that would not be possible.

Must be nice! I have an auto system and an ace 9 year old.

Well, my 17 year old covers for me when I'm gone often (usually down in Maryland
helping Anita water her trees!) but sometimes he's up visiting his mother.

Moisture levels
can be controlled with particle sizes and proportions; you could also vary the
ingredient- i.e. pumice. You may want to play around with a few seedlings just
for edification.

I'll pass.

I also use organic fertilizers through summer that add to
the organic load.

Now here's a switch. My llama manure pile has turned to a pile of dirt with weeds
growing out of it, so I'm gradually shoveling it in to the compost pile. I'm not
in the financial position to buy those boutique organic fertilizers, so I'm just
using chemical fertilizers--Miracle Gro (15-30-15) and Peters (20-20-20)
alternately. I see no difference in terms of growth over last year. Doesn't mean
I don't feel the organic helps, but I don't feel it is absolutely vital for
growth, at least in my specific situation. With organic material in the soil
already it doesn't seem to be as vital. When Anita has her horse up here I'll try
making manure tea from horse poop. (whinney)


BTW: Congrads. Glad to hear the Lord has blessed you.

Jim Stone

Thanks. In more ways than I can recount, and she's at the top of the list right
now.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Quoting Craig Cowing :

I also use organic fertilizers through summer that add to
the organic load.

I too started using the "teas" - I still do- keep it fermenting all year round-
grain hulls from homebrewing, and fertilizer ingredients go in and "brew".

I don't go in for the pellets either. We have a bulk fertilizer place where I
can get enough cottonseed, blood and bone meal and a quart of fish emulsion to
last a few years for about $60. I mix them together adding tea to the liquid
to add the digestive microbes... ot just the right consistency then scoop it on
with an old ice cream scoop. I use generic "Miracle Grow" for a boost and
have been known to buy the straight chemicals and sprinkle them on in teaspoon
amounts. My black pines love organics.

I think the act of feeding is more important than exactly what you use.

Jim Stone
Galveston, TX

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Xref: kermit rec.arts.bonsai:75853

A little side note to the organic/inorganic thread; a few years ago at the
Pacific Rim collection they noticed one of the trees going down hill shortly
after being repotted. They couldn't figure out what the problem was for
some time; finally after having the bark mulch that they were using analyzed
they discovered that it was laden with salt. It had apparently come from
logs that were floated in seawater on the way to the mill. They repotted
the tree using 100% inorganic soil, and it subsequently recovered. Dave
DeGroot has since eliminated the bark component from their soil mix and uses
straight inorganic media for everything in the collection, not wanting to
risk using any more contaminated bark.

I don't remember the exact mix of soil components they use, but looking at
it, it is mostly red lava rock in the 1/8" size range.

Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

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Xref: kermit rec.arts.bonsai:75859

In a message dated 7/1/2004 9:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

I don't remember the exact mix of soil components they use, but looking at
it, it is mostly red lava rock in the 1/8" size range.

But, the trees in the Pacific Rim collection are large trees. Mostly
over three feet.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention July 1 - 4, 2005 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Workshops with Jerry Meislik of Whitefish, Montana and Chase Rosade of New
Hope, PA.

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wrote:

Quoting Craig Cowing :

I also use organic fertilizers through summer that add to
the organic load.

I too started using the "teas" - I still do- keep it fermenting all year round-
grain hulls from homebrewing, and fertilizer ingredients go in and "brew".

C'mon up to the wedding and we'll hoist a mug!

snip

I think the act of feeding is more important than exactly what you use.

Jim Stone
Galveston, TX

Indeed. And of course, the need for fertilizer will vary somewhat according to
the species.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Hi Billy,

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, many of the trees in the Pacific Rim
collection are in the three foot range. They also have a number of trees in
the 18 inch to two foot size range as well. The soil mix seems to be the
same for all.

Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Billy M. Rhodes"
But, the trees in the Pacific Rim collection are large trees.
Mostly
over three feet.


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In a message dated 7/2/2004 4:39:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

Hi Billy,

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, many of the trees in the Pacific Rim
collection are in the three foot range. They also have a number of trees in
the 18 inch to two foot size range as well. The soil mix seems to be the
same for all.


I was trying to say that the larger particles of inorganic materials
you mentioned as making up the potting media for the Pacific Rim Collection
would be appropriate for larger trees but might not hold enough moisture for
smaller trees.
Also the climate of Pacific northwest is unique in this county and the
choice of potting media mixtures will depend upon many factors.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention July 1 - 4, 2005 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Workshops with Jerry Meislik of Whitefish, Montana and Chase Rosade of New
Hope, PA.

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