Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
I've tried the all inorganic route myself and am not a convert. I was hoping
to see phenomenal growth and health as is purported to occur with such mixes as straight akadama but that did not occur. I was not dissatisfied- everything grew "fine" but the search for my own personal Holy Grail continues... I wanted more water retention and less salt retention so of late I've returned to a 20-30% component of organic and amendments (i.e., shagnum, bonemeal, "zeolite", "volcanic sand", etc., the rest being possibly haydite, brickchips and/or perlite. The other driving force was, as I am a student of Mr. Lewis, was to approach as nearly as possible the "school mix" as best I could using materials I have available. I echo all the sentiments here. Currently I tend to use "hardwood mulch" as one gets a better yield and I'm told it maintains it's integrity a bit longer. I'll still use the Home Despot mulch for collected trees. I'm less worried about 1/2 shredded 6" chunks of 2x4 there... One of the side bar risks of pine products are tannins. The overall problem being altered pH and growth suppressing chemicals; the same would be true of oak and other nut tree products such as pecan... The "ultimate" organic thus far seems to be fir bark or "orchid mix" which is fast fading as orchid growers are switching to coconut hull and other such materials that just reduce to a slimy mess in a season here... What is the best choice for you really depends on several factors all going back to your case particulars, namely, watering/feed schedule, climate, desired repotting frequency, etc., etc., Jim Stone Galveston TX ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#2
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Jim Stone wrote:
I've tried the all inorganic route myself and am not a convert. I was hoping to see phenomenal growth and health as is purported to occur with such mixes as straight akadama but that did not occur. I was not dissatisfied- everything grew "fine" but the search for my own personal Holy Grail continues... snip What is the best choice for you really depends on several factors all going back to your case particulars, namely, watering/feed schedule, climate, desired repotting frequency, etc., etc., Jim Stone Galveston TX This sums it up nicely, Jim. I have never gone inorganic and don't plan to. For me, the inorganic route wouldn't be good. Even though I am at home during the day much more than many people, I don't feel I can expose my trees to that level of dryness. Sometimes I have to skip a day of watering because I'm away, and with inorganic soil that would not be possible. The only plants I keep in totally inorganic soils are succulents and cacti. Everything else has organic material. Ok, now the question is going to come up about water retention in bark, which as I understand is not that great. This is why I am finding that compost is a good component. It actually retains water. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Soil discussions are always interesting for me. I did reply with option
4 earlier (all inorganic). What I neglected to mention is that I also have an automated irrigation system. This means I never worry about drying out and the fast draining soil allows me to minimize my worries about over-watering. With that said I should say that this is a soil experiment for me. So far (about 6 months or so) it has worked very well. I use a combination of lava rock and Turface MVP. I feed with Bio-gold and a semi-weekly dose of either Dynagrow or Fish Emulsion. I'll decide later if it is a mix I will stick with or go back to grinding and sifting bark only to have it clog my soil anyway. Let's discuss this more. wmcorcor == This sums it up nicely, Jim. I have never gone inorganic and don't plan == to. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#4
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Bil Corcoran says Let's discuss this more.
O.K., here are my 2c. I have fussed about soil for more than 40 years, looking back over my shoulder at guys like Hal Mahoney, who uses 50% peat and 50% builder's sand, and Horst Krekeller, who uses "anything I can get my hands on". Both of these gents are first class bonsai men, and both have first class trees. What does that tell me? It says that soil composition is far less important than how the individual grower deals with watering, sunlight and fertilizer. We have to know the water retention rate of our mix, the leaching effect, sun vs. shade effect, and deep pot vs. shallow pot effect. We also have to know how nutrients break down in our particular mix. Want know what I use? This year it's Granni-grit ( crushed granite), crushed feather rock, Scultz's clay soil conditioner, crushed charcoal, and ground cedar chips (Cedarcide). As time goes by, I use less and less organic material and more inorganic. Why? Because I have more time now to water whenever things look too dry. Very unscientific, but quite practical. Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corcoran. Bil" To: Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 11:42 AM Subject: [IBC] organic component ..LSOFT.COM +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Marty:
Excellent point. Maybe we do over analyze and maybe the rest of the equation is every bit as important. I couldn't agree more. The mix I did last year had Grani-grit but Jerry Stowell recommended against it because of the alkaline content. I substituted lava rock (which I now hear can have Ph issues also depending on the source). I've never seen feather rock so I'd be curious about that...and Shultz's csc is almost the same as Turface MVP. I think the practicality of what you can get locally and affordably, and the overall care of your plants may be most important than the actual mix for most trees. Thanks, wmcorcor == Want know what I use? This year it's Granni-grit ( crushed granite), == crushed feather rock, Scultz's clay soil conditioner, crushed charcoal, == and == ground cedar chips == (Cedarcide). As time goes by, I use less and less organic material and == more == inorganic. Why? Because I have more time now to water whenever things == look == too dry. Very unscientific, but quite practical. == Marty ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Yeah (just mentioned this in another thread) Turface mvp is pretty small...
Turface pro is even smaller. Haven't tried other turface-like products. /jhd "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:010501c45f9c$b318cb60$c7102cc7@pavilion... Marty: Excellent point. Maybe we do over analyze and maybe the rest of the equation is every bit as important. =========== And don't forget particle size. Smaller particles hold more water, so all-inorganic with 1/8-inch particles may not get as dry as all inorganic with 1/4-inch particles. Personally, I've never found a Turface-like product with 1/4-inch particles despite all the blather about soil ranging from 1/4 to 1/8 size -- and I don't think I would use it if I did. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it should have - Paul Bigelow Sears. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Quoting Craig Cowing :
....I don't feel I can expose my trees to that level of dryness. HA! You're talking to a native NYer now living in TX! There's dry and hot then there's DRY and HOT. I experience NY August weather from May to October. It can be humid but we miss most of the rain that Houston gets. I think one additional issue is the strength of the sun. It definitely eliminates any added benefits I may get from the humidity. Trees dry out pretty quick and must be under shade cloth. Sometimes I have to skip a day of watering because I'm away, and with inorganic soil that would not be possible. Must be nice! I have an auto system and an ace 9 year old. Moisture levels can be controlled with particle sizes and proportions; you could also vary the ingredient- i.e. pumice. You may want to play around with a few seedlings just for edification. I guess moisture retention is an issue if it dries out- kind of like peat but not as difficult? I also use organic fertilizers through summer that add to the organic load. BTW: Congrads. Glad to hear the Lord has blessed you. Jim Stone ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#9
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
wrote:
Quoting Craig Cowing : ...I don't feel I can expose my trees to that level of dryness. HA! You're talking to a native NYer now living in TX! There's dry and hot then there's DRY and HOT. I experience NY August weather from May to October. It can be humid but we miss most of the rain that Houston gets. I think one additional issue is the strength of the sun. It definitely eliminates any added benefits I may get from the humidity. Trees dry out pretty quick and must be under shade cloth. This is why I live in the Northeast (have all of my life) and not in Texas. Sometimes I have to skip a day of watering because I'm away, and with inorganic soil that would not be possible. Must be nice! I have an auto system and an ace 9 year old. Well, my 17 year old covers for me when I'm gone often (usually down in Maryland helping Anita water her trees!) but sometimes he's up visiting his mother. Moisture levels can be controlled with particle sizes and proportions; you could also vary the ingredient- i.e. pumice. You may want to play around with a few seedlings just for edification. I'll pass. I also use organic fertilizers through summer that add to the organic load. Now here's a switch. My llama manure pile has turned to a pile of dirt with weeds growing out of it, so I'm gradually shoveling it in to the compost pile. I'm not in the financial position to buy those boutique organic fertilizers, so I'm just using chemical fertilizers--Miracle Gro (15-30-15) and Peters (20-20-20) alternately. I see no difference in terms of growth over last year. Doesn't mean I don't feel the organic helps, but I don't feel it is absolutely vital for growth, at least in my specific situation. With organic material in the soil already it doesn't seem to be as vital. When Anita has her horse up here I'll try making manure tea from horse poop. (whinney) BTW: Congrads. Glad to hear the Lord has blessed you. Jim Stone Thanks. In more ways than I can recount, and she's at the top of the list right now. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#10
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Quoting Craig Cowing :
I also use organic fertilizers through summer that add to the organic load. I too started using the "teas" - I still do- keep it fermenting all year round- grain hulls from homebrewing, and fertilizer ingredients go in and "brew". I don't go in for the pellets either. We have a bulk fertilizer place where I can get enough cottonseed, blood and bone meal and a quart of fish emulsion to last a few years for about $60. I mix them together adding tea to the liquid to add the digestive microbes... ot just the right consistency then scoop it on with an old ice cream scoop. I use generic "Miracle Grow" for a boost and have been known to buy the straight chemicals and sprinkle them on in teaspoon amounts. My black pines love organics. I think the act of feeding is more important than exactly what you use. Jim Stone Galveston, TX ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Xref: kermit rec.arts.bonsai:75853
A little side note to the organic/inorganic thread; a few years ago at the Pacific Rim collection they noticed one of the trees going down hill shortly after being repotted. They couldn't figure out what the problem was for some time; finally after having the bark mulch that they were using analyzed they discovered that it was laden with salt. It had apparently come from logs that were floated in seawater on the way to the mill. They repotted the tree using 100% inorganic soil, and it subsequently recovered. Dave DeGroot has since eliminated the bark component from their soil mix and uses straight inorganic media for everything in the collection, not wanting to risk using any more contaminated bark. I don't remember the exact mix of soil components they use, but looking at it, it is mostly red lava rock in the 1/8" size range. Regards, Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6. Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#12
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Xref: kermit rec.arts.bonsai:75859
In a message dated 7/1/2004 9:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: I don't remember the exact mix of soil components they use, but looking at it, it is mostly red lava rock in the 1/8" size range. But, the trees in the Pacific Rim collection are large trees. Mostly over three feet. Billy on the Florida Space Coast BSF Annual Convention July 1 - 4, 2005 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral, Florida Workshops with Jerry Meislik of Whitefish, Montana and Chase Rosade of New Hope, PA. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#13
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
wrote:
Quoting Craig Cowing : I also use organic fertilizers through summer that add to the organic load. I too started using the "teas" - I still do- keep it fermenting all year round- grain hulls from homebrewing, and fertilizer ingredients go in and "brew". C'mon up to the wedding and we'll hoist a mug! snip I think the act of feeding is more important than exactly what you use. Jim Stone Galveston, TX Indeed. And of course, the need for fertilizer will vary somewhat according to the species. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#14
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Hi Billy,
I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, many of the trees in the Pacific Rim collection are in the three foot range. They also have a number of trees in the 18 inch to two foot size range as well. The soil mix seems to be the same for all. Regards, Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6. Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy M. Rhodes" But, the trees in the Pacific Rim collection are large trees. Mostly over three feet. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#15
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
In a message dated 7/2/2004 4:39:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes: Hi Billy, I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, many of the trees in the Pacific Rim collection are in the three foot range. They also have a number of trees in the 18 inch to two foot size range as well. The soil mix seems to be the same for all. I was trying to say that the larger particles of inorganic materials you mentioned as making up the potting media for the Pacific Rim Collection would be appropriate for larger trees but might not hold enough moisture for smaller trees. Also the climate of Pacific northwest is unique in this county and the choice of potting media mixtures will depend upon many factors. Billy on the Florida Space Coast BSF Annual Convention July 1 - 4, 2005 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral, Florida Workshops with Jerry Meislik of Whitefish, Montana and Chase Rosade of New Hope, PA. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Help: locating coarse sand as a soil component | Bonsai | |||
[IBC] Help: locating coarse sand as a soil component | Bonsai | |||
[IBC] Help: locating coarse sand as a soil component | Bonsai | |||
[IBC] Bonsai mix - source for organic component(s) | Bonsai | |||
Bonsai mix - source for organic component(s) | Bonsai |