I started Super Beefsteaks, Rutgers, and Brandywine tomato plants from
seeds in peat pots back in early February. Two weeks ago I
transplanted them to large pots in our greenhouse in coastal
California. They were doing well...then three days of heavy frost
hit! Temperatures in the greenhouse dipped below freezing, although
there was obviously no frost inside. Now they are brown and wilted.
Was I mistaken in thinking that it was the frost and not the
temperature that kills tomato plants? Are they likely terminal or
will they revive? TIA for the help.

In article
,
"www.locoworks.com" wrote:

I started Super Beefsteaks, Rutgers, and Brandywine tomato plants from
seeds in peat pots back in early February. Two weeks ago I
transplanted them to large pots in our greenhouse in coastal
California. They were doing well...then three days of heavy frost
hit! Temperatures in the greenhouse dipped below freezing, although
there was obviously no frost inside. Now they are brown and wilted.
Was I mistaken in thinking that it was the frost and not the
temperature that kills tomato plants? Are they likely terminal or
will they revive? TIA for the help.

Freezing is 30F. Did it get below 30F in you greenhouse?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

"www.locoworks.com" wrote:

I started Super Beefsteaks, Rutgers, and Brandywine tomato plants from
seeds in peat pots back in early February. Two weeks ago I
transplanted them to large pots in our greenhouse in coastal
California. They were doing well...then three days of heavy frost
hit! Temperatures in the greenhouse dipped below freezing, although
there was obviously no frost inside. Now they are brown and wilted.
Was I mistaken in thinking that it was the frost and not the
temperature that kills tomato plants? Are they likely terminal or
will they revive? TIA for the help.

Temperatures below freezing will kill any tomatoe plant I know of. The
frost
was probably coincidental to this problem, adding to it. If your plants are
still
showing some green, they may recover, but I doubt it. Next time, take the
plants inside, or rig up some kind of heater.

Sorry for the loss,

Sherwin

On Mar 19, 10:43�pm, Billy wrote:

Freezing is 30F. Did it get below 30F in you greenhouse?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Freezing is 32F, but it did get down to 30 in the greenhouse. I shall
start new seeds today and welcome the onset of spring.

In article
,
"www.locoworks.com" wrote:

On Mar 19, 10:43?pm, Billy wrote:

Freezing is 30F. Did it get below 30F in you greenhouse?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the
Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Freezing is 32F, but it did get down to 30 in the greenhouse. I shall
start new seeds today and welcome the onset of spring.

Take notes. Water drops to 30F before it freezes (crystalizes). Upon
crystalizing, it releases the "heat of crystallization".
http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/o...rystallization
This heat warms the ice to 32F (any warmer and it would melt).
This is why orchards and vineyards use sprinkler system to protect their
crops. As long as you are making ice, the temperature will stay at 32F.

Even placing a 100 watt light on the floor of the green house and having
a timer turn it on between 2 AM and 6 AM may have saved them. One of
these years, we won't have to say, wait till next year;-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

greenhouse tomatoes are ideal especially between December and April.

On Mar 20, 12:48�pm, Billy wrote:
In article
,

�"www.locoworks.com" wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:43?pm, Billy wrote:

Freezing is 30F. Did it get below 30F in you greenhouse?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the
Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Freezing is 32F, but it did get down to 30 in the greenhouse. �I shall
start new seeds today and welcome the onset of spring.

Take notes. Water drops to 30F before it freezes (crystalizes). Upon
crystalizing, it releases the "heat of crystallization".http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/o...rystallization
This heat warms the ice �to 32F (any warmer and it would melt).
This is why orchards and vineyards use sprinkler system to protect their
crops. As long as you are making ice, the temperature will stay at 32F.

Even placing a 100 watt light on the floor of the green house and having
a timer turn it on between 2 AM and 6 AM may have saved them. One of
these years, we won't have to say, wait till next year;-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Say, Billy,
You might want to take some notes yourself:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a891215.html

In article
,
"www.locoworks.com" wrote:

On Mar 20, 12:48?pm, Billy wrote:
In article
,

?"www.locoworks.com" wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:43?pm, Billy wrote:

Freezing is 30F. Did it get below 30F in you greenhouse?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the
Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Freezing is 32F, but it did get down to 30 in the greenhouse. ?I shall
start new seeds today and welcome the onset of spring.

Take notes. Water drops to 30F before it freezes (crystalizes). Upon
crystalizing, it releases the "heat of
crystallization".http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/o...f+crystallizat
ion
This heat warms the ice ?to 32F (any warmer and it would melt).
This is why orchards and vineyards use sprinkler system to protect their
crops. As long as you are making ice, the temperature will stay at 32F.

Even placing a 100 watt light on the floor of the green house and having
a timer turn it on between 2 AM and 6 AM may have saved them. One of
these years, we won't have to say, wait till next year;-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the
Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Say, Billy,
You might want to take some notes yourself:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a891215.html

32 F is so ingrained in popular culture. I may hae to go to my anciet
textbook. I'll keep looking for for a clean explantion.

In the mean time, as a place marker I'll leave you
www.wvu.edu/~exten/infores/pubs/ageng/sw4.pdf .

Forth paragraph, third sentence

Ice may not form when the frost is very light; temperatures
will usually be 1F - 2F below freezing before ice starts to form.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:56:18 -0700 (PDT), "www.locoworks.com"
wrote:

Say, Billy,
You might want to take some notes yourself:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a891215.html


"And awaaaay we go"

Charlie, doing his best Jackie imitation

Oh, tais toi, and help me find my "P" chem book;-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 18:12:30 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:56:18 -0700 (PDT), "www.locoworks.com"
wrote:

Say, Billy,
You might want to take some notes yourself:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a891215.html


"And awaaaay we go"

Charlie, doing his best Jackie imitation

Oh, tais toim, and help me find my "P" chem book;-)

Last seen, it was in that huge pile of gardening catalogs behind the
stack of wine bottles, next to your rocker in the southeast corner of
the basement.

Tais toim? Ouais. Peu probable. ;-)

Charlie Seau Bouche

Mon dieu, comme tu est insupportable.

Tais toim? Te veux dire tais moi.

Charlie, bucket mouth, I can believe. I hope we can make old bones
together.

Bon, je peut le faire tout seul.

Dors bien.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article
,
Billy wrote:


32 F is so ingrained in popular culture. I may hae to go to my anciet
textbook. I'll keep looking for for a clean explantion.
(And I hadn't even had dinner yet.)
32 F is so ingrained in popular culture. I may have to go to my ancient
textbooks. I'll keep looking for for a clean explantion.


In the mean time, as a place marker I'll leave you
www.wvu.edu/~exten/infores/pubs/ageng/sw4.pdf .

Forth paragraph, third sentence

Ice may not form when the frost is very light; temperatures
will usually be 1F - 2F below freezing before ice starts to form.
This plus my first reference from
http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/o...rystallization
which mentions heat being liberated because of crystallization is my
present argument for 30F as the freezing point of water. If 32F was the
freezing point, additional heat would melt the ice.

Still, I'll search for an authoritative answer for you.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

On Mar 20, 9:54 pm, Billy wrote:
In article

Still, I'll search for an authoritative answer for you.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

William,

From the third paragraph, second sentence of the op. cit.:

One gallon of water at 32 F, changing into ice at 32 F, gives off
approximately 1200 BTU's (British Thermal Units) of heat.

The reference you cited disproves your point! There's an authoritive
answer for you. Chill out!

In article
,
"www.locoworks.com" wrote:

On Mar 20, 9:54 pm, Billy wrote:
In article

Still, I'll search for an authoritative answer for you.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the
Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

William,

From the third paragraph, second sentence of the op. cit.:

One gallon of water at 32 F, changing into ice at 32 F, gives off
approximately 1200 BTU's (British Thermal Units) of heat.

The reference you cited disproves your point! There's an authoritive
answer for you. Chill out!

Hang on to your 'tude bro. You need to find yourself some emoticoms or
somethin'.

Riddle me this, if the water becomes ice at 32F and releases 1200 BTU's
(British Thermal Units) of heat, it should get warmer, no? Now we have
ice at 32F + ? Hmmmm. And it has to be 32F to turn into ice, hmmm?

In the mean time, chill one for me too:-)

And if you seriously have nothin' better to do.
http://swiss-lupe.blogspot.com/2008/...feinde-schafft
-3.html
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article ,
Rick wrote:

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 18:11:03 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article
,
"www.locoworks.com" wrote:

On Mar 20, 12:48?pm, Billy wrote:
In article
,

?"www.locoworks.com" wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:43?pm, Billy wrote:

Freezing is 30F. Did it get below 30F in you greenhouse?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the
Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Freezing is 32F, but it did get down to 30 in the greenhouse. ?I shall
start new seeds today and welcome the onset of spring.

Take notes. Water drops to 30F before it freezes (crystalizes). Upon
crystalizing, it releases the "heat of
crystallization".http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/o...t+of+crystalli
zat
ion
This heat warms the ice ?to 32F (any warmer and it would melt).
This is why orchards and vineyards use sprinkler system to protect their
crops. As long as you are making ice, the temperature will stay at 32F.

Even placing a 100 watt light on the floor of the green house and having
a timer turn it on between 2 AM and 6 AM may have saved them. One of
these years, we won't have to say, wait till next year;-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the
Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Say, Billy,
You might want to take some notes yourself:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a891215.html

32 F is so ingrained in popular culture. I may have to go to my ancient
textbooks. I'll keep looking for for a clean explantion.

In the mean time, as a place marker I'll leave you
www.wvu.edu/~exten/infores/pubs/ageng/sw4.pdf .

Forth paragraph, third sentence

Ice may not form when the frost is very light; temperatures
will usually be 1F - 2F below freezing before ice starts to form.


Ahhhh, this explains the periodic Monsanto threads!

?????????? I'm afraid you have the advantage on me. Did the tyrants of
food make ice nine or somethin'?

Please share.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article
,
"www.locoworks.com" wrote:

On Mar 20, 12:48?pm, Billy wrote:
In article
,

?"www.locoworks.com" wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:43?pm, Billy wrote:

Freezing is 30F. Did it get below 30F in you greenhouse?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the

Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Freezing is 32F, but it did get down to 30 in the greenhouse. ?I shall
start new seeds today and welcome the onset of spring.

Take notes. Water drops to 30F before it freezes (crystalizes).

The freezing point of water is 32 F and in practice it generally does freeze
at that temperature. Liquid water CAN get to lower than that (not 30F
specifically) but it would then be called supercooled.

Upon
crystalizing, it releases the "heat of

crystallization".http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/o...f+crystallizat
ion
This heat warms the ice ?to 32F (any warmer and it would melt).

This is somewhat confused.

For liquid water at 32 F to transition to solid water at 32 F requires the
latent heat of crystalisation to be removed from it to an external source, the
water does not spontaneously give up this heat, it must be taken somewhere
else, usually by contact with something or radiation to something that is
below 32F. So the latent heat isn't doing any raising of the temperature but
it will stop the temperature falling for a while.

This is why orchards and vineyards use sprinkler system to protect their
crops. As long as you are making ice, the temperature will stay at 32F.


Yes the presence of liquid water will tend to keep things "warm" firstly as it
takes heat to cool it down to 32 F (specific heat) from whatever temp it is
stored at. This is significant as the specific heat of water is high compared
to most things and very high compared to air. So spraying water increases
thermal mass, which reduces the rate of cooling.

Secondly the latent heat must be given up during freezing before reducing the
temperature of water below 32 F. To give some idea of the relative
importance, in round figures it would take ten times as much energy to freeze
an amount of water at 32 F as to cool the same amount to 32 F from 46F.

But you are likely to get local spots where cooling is taking place faster
than the supply of liquid water and the temp drops below 32F. So while latent
heat has more effect than specific heat the plants may still get chilled below
32F. However since plant tissues do not contain pure water their freezing
point will be below 32F and they may not get tissue damage if they don't
freeze. All this is generalising of course and the degree of damage will
depend on the plant and the actual conditions.


Even placing a 100 watt light on the floor of the green house and having
a timer turn it on between 2 AM and 6 AM may have saved them. One of
these years, we won't have to say, wait till next year;-)
--


Another way to give some protection is to increase the thermal mass of the
greenhouse with big tubs or barrels of water. A third is to blanket it at
night to reduce heat loss. Quite thin coverings may reduce radiation loss to
a cold sky.

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the
Haguehttp://angryarab.blogspot.com/http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Say, Billy,
You might want to take some notes yourself:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a891215.html

32 F is so ingrained in popular culture.

There is a reason for that!

I may hae to go to my anciet
textbook. I'll keep looking for for a clean explantion.

In the mean time, as a place marker I'll leave you
www.wvu.edu/~exten/infores/pubs/ageng/sw4.pdf .

Forth paragraph, third sentence

Ice may not form when the frost is very light; temperatures
will usually be 1F - 2F below freezing before ice starts to form.
--


This would be an example of supercooling. The degree of supercooling depends
on the conditions, if the environment is very clean, that is no dust etc, and
cooling takes place quickly supercooling is more likely that when dust nuclei
are present and there is time for the ice crystals to sort themselves out.

David