In article ,
"blah, blah, blah..." wrote:

I would love to reply to your post, but alas...
I can not read, much less reply to any post involving a reply from "billy"
I'm not trying to be caustic, but...talk about someone that has
(apparently..at least to me) no life except on this NG.
I will read any new post, but if there is a reply from "him", I will read no
further. I have rarely seen a group with a poster who is so full of
himself. On one hand it's funny, on the other it's annoying. It makes me
reluctant to check the group...and I hate that. Not trying to rant...I'm
just saying..............

Take phorbin's advice. There is no reason for you to have to read my
posts. It isn't obligatory to read all posts. If you can't just delete,
or skip over my posts, then "KILL FILE" me. Lord knows, I've used it
often enough.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article ,
"blah, blah, blah..." wrote:

I would love to reply to your post, but alas...
I can not read, much less reply to any post involving a reply from "billy"
I'm not trying to be caustic, but...talk about someone that has
(apparently..at least to me) no life except on this NG.
I will read any new post, but if there is a reply from "him", I will read no
further. I have rarely seen a group with a poster who is so full of
himself. On one hand it's funny, on the other it's annoying. It makes me
reluctant to check the group...and I hate that. Not trying to rant...I'm
just saying..............

A healthy newsgroup needs all kinds of personality types, each with a
different style of writing, views on life and on gardening techniques. I
see gardening as mostly art, some science and with a little wonder. Take
what you want and ignore the rest. This is a free speech area. Lets not
censor anyone!

--
Enjoy Life... Dan

Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"None4U" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

None4U wrote:
Hello,

Id like to hear from you about my garden I put in. The neighbors
are
apparently baffled by it. I'm not 100 % sure either . I will give
you a brief description and why I did this. And criticism will be
greatly appreciated. This is the first garden I've put in in about
10 years. I gave up because I bought horse manure and the weeds
from
it overran my garden year after year and I couldn't kill them off.
Primarily morning glories that choked my plants and made a jungle .
I
became motivated by the No work garden book by Ruth Stout.

The garden is 30 by 16.

Feet.

Since you go on to use inches this is probably in feet. Perhaps you
should
recall that the USA is about the only country that still uses such
primitive
measures. I thought it was because they have 12 fingers and toes but
apparently polydactyly isn't so common so there is some other reason.

The US government has a vested interest to keep people stupid.



Its tilled horse manure at least 15 years old.

It is a wonder there is anything left after that long. It must be
chilly
around there.

I put 4 bales of hay on it a month ago. And spread it around .
3 lbs of 10-10-10 fertilizer and made 4 rows of garden fabric 4 feet
wide. And laid them with two inches spaces between them. And I
have treated timbers covering every edge of the fabric. So it wont
move or blow away.

I take it this fabric is porous?

Yup.

So where do you walk? In the 2in slot? You should leave a path for
you
and
your barrow otherwise you will compact the soil.

The fabric is 4 feet wide. Except for the corn the plants are in
the
middle. Theres four feet between the rows. You just walk on the fabric



I pick up one side of the fabric , spread the hay aside. and put
plants in . Then cut a hole in the fabric so the plants will fit
through the fabric. . Wherever I want the plants at. Then I put
the
fabric back down and the timbers to hold it.

It is a bit time consuming to do this. To get the plants in and the
holes cut in the right place. But weed control has been a major
issue here. Every year.

The fabric is for weed control. The hay is there to turn to mulch
for
next year. And was my original plan for weed control. I didn't know
it didn't work on morning glories until I got Ruth Stouts later
books. So I added the fabric.

I bought two flats of plants

The Rows are east to west.

Not ideal. North-south is better. The sunward sides of the E-W rows
will
get much more sun than the pole side. If you run them N-S both sides
get
the same, of course in the antipodes we run them S-N.

Oh ,


Row 1 is north.

Row 1 has 36 corn plants about 1 foot apart in three rows. And 3
tomato plants 3 foot apart centered.


Is this sunward or poleward? I am guessing poleward so if the tall
stuff
is
at that end it is OK.


Sunward, and the tall stuff is north.


Row 2 has 10 tomato plants about 3 foot apart

On row 3. I cut the fabric lengthwise down the middle and put in 6
eggplants , 2 foot apart. And four pepper plants about 2 foot
apart.

Outside the fabric rows . Far south. In the soil I put in about 40
onion sets. And I have a 2 foot section about 25 feet long left
over.

And the 2 inch spaces between the rows for other plants. I'm not
sure what to put in there but I'm out of plants. I have Beet ,
broccoli, and carrot seeds I could put in there. I've got sugar,
snow peas and provider bean seeds too.

The rest of the flats. and the partial sun items lettuce, celery,
more onion sets I put in another small rough soil plot by the house
as it gets partial sun.

I don't know your climate so I am not sure about planting onions, peas
and
broccoli with the summer veges.


Ohio, growing season is May to Oct. Snow is in Dec to April. Were
just past frost risk now.

I would grow these through winter but my
summer is very hot and my winter is cool but does not have snow or
ice.
Somebody who is more familiar with your region would advise better.

The ground and Everything freezes . Im not familiar with any
winter
gardening techniques here. Everyone plows .



I did the fabric technique three years in a row and it works pretty
good. But not with the hay under it. I've not ever used hay before.
This
is my main concern. Will the hay do something bad sitting there
all year under the garden fabric. Or am I ok.


If the fabric allows air and water to penetrate there shouldn't be a
problem.


It does

Id really like to have a continuous mulch garden and put on 6 inches
of hay every fall. And let it sit and compact through the winter.

And I was going to just cover the plot for the year and kill
everything off and start next year.

But I came up with this idea.

I haven't left much out.

Anything wrong with what I did.

Thanks

Diesel.

I don't see anything really bad about what you have done, there are a
couple
of areas to improve. It might have been quicker and cheaper to let
all
the
weeds come up, nuke them and then use mulch for weed supression but
since
you have bought the fabric you may as well use it.

I am dying to know what the neighbours said.

The neighbors said it looked like crap and wont grow anything through
the
hay. With the hay laying around. It looks pretty nice now with the
fabric
on it.



David

What sticks out to me is the 4 bales of straw which have a carbon to
nitrogen ratio of 50 to 100. Four bales probably weigh about 240 lbs
(109 kg) probably need a pound of 10-X-X to give a C/N ratio of 25, to
keep the microbes from sucking up all the available N in consuming the
straw's C. This disregards any N that may be in the 15 year old horse
manure. You could also use 30 gal. of fish emulsion, or 4 lbs chicken
manure, or 7 lbs of horse manure.



Before I put the fabric on it. I put 2 lbs of 10-10-10 on it. Now
that
you mentioned fish emulsion. I have a gallon of concentrated fish
emulsion
with no use. Im going to put that on there to get rid of it. The hay was
240 lbs. The fabric does flow water and air.

Can I keep putting hay on it every fall for mulch. And get good soil
after
a couple years.

Yeah, but I don't know why you are using the fabric cover. Normally, you
would put down your amendments (manure, rock phosphate, wood ash, small
chunks of charcoal from fireplaces or BBQs), cover with newspaper or
cardboard to suppress weeds, and cover all with mulch. After a couple of
weeks, poke holes in the layering, down into the dirt and plant. The
mulch and paper will suppress the weeds, and retain the moisture. The
manure, and the bi-monthly feedings with fish emulsion will allow the
microbes to consume the mulch, and the life cycles of the soil microbes
will feed and nourish your plants and make topsoil.

See if you can't get the following books from your library to further
explain what is going on:

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...ulture/dp/1603
580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1
--
- Billy



I have teaming with mocrobes here now, i wil start on it tomorrowq morning.



"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article ,
"None4U" wrote:

I have teaming with mocrobes here now, i wil start on it tomorrowq morning.


You'll find "Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food
Web"
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb...l/dp/088192777
5/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1
a fascinating read.
along with

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...ulture/dp/1603
580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1
covers the much the same ground as "Teaming with Microbes", plus
composting, and aspects of permaculture.

and

"How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0


"Vegetable Gardener' Bible" by Edward C. Smith.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815454&sr=1-1
are all you need to chart the course of you garden.

The first two really address organic gardening and how and why organic
gardeners do what they do.

"How to Grow More Vegetables" addresses organization of the beds in
their near infinite combinations and permutations.

Lastly, the "Vegetable Gardener' Bible" tells you what the individual
plants need.

Of course this is a gross simplification, in that the books over lap,
but these are their strengths.

I can't remember how I came up with "Teaming with Microbes" but it got
me started down the right path. "Vegetable Gardener' Bible" just had
good review on Amazon, and it has been very helpful in getting to know
the cast of my garden. A friend who was un-plugging from the "grid",
told me of "How to Grow More Vegetables", which talks of bed planting
and not wasting space with rows, among other things. Either Bill or
Charlie introduced me to "Gaia's Garden", but it took another year or so
before I got to read it. So many books and so little time :O)

Hope you enjoy them as much as I do.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

None4U wrote:
....
Anything wrong with what I did.

the trouble we've had here with
weed fabric and mulch is that the
mice just love burrowing under it
and chew it up to use as nest lining
and eventually it degrades...

we have a healthy population of
snakes, but they do not control
the rodent population. owls and
hawks don't do it enough either.

the wild areas we used to have
have been converted to managed
areas to keep the rodents population
down. before we did that i was
regularly trapping mice. yes, i know
about carrying capacity, etc and all
that...

the house itself was not designed
with rodent warfare in mind. that
has been the most troublesome
aspect. luckily a few fixes have
been made to keep things from
getting stir crazy, but i have to keep
some snap traps around for those
that find their way in the walls in
the winter (they don't get inside).

my tightening of the base/foundation
seems to be holding them off from
the crawlspace so far. no food or
water down there for them and
plenty of wire mesh they won't
chew through (if they can't smell
food or water on the other side
they go elsewheres) or so i
continue to hope.

this is a long winded way of
saying good luck.


songbird