David Hare-Scott wrote:
songbird wrote:
Roy wrote:
...
Derris dust will control those cabbage moths...why don't you use it?

doesn't meet my requirements.

Bt doesn't either.

Why?

dislike poisons in general. don't trust that
this one only affects the bug in question. don't
like repeated applications as that is expensive
and also can breed resistance.

if there is resistance i'd have to continue to
monitor and hand pick along with the repeated
spraying -- just doesn't seem to gain much in
the end. i don't mind hand-picking, just that
i ignored them for a while (we had regulr rains
for the past six weeks) as they were growing
well and i had other things to do. when watering
yesterday i noticed they were being chewed on...

now that i know i have to include it in the
daily routine we'll see how it goes.


songbird

David Hare-Scott wrote:
songbird wrote:

....
as i've not really cared much about the
white butterflies before to pay attention to
their life cycle i figured i could ask the
experts here about them.

i'm assuming that as long as they are
flying around they are capable of laying
eggs. so the quest of picking worms off
will likely be until i stop seeing them
flying around.

Yes

i may take a butterfly net with me as
sometimes i can get fairly close enough
to the butterflies.


as to specific questions, do they ever
give up? or can they have more than one
generation per season?


No they never give up except when it is too cold, yes they can have many
generations per season depending on how long your warm season is.

i'm not seeing any reference which says that
they will cocoon and hatch out again more than
once a season. i do see references which say
that they lay eggs all season and are fairly
cold hardy.


the cabbage is getting a more compact
inner set of leaves now, do the worms keep
burrowing in or will the plant be able to
form a head anyways if i ignore them? it
looks like it can be hard to get all the
worms off of those inner leaves without
breaking them off.


The worms will only attack the outside but still will cause quite a bit of
waste.

that's ok. we just want organic/non-sprayed
cabbage. if they have to cut around damage
during processing that is fairly normal anyways.


when the worms are done where do they
hibernate/pupate?


Where you can't find them.

hehe. probably some of them, but if they
don't crawl far before spinning there's not
much place for them to go in this particular
patch. if they will use the underside of rocks
then i can likely find some of them (and the
raccoons will find some of them too).


i had a nice handful of them today and
put them in soapy water to drown them. poor
guys.

yes, i know i can google all of this, but
it's fun to also be able to talk to people
about their experiences.

as for control, hand picking seems to be the
only option as i don't spray anything other
than water on the plants. if there are other
ways of controlling them (bugs to encourage
other than praying mantis or birds that will
eat them or the butterflies, etc.) i'll be
interested in hearing your experiences with
what you've attempted and what's worked the
best.


By far the simplest solution if you don't want to spray is netting. Use
polymer netting that is used on fruit trees, the mesh is about 2cm (1in) and
the butterflies cannot get through. No butterlfies means no eggs, no eggs
no grubs. Youy can make hoops out of polypipe to stand the net off the
cabbage. The same applies to any brassica that the cabbage butterfly eats.

if i can protect the heads using old stockings
that would be much more preferable (less material
used and less fuss and bother overall). just
not experienced enough with cabbage yet to know
how they work/grow/habit, etc.

my mistake was ignoring the plants to begin
with, they looked good from a distance and i
didn't need to water them for quite some time.
with the white butterflies floating around i
should have kept a closer eye on them.

as they say, yet another growth experience...
next batch will get a daily inspection now that
i see what the worms can do.

thanks,


songbird

In article ,
says...

hehe. probably some of them, but if they
don't crawl far before spinning there's not
much place for them to go in this particular
patch. if they will use the underside of rocks
then i can likely find some of them (and the
raccoons will find some of them too).

http://horticulture.oregonstate.edu/...hite-butterfly

The problem is their pupation on wild hosts.

You can get them in the garden, but the wild mustards in the district are a
little harder to find.

In article
songbird writes:
Ian Gay wrote:
...
Since there's only 12 plants involved, it's not much work to
just pick the caterpillars by hand and stomp on them.

yep, that's what i'll be doing for now, but
still reading and interested in comments about
life-cycle or habits of creatures and plants.

so far one source says to enclose the head in
stockings to keep them out, but that doesn't take
care of those already inside or tell me if the
plant will out grow those inside (as they must
eventually eat enough at some point...) and end
up with a solid cabbage head after all.

Very dated experience has me doubtful that a cabbage worm could
ever get full.

I think the only zero-input method is enclosing the plants early
(row covers or such). Otherwise, picking or poison.

My experience is with broccoli, but I assume they behave about the
same on cabbage.

looks like only one life-cycle per season.

the other thing is that there are very few
decoy varieties around. i have almost no
other brassicas in the gardens/yard. so these
plants are acting like a magnet...


songbird


--
Drew Lawson Some men's dreams
for others turn to nightmares.
I never would have thought this
in my wildest dreams.

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,

says...

phorbin wrote:
...
BTK in most cases does just fine.

Why don't you try it.

doesn't meet my requirements.

My response was to Roy's suggestion.

Having read another post of yours, I'd bet that your biggest helper will
probably be wasps.

If you've watched them patrol cabbages, broccoli and the like, you'll have
noticed that they are very thorough and go over every leaf top and bottom
until
they find something.

We let the wasps nest mostly wherever and have their own harvest. Between our
picking and squashing and their stinging and carrying away, the cabbages do
well.

One season we had a huge paper wasp nest in the garden shed and no cabbage
caterpillars.

It's a bit different after the cabbages head up. Then our problem is mostly
earwigs and slugs.

Larvae of the cabbage butterfly are green and very hairy, with an almost
velvet like appearance. Older larvae may be up to an inch long and often
have one faint yellow-orange stripe down their backs and broken stripes
along the sides. Compared to other caterpillars, cabbageworms move
slowly and are sluggish but they feed voraciously on both the outer and
inner leaves, often feeding along the midrib, at the base of the wrapper
leaves, or boring into the heads of cabbage. After 2 to 3 weeks of
feeding, larvae pupate attached by a few strands of silk to stems or
other nearby objects; pupae are green with faint yellow lines down the
back and sides; there is no spun cocoon. The adult cabbage butterfly is
white with one to four black spots on the wings; they are often seen
fluttering around the fields. The whitish, rocket-shaped eggs are laid
singly on the undersides of leaves.

Natural enemies can assist significantly in the control of imported
cabbageworms. Important parasites include the pupal parasite Pteromalus
puparum; the larval parasites Apanteles glomeratus, Microplitis
plutella, and several tachinid flies; and egg parasites in the
Trichogramma genus. Viruses and bacterial diseases are also sometimes
important control factors in the field.

TACHINID FLY

(many species)

DESCRIPTION

Tachinid flies are North America's largest and
most important group of parasitic flies, with at
least 1300 species in the U.S. Adult tachinid flies
resemble small houseflies and may be covered in
dark bristly hairs. Their bodies measure anywhere
from 1/3" to 1/4". Adult tachinids are commonly
found pollinating flowers and resting on leaves.
The adults are important pollinators and the larvae
consume incredible amounts of pests.

LIFE CYCLE

Tachinid flies are parasites. Some female tachinid
flies lay their eggs on the bodies of host insects,
after which the eggs hatch and the larvae tunnel
inside and excavate the host's body. Other
species deposit live larvae directly into the hosts.
And still other tachinids lay eggs on plants in
hopes that the eggs will be digested by a host
insect (caterpillars in particular) and gain access
that way.

PESTS THEY CONTROL

Tachinid fly larvae help rid your garden of:

Caterpillars of many kinds (including cabbage
worms and Gypsy moth), Colorado potato beetles,
corn ear worms, cucumber beetles, cutworms,
earwigs, four lined plant bugs, Japanese beetles,
Mexican bean beetles, sawfly larvae, squash
bugs, tobacco budworms.

Larval tachinid flies begin to consume their hosts by
eating non-essentia tissue first; as a result the host
will continue to grow and feed normally--for a
while. Only when this material is fully consumed,
will the larvae turn to eating vital organs. After all,
it's in the tachinid larvae's best interest to allow
their host to live as long as possible so they can
grow fat and sassy. The larvae then pupate into
adults either inside or outside their prey's body.


HOW TO ATTRACT AND KEEP THEM

Preferring to feed on nectar from small flowers,
tachinid flies are lured to habitats rich in flowering
herbs, especially those in the dill family: cilantro,
dill, fennel, parsley, and Queen Anne's lace
are very attractive. They also enjoy nectar from
members of the daisy family including: Aster,
chamomile, feverfew, ox-eye daisy and Shasta
daisy. Flowering buckwheat is said to be another
good draw.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Drew Lawson wrote:
songbird writes:
Ian Gay wrote:
...
Since there's only 12 plants involved, it's not much work to
just pick the caterpillars by hand and stomp on them.

yep, that's what i'll be doing for now, but
still reading and interested in comments about
life-cycle or habits of creatures and plants.

so far one source says to enclose the head in
stockings to keep them out, but that doesn't take
care of those already inside or tell me if the
plant will out grow those inside (as they must
eventually eat enough at some point...) and end
up with a solid cabbage head after all.

Very dated experience has me doubtful that a cabbage worm could
ever get full.

heh, yeah, they sure leave huge piles
of droppings. yet they have to reach adult
size eventually.

it has really helped a lot to rinse the
plants off after picking the worms. makes
the next round of hand picking easier.

in picking them off today i've gotten the
population down significantly. only a few
dozen today and most of them the smaller
sized ones. will check again later.


I think the only zero-input method is enclosing the plants early
(row covers or such). Otherwise, picking or poison.

looks like hand picking will be tolerable.


My experience is with broccoli, but I assume they behave about the
same on cabbage.

brocolli must be easier. you don't have to
find 'em inside the curling leaves.


songbird

Billy wrote:
....
where is this quoted from?

Larvae of the cabbage butterfly are green and very hairy, with an almost
velvet like appearance. Older larvae may be up to an inch long and often
have one faint yellow-orange stripe down their backs and broken stripes
along the sides. Compared to other caterpillars, cabbageworms move
slowly and are sluggish but they feed voraciously on both the outer and
inner leaves, often feeding along the midrib, at the base of the wrapper
leaves, or boring into the heads of cabbage. After 2 to 3 weeks of
feeding, larvae pupate attached by a few strands of silk to stems or
other nearby objects; pupae are green with faint yellow lines down the
back and sides; there is no spun cocoon. The adult cabbage butterfly is
white with one to four black spots on the wings; they are often seen
fluttering around the fields. The whitish, rocket-shaped eggs are laid
singly on the undersides of leaves.

Natural enemies can assist significantly in the control of imported
cabbageworms. Important parasites include the pupal parasite Pteromalus
puparum; the larval parasites Apanteles glomeratus, Microplitis
plutella, and several tachinid flies; and egg parasites in the
Trichogramma genus. Viruses and bacterial diseases are also sometimes
important control factors in the field.


and this too? quoted from?

TACHINID FLY

(many species)

DESCRIPTION

Tachinid flies are North America's largest and
most important group of parasitic flies, with at
least 1300 species in the U.S. Adult tachinid flies
resemble small houseflies and may be covered in
dark bristly hairs. Their bodies measure anywhere
from 1/3" to 1/4". Adult tachinids are commonly
found pollinating flowers and resting on leaves.
The adults are important pollinators and the larvae
consume incredible amounts of pests.

LIFE CYCLE

Tachinid flies are parasites. Some female tachinid
flies lay their eggs on the bodies of host insects,
after which the eggs hatch and the larvae tunnel
inside and excavate the host's body. Other
species deposit live larvae directly into the hosts.
And still other tachinids lay eggs on plants in
hopes that the eggs will be digested by a host
insect (caterpillars in particular) and gain access
that way.

PESTS THEY CONTROL

Tachinid fly larvae help rid your garden of:

Caterpillars of many kinds (including cabbage
worms and Gypsy moth), Colorado potato beetles,
corn ear worms, cucumber beetles, cutworms,
earwigs, four lined plant bugs, Japanese beetles,
Mexican bean beetles, sawfly larvae, squash
bugs, tobacco budworms.

Larval tachinid flies begin to consume their hosts by
eating non-essentia tissue first; as a result the host
will continue to grow and feed normally--for a
while. Only when this material is fully consumed,
will the larvae turn to eating vital organs. After all,
it's in the tachinid larvae's best interest to allow
their host to live as long as possible so they can
grow fat and sassy. The larvae then pupate into
adults either inside or outside their prey's body.


HOW TO ATTRACT AND KEEP THEM

Preferring to feed on nectar from small flowers,
tachinid flies are lured to habitats rich in flowering
herbs, especially those in the dill family: cilantro,
dill, fennel, parsley, and Queen Anne's lace
are very attractive. They also enjoy nectar from
members of the daisy family including: Aster,
chamomile, feverfew, ox-eye daisy and Shasta
daisy. Flowering buckwheat is said to be another
good draw.

we have tons of herbs flowering most of the season.
right now the mints, oreganoes, thymes are full of
bees. many different species of bees too, i'm glad
to see.

i don't let queen-anne's-lace grow here, but i
could tolerate fennel, dill, cilantro, parsley.
also, plenty of buckwheat scattered around.

also have shasta daisy and chamomile in places.
asters grow wild, and we try to keep a few plants
going in the gardens, but they don't seem to do
well in our soil. the one's in the ditches do
much better.

will have to search for pictures of them as i
probably have seen them about...


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
where is this quoted from?

Larvae of the cabbage butterfly are green and very hairy, with an almost
velvet like appearance. Older larvae may be up to an inch long and often
have one faint yellow-orange stripe down their backs and broken stripes
along the sides. Compared to other caterpillars, cabbageworms move
slowly and are sluggish but they feed voraciously on both the outer and
inner leaves, often feeding along the midrib, at the base of the wrapper
leaves, or boring into the heads of cabbage. After 2 to 3 weeks of
feeding, larvae pupate attached by a few strands of silk to stems or
other nearby objects; pupae are green with faint yellow lines down the
back and sides; there is no spun cocoon. The adult cabbage butterfly is
white with one to four black spots on the wings; they are often seen
fluttering around the fields. The whitish, rocket-shaped eggs are laid
singly on the undersides of leaves.

Natural enemies can assist significantly in the control of imported
cabbageworms. Important parasites include the pupal parasite Pteromalus
puparum; the larval parasites Apanteles glomeratus, Microplitis
plutella, and several tachinid flies; and egg parasites in the
Trichogramma genus. Viruses and bacterial diseases are also sometimes
important control factors in the field.


and this too? quoted from?

TACHINID FLY

(many species)

DESCRIPTION

Tachinid flies are North America's largest and
most important group of parasitic flies, with at
least 1300 species in the U.S. Adult tachinid flies
resemble small houseflies and may be covered in
dark bristly hairs. Their bodies measure anywhere
from 1/3" to 1/4". Adult tachinids are commonly
found pollinating flowers and resting on leaves.
The adults are important pollinators and the larvae
consume incredible amounts of pests.

LIFE CYCLE

Tachinid flies are parasites. Some female tachinid
flies lay their eggs on the bodies of host insects,
after which the eggs hatch and the larvae tunnel
inside and excavate the host's body. Other
species deposit live larvae directly into the hosts.
And still other tachinids lay eggs on plants in
hopes that the eggs will be digested by a host
insect (caterpillars in particular) and gain access
that way.

PESTS THEY CONTROL

Tachinid fly larvae help rid your garden of:

Caterpillars of many kinds (including cabbage
worms and Gypsy moth), Colorado potato beetles,
corn ear worms, cucumber beetles, cutworms,
earwigs, four lined plant bugs, Japanese beetles,
Mexican bean beetles, sawfly larvae, squash
bugs, tobacco budworms.

Larval tachinid flies begin to consume their hosts by
eating non-essentia tissue first; as a result the host
will continue to grow and feed normally--for a
while. Only when this material is fully consumed,
will the larvae turn to eating vital organs. After all,
it's in the tachinid larvae's best interest to allow
their host to live as long as possible so they can
grow fat and sassy. The larvae then pupate into
adults either inside or outside their prey's body.


HOW TO ATTRACT AND KEEP THEM

Preferring to feed on nectar from small flowers,
tachinid flies are lured to habitats rich in flowering
herbs, especially those in the dill family: cilantro,
dill, fennel, parsley, and Queen Anne's lace
are very attractive. They also enjoy nectar from
members of the daisy family including: Aster,
chamomile, feverfew, ox-eye daisy and Shasta
daisy. Flowering buckwheat is said to be another
good draw.

we have tons of herbs flowering most of the season.
right now the mints, oreganoes, thymes are full of
bees. many different species of bees too, i'm glad
to see.

i don't let queen-anne's-lace grow here, but i
could tolerate fennel, dill, cilantro, parsley.
also, plenty of buckwheat scattered around.

also have shasta daisy and chamomile in places.
asters grow wild, and we try to keep a few plants
going in the gardens, but they don't seem to do
well in our soil. the one's in the ditches do
much better.

will have to search for pictures of them as i
probably have seen them about...


songbird

I augment my herbs with alyssum to attract beneficial insects.

Otherwise, you may want to look at
http://www.farmerfred.com/plants_that_attract_benefi.html

For those who may have just tuned in, this part of what is called
INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

songbird wrote:
....
looks like only one life-cycle per season.

further readings...

based upon a mis-reading/misunderstanding
of the wording on the wiki site, which says:

"In Britain, it has two flight periods, April–May
and July–August, but is continuously-brooded in North
America, being one of the first butterflies to emerge
from the chrysalis in spring, flying until hard freeze
in the fall."

that last bit made me think one critter flew all
season...

after reading other sources it looks like there are
at least two (and perhaps three) flights in this area
each season.

at 200-400 eggs per critter that's a lot of worms --
even if only some of them make it to hatching and
chewing stages.

i haven't seen them flying at all the past few days
(heat sensitive?).


songbird

phorbin wrote:
songbird says...

hehe. probably some of them, but if they
don't crawl far before spinning there's not
much place for them to go in this particular
patch. if they will use the underside of rocks
then i can likely find some of them (and the
raccoons will find some of them too).

http://horticulture.oregonstate.edu/...hite-butterfly

The problem is their pupation on wild hosts.

You can get them in the garden, but the wild mustards in the district are a
little harder to find.

and here's another example of how farming in the
current form creates problems for gardeners and
organic growers...

right now the farmers spray their fields with
herbicides. the drift kills off ground cover
in the neighboring ditches, creeks, roadsides,
etc (increasing erosion and pollution) and the
wild mustards take over bare spots fairly quickly.

there is no shortage of hosts around here for
these critters.


songbird

phorbin wrote:
....
Having read another post of yours, I'd bet that your biggest helper will
probably be wasps.

If you've watched them patrol cabbages, broccoli and the like, you'll have
noticed that they are very thorough and go over every leaf top and bottom until
they find something.

it just so happened i was able to observe a
wasp carry off a cabbage worm this morning.


songbird

the picking of worms rapidly tapered
off after the first week. i find a
worm here or there now, but nothing like
before.

the second flight of butterflies is
on. i'm now finding many specks on the
bottom of the leaves and figure they
are likely to be eggs from these butterflies.

i'll keep my eyes peeled the next few days
when i can get back outside to look for eggs
again.

i'm just knocking them off onto the ground
or bottom leaves. i'm not sure how effective
that will be. perhaps much better to use sticky
tape or to brush them into soapy water. we'll
see how it goes.


songbird

In article
songbird writes:

i'm just knocking them off onto the ground
or bottom leaves. i'm not sure how effective
that will be. perhaps much better to use sticky
tape or to brush them into soapy water. we'll
see how it goes.

I just roll them between finger and thumb as I pick them.
A little caterpiller juice never hurt anyone. (At least that's my hope.)


--
Drew Lawson | And to those who lack the courage
| And say it's dangerous to try
| Well they just don't know
| That love eternal will not be denied

Drew Lawson wrote:
songbird writes:

i'm just knocking them off onto the ground
or bottom leaves. i'm not sure how effective
that will be. perhaps much better to use sticky
tape or to brush them into soapy water. we'll
see how it goes.

I just roll them between finger and thumb as I pick them.
A little caterpiller juice never hurt anyone. (At least that's my hope.)

the eggs are very tiny, i suppose i could try
to mash them with my fingers but they are pretty
small and fall off when i touch them.

the worms i drown in soapy water.


songbird

In article
songbird writes:
Drew Lawson wrote:
songbird writes:

i'm just knocking them off onto the ground
or bottom leaves. i'm not sure how effective
that will be. perhaps much better to use sticky
tape or to brush them into soapy water. we'll
see how it goes.

I just roll them between finger and thumb as I pick them.
A little caterpiller juice never hurt anyone. (At least that's my hope.)

the eggs are very tiny, i suppose i could try
to mash them with my fingers but they are pretty
small and fall off when i touch them.

If I see the eggs, I rub them a bit in hopes that they smush.
I am not sure that they do.

But at this stage of life, I don't do well spotting tiny eggs near
ground level unless I crawl. I spend enough time on my knees dealing
with the creaping thistles, I'm not doing that for cabbage worm
eggs.


Next year I may add cabbage to the broccoli. Either way, I am
strongly considering row covers for next year, as long as it is a
reusable material.

the worms i drown in soapy water.


songbird


--
Drew Lawson | I'd like to find your inner child
| and kick its little ass