On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:06:27 GMT, "SugarChile"
wrote:

Some of you may be interested in this article by Dr. Temple Grandin, an
autistic woman who has made a career of designing more humane
slaughterhouses. It's long, but fascinating.
http://www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html


We're really getting way afield .... but there's a basic
disconnect to her, to my way of thinking. It's creepy,
weird ... IMHO.

Her guiding principle seems to be: "I care about animals,
therefore I'll spend my career finding better, gentler ways
to kill them." An analogy would be a concentration camp
commandant thinking of kinder, gentler ways to kill people -
maybe gas ovens.

It seems to me that people who truly care about animals
don't spend their careers finding ways to kill them - not
even gentler ways.

I think Jan's attitude about doing their own killing is
responsible and humane. The cows will have a decent life
and a decent death. Everything's got to die sometime, but I
object to the USA's more usual way of raising and killing
livestock.

Pat

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:52:07 -0800, (Jan
Flora) wrote:


Territorial Seeds and High Altitude Seeds both sell short-season
heirlooms. I'll have to grow some and report back next year : ) There's
a gal in town who always grows Brandywine. If she could only grow one
tomato plant, that's the one she'd grow.

She is right

It's *that* good?? I'll have to try it next year, in the greenhouse : )


I'm the dissenting voice, I guess.

We grew Brandywines last year. They were wildly
unproductive - I believe I had three ripe tomatoes from four
plants! (Our climate's not ideal for tomatoes.)

I didn't think they tasted better than most other home-grown
tomatoes. Maybe ours weren't representative.

In this fairly short-season, cool summer climate I will
never try them again.

We're building a hoophouse (unheated) and I'll grow tomatoes
in it next year, also peppers and eggplants. But I
certainly won't try Brandywines in the hoophouse: space
will be at a premium and they're just too unproductive for
me. Even when they do ripen, I have read that they're not
nearly as productive as some other varieties.

Pat

I wasn't promoting her, just found her life story interesting; I have an
eclectic mind and find a lot of things interesting.

I thought it was ironic that someone with autism, who has difficulty
understanding human emotions and interactions, cared more about the
sufferings of animals than many people with presumably "normal" brain
functioning.

Personally, I don't eat red meat; I eat chicken and seafood on occasion,
when in a social situation. I grew up Pennsylvania Dutch, with an aunt and
uncle who farmed the old-fashioned way. Every year we would help them
butcher a steer and 2 or 3 hogs, and spend days making sausage, ham,
scrapple, bacon, lard, etc. I know exactly what is involved in taking a
large mammal and reducing it to dinner on the table. I agree wholeheartedly
that small, humane farming operations are far preferable to factory farming.
Perhaps the pendulum is starting to swing back in that direction.

This is not all that far afield from gardening---bone meal doesn't just
appear on the store shelves magically.

Sue

Zone 6, Southcentral PA


"Pat Meadows" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:06:27 GMT, "SugarChile"
wrote:

Some of you may be interested in this article by Dr. Temple Grandin, an
autistic woman who has made a career of designing more humane
slaughterhouses. It's long, but fascinating.
http://www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html


We're really getting way afield .... but there's a basic
disconnect to her, to my way of thinking. It's creepy,
weird ... IMHO.

Her guiding principle seems to be: "I care about animals,
therefore I'll spend my career finding better, gentler ways
to kill them." An analogy would be a concentration camp
commandant thinking of kinder, gentler ways to kill people -
maybe gas ovens.

It seems to me that people who truly care about animals
don't spend their careers finding ways to kill them - not
even gentler ways.

I think Jan's attitude about doing their own killing is
responsible and humane. The cows will have a decent life
and a decent death. Everything's got to die sometime, but I
object to the USA's more usual way of raising and killing
livestock.

Pat

(Jan Flora) wrote in message ...

Territorial Seeds and High Altitude Seeds both sell short-season
heirlooms. I'll have to grow some and report back next year : ) There's
a gal in town who always grows Brandywine. If she could only grow one
tomato plant, that's the one she'd grow.

She is right

It's *that* good?? I'll have to try it next year, in the greenhouse : )
It is the best - and I don't just say that it is from the area
(Chester/Lancaster Co, PA) :-)

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:38:05 GMT, "SugarChile"
wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly
that small, humane farming operations are far preferable to factory farming.
Perhaps the pendulum is starting to swing back in that direction.

Let's hope - and buy locally grown-food whenever we can.

This is not all that far afield from gardening---bone meal doesn't just
appear on the store shelves magically.

That's true.

Pat

Over here we simply cannot do the small scale farming required for "self
sufficency". To get 5 or 6 acres of land we talk in terms of 1/3rd
million UKP min (thats about 1/2 million US$). Many of us would very
much like to have a small holding with veggies, chickens, pigs and a
couple of cows.

Too pricey by far.

I did look at Australia and could aford 120 acre farm with quite a bit
to spare for the cost of my one bed flat/apartment!!!!

--
email farmer chris on
Please don`t use as it`s a spam haven.

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:07:06 +0100, Christopher Norton
wrote:

Over here we simply cannot do the small scale farming required for "self
sufficency". To get 5 or 6 acres of land we talk in terms of 1/3rd
million UKP min (thats about 1/2 million US$). Many of us would very
much like to have a small holding with veggies, chickens, pigs and a
couple of cows.


Even in northern Scotland? How about North Yorkshire?

Neither has a climate obviously good for farming and/or
gardening, but people do it successfully in similar
climates.

Much of the USA is colder than northern Scotland and by
quite a bit.

Pat

In article , Christopher Norton
wrote:

Over here we simply cannot do the small scale farming required for "self
sufficency". To get 5 or 6 acres of land we talk in terms of 1/3rd
million UKP min (thats about 1/2 million US$). Many of us would very
much like to have a small holding with veggies, chickens, pigs and a
couple of cows.

Too pricey by far.

I did look at Australia and could aford 120 acre farm with quite a bit
to spare for the cost of my one bed flat/apartment!!!!

Well, that explains a lot to me. A neighbor married a gal from Oxford, England.
She's in what I call her "earth muffin" phase. Grows a *huge* garden and has
a huge flock of laying hens. And she keeps bee hives. They live on 20 or
30 acres.
Victoria told me how much her mom's tiny house in Oxford is worth, and explained
that England is *full* of people. I've heard the same thing from Germans -- that
the reason they love Alaska so much is all the "empty" land up here. Germany has
a village every 5 km, and land is very dear over there, too.

Jan

In article ,
(Seamus Ma' Cleriec) wrote:

(Jan Flora) wrote in message
...

Territorial Seeds and High Altitude Seeds both sell short-season
heirlooms. I'll have to grow some and report back next year : ) There's
a gal in town who always grows Brandywine. If she could only grow one
tomato plant, that's the one she'd grow.

She is right

It's *that* good?? I'll have to try it next year, in the greenhouse : )

It is the best - and I don't just say that it is from the area
(Chester/Lancaster Co, PA) :-)

Hey, are there any families named "Flora" still in Lancaster Co? My family
lived there for awhile after they came from Germany in 1733. They are
Church of the Brethern and Mennonites.

My gardening, stock growing and horse owning tendencies are genetic : )

Jan

In article , Pat Meadows
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:52:07 -0800, (Jan
Flora) wrote:


Territorial Seeds and High Altitude Seeds both sell short-season
heirlooms. I'll have to grow some and report back next year : ) There's
a gal in town who always grows Brandywine. If she could only grow one
tomato plant, that's the one she'd grow.

She is right

It's *that* good?? I'll have to try it next year, in the greenhouse : )


I'm the dissenting voice, I guess.

We grew Brandywines last year. They were wildly
unproductive - I believe I had three ripe tomatoes from four
plants! (Our climate's not ideal for tomatoes.)

I didn't think they tasted better than most other home-grown
tomatoes. Maybe ours weren't representative.

In this fairly short-season, cool summer climate I will
never try them again.

We're building a hoophouse (unheated) and I'll grow tomatoes
in it next year, also peppers and eggplants. But I
certainly won't try Brandywines in the hoophouse: space
will be at a premium and they're just too unproductive for
me. Even when they do ripen, I have read that they're not
nearly as productive as some other varieties.

Pat

I've heard that there are many strains called "Brandywine" around.
I don't know how you would find the seed you're looking for though.
(Maybe I'll ask the gal in town to save me some seed.)

Jan

Jan Flora wrote:
In article ,
(Seamus Ma' Cleriec) wrote:


(Jan Flora) wrote in message

...

Territorial Seeds and High Altitude Seeds both sell short-season
heirlooms. I'll have to grow some and report back next year : ) There's
a gal in town who always grows Brandywine. If she could only grow one
tomato plant, that's the one she'd grow.



She is right

It's *that* good?? I'll have to try it next year, in the greenhouse : )


It is the best - and I don't just say that it is from the area
(Chester/Lancaster Co, PA) :-)


Hey, are there any families named "Flora" still in Lancaster Co? My family
lived there for awhile after they came from Germany in 1733. They are
Church of the Brethern and Mennonites.
I did a quick phone search for Flora in lancaster and 5 names came up.

My gardening, stock growing and horse owning tendencies are genetic : )
Mine too. I am proud to be PA dutch, once now

Jan

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:06:06 -0800, (Jan
Flora) wrote:


I've heard that there are many strains called "Brandywine" around.
I don't know how you would find the seed you're looking for though.
(Maybe I'll ask the gal in town to save me some seed.)


I've read this also. I don't know how to find the 'good'
strain either.

I have just joined the Seed Saver's Exchange - I'm sure lots
of Brandywines will be listed on their exchange list.

http://www.seedsavers.org/

Pat

In article ,
(Bpyboy) wrote:

I've actually become quite good with bonsai. My fiance's dad raises
orchids and bonsai professionally.

A funny story about that. I was very proud of a little trident maple
I had been raising for a couple of years. A friend of mine up in
atlanta GA arranged to have a japanese master visit and give some
workshops and prune people's trees. So I set mine down, and before I
knew what was happening, he whakced mine off to about 3" tall! I got
mad and said "what the f)(*$## do you thinkyou're doing?" and he
said, "when you are as old as me, it will be beautiful"

The guy was like 100 years old at least. That was pretty zen, and
now I have a tree that looks like crap (I still have about 80 years
to go?)!

john


Oh dear! I did not mean to open up a festering wound. But I have to
admit that is pretty funny. My DH started his bonsai habit when he was
in school and, although he did not keep it up, he learned a lot about
plants. We still have tons of copper wire from those days but the
plants are long gone (a sad story). He favored Zelcovas.

You know, that wire, if it's the imported stuff, the copper coated aluminum
that is really soft and easy to use, is getting quite expensive.

And another thing I learned. DO NOT use your father in law's concave bonsai
cutter as a wire cutter!

Anyways, I have some REALLY nice maples going now. I grew them to about 15'
tall, then hacked them off to about 2', then back to 1' the following year.
About half of them died in the process, but after root pruning and potting,
they have huge trunks. Once the wounds heal up, they should be wonderful.

I think some of the photos are still up on the website that I have not been
maintaining lately at

www.orchidsbymandw.com