On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:55:32 -0500, Peter H wrote:


Alan Connor wrote:

You sound like an animal-product addict that is trying to convince

Actually, I eat *everything* to the chagrin of my waistline - 38 &
should be 35. Don't dislike vegetable material at all - some of my best
friends are turnips & peas, not to mention fiddlehead greens & spinach
tossed w/ mushrooms, oil & garlic. I just think those who rabidly try to
remove the cow from the grass-cow-omnivore chain are fooling themselves
& missing out on some nutritious eating.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams



The above being a statement that only an animal-food addict would make.

I rest my case :-)

I know a LOT of 'vegans' who have been herbivores for decades, and I'll
bet we are a LOT healthier as a group than you and your animal-food addict
friends.

The last time I went to a doctor was about 1973, and I don't take any
non-recreational drugs EVER.

We are 'vegans' because it is a lot less work and a lot easier on the
environment. The personal health aspect is just a nice bonus.

You didn't go to madcowboy.com, did you?

Wouldn't want to read any science from people not in the pockets of animal-
food addicts, I guess....

I wouldn't tell anyone that a person couldn't be healthy eating just animal
products, so why do you feel the need to tell people that they can't be
healthy eating just plants?

Our teeth and digestive tracts bear a much greater resemblence to those of
herbivores than those of carnivores, so I would actually be able to make a
better case for that falsehood than you for yours....



AC

"Alan Connor" wrote in message
nk.net...
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:55:32 -0500, Peter H wrote:


Alan Connor wrote:

You sound like an animal-product addict that is trying to convince

Actually, I eat *everything* to the chagrin of my waistline - 38 &
should be 35. Don't dislike vegetable material at all - some of my best
friends are turnips & peas, not to mention fiddlehead greens & spinach
tossed w/ mushrooms, oil & garlic. I just think those who rabidly try to
remove the cow from the grass-cow-omnivore chain are fooling themselves
& missing out on some nutritious eating.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams



The above being a statement that only an animal-food addict would make.

I rest my case :-)

I know a LOT of 'vegans' who have been herbivores for decades, and I'll
bet we are a LOT healthier as a group than you and your animal-food addict
friends.

The last time I went to a doctor was about 1973, and I don't take any
non-recreational drugs EVER.
=====================
Well that explains your terminal ignorance, you've recreated away all but
about 2 braincells..



We are 'vegans' because it is a lot less work and a lot easier on the
environment.
=======================
LIAR...


Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animals die.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...feFactSheet.pd
f
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/


http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.htm




http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm



Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/


To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





The personal health aspect is just a nice bonus.

You didn't go to madcowboy.com, did you?

Wouldn't want to read any science from people not in the pockets of
animal-
food addicts, I guess....

I wouldn't tell anyone that a person couldn't be healthy eating just
animal
products, so why do you feel the need to tell people that they can't be
healthy eating just plants?

Our teeth and digestive tracts bear a much greater resemblence to those of
herbivores than those of carnivores, so I would actually be able to make a
better case for that falsehood than you for yours....



AC

Alan Connor wrote:

-
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams





The above being a statement that only an animal-food addict would make.




The "above statement" is one of a set of 45-50 tag lines that get
changed every week or so; just happens to be up this week. It's a quote
from (then General) Clayton Abrams, upon being asked to describe his
technique for dealing with a massive problem such as the Viet-Cong in
Viet Nam. Thus the "animal" you thought you found in the "above
statement" is only a metaphor and has neither tusks nor substance. The
conincidence of the statement's showing up just during the time when I
happend to respond to a thread concerning food items is so tenuous that
trying to draw any conclusions, such as you seem to have done, is
roughly akin to eating soup with a fork.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams

rick etter wrote:



A valiant effort, but trying to take the first step of offering a
variety of sources to such a discussion is bound to result in refusal,
nay, denial. Rather like teaching Mikey how to ride a bicycle.

Pete H

P.s., I'm due to change my tag line any day now & who knows what will
come out. Mebbe fish. Mebbe thin air.

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:05:58 -0500, Peter H wrote:


Alan Connor wrote:

-
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams





The above being a statement that only an animal-food addict would make.




The "above statement" is one of a set of 45-50 tag lines that get
changed every week or so; just happens to be up this week. It's a quote
from (then General) Clayton Abrams, upon being asked to describe his
technique for dealing with a massive problem such as the Viet-Cong in
Viet Nam. Thus the "animal" you thought you found in the "above
statement" is only a metaphor and has neither tusks nor substance. The
conincidence of the statement's showing up just during the time when I
happend to respond to a thread concerning food items is so tenuous that
trying to draw any conclusions, such as you seem to have done, is
roughly akin to eating soup with a fork.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams




I was referring to the statement you made in your post:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:55:32 -0500, Peter H wrote:


Alan Connor wrote:

You sound like an animal-product addict that is trying to convince

Actually, I eat *everything* to the chagrin of my waistline - 38 &
should be 35. Don't dislike vegetable material at all - some of my best
friends are turnips & peas, not to mention fiddlehead greens & spinach
tossed w/ mushrooms, oil & garlic. I just think those who rabidly try to
remove the cow from the grass-cow-omnivore chain are fooling themselves
& missing out on some nutritious eating.

Pete H


Which I'm pretty sure you know already.

Don't want to face the fact that your dietstyle is just habit and
has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever?

That's okay by me. Your loss.

madcowboy.com for those who want to learn.


AC

In article . net,
says...

space saving snip

And above all, don't have anything to do with any of the people that look
upon the gun as their primary survival tool.

Real survivalists look upon their BRAIN as their
primary survival tool...

YMMV

If you even let them know where your Shelter is, you will be sorry, because
they will be forced by their own stupidity and ignorance to become brigands
in no time, if they even live that long.

That doesn't pharse well.

I think you're saying that letting people know where you live might result
in
unfriendly visits.

Not letting them know where you are will prevent friendly visits, too. Or
people being able to find you if you need help...

The other group of people here to avoid, and the two often overlap, are
the ones that seem to think that they can live just like the American
Pioneers did in the MOVIES.

PBS had a series a while ago - sort of their answer to SURVIVOR -
where they took three modern families, gave them only the tools
and supplies that pioneers would have had, and plopped them down
in the wilderness to build cabins, raise animals, etc.

They did OK. Even though they weren't allowed to hunt.

Now, if - like certain people I could name - you seem to be
basing your survival plans on some sort of fantasy of living
in perfect synch with nature like American Indians do in
historically inaccurate fiction and American mythology...

Then you are in DEEP doo-doo.

Sorry. But the North American continent is just not what it was back then.
There are 100X as many people and 1/100th of the unspoiled wilderness.

More rats, squirrels, dogs, cats, and birds, though.

And PLENTY of insects.

And most of them have guns but no other survival skills.

Actually, most people who have guns have considerable survival
skills. Whether it's being able to hunt in the wilderness, or avoid
being snuffed on mean city streets, or enforce the law, or defend
this country from enemies foreign and domestic; being a gun
owner HARDLY is a sign of lack of learning ability.

Which leaves competing for the rapidly dwindling populations of large
game animals and piracy their only means of survival.

Farming, gathering of wild edible plants, fishing, foraging
for small animals / insects / worms, all being impossible,
I take it.

When they run out of canned goods they are going to be dangerous as ****,
or sooner if they don't have any stores.

alanc...

The End of the World as We Know It is not going to happen. It's
an intellectual exercise to imagine what things will be like afterwards.
It is NOT a reason not to prepare for other, more limited but MUCH
more probable dangers like fire, flood, hazmat spill, massive snow-
storm / freezing temperatures / prolonged power outage, etc. And it
is foolish to castigate and insult people because they don't subscribe
to your view of things but instead actually PREPARE for disaster instead
of just talking about it.

FW. Who thinks you might be happier moving over to the Patriot
Network website and checking out the GUNkid forum. You and GK
are each other's worst nightmare AND opposite sides of the same
coin, and I'm sure the two of you would be very agitated together...

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:28:34 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:


On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:40:13 -0500, Peter H wrote:


Particularly the China Project of Dr. T. Colin Campbell


AC

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams



--
Don't eat elephants. They are an endangered species.



NUT SEDGE - Definition by HyperDictionary.com
.... Definition: [n] a widely distributed perennial sedge having small edible
nutlike
tubers. Synonyms: Cyperus rotundus, nut grass, nutgrass, nutsedge. ...
www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/nut+sedge - 5k - Cached - Similar pages



AC

Alan Connor wrote:

Don't want to face the fact that your dietstyle is just habit and
has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever?




Nutrition: the act or process of nourishing or being nourished; specif.
the sum of the processes by which an animal or plant takes in and
utilizes food substances. (Merriam Webbster's Collegiate Dictionary,
10th Ed.

Since you know absolutely nothing of my diet other than a very few items
out of a great many, you are not qualified to pass judgemnent on it.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams

Alan Connor wrote:

Don't want to face the fact that your dietstyle is just habit and
has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever?




Nutrition: the act or process of nourishing or being nourished; specif.
the sum of the processes by which an animal or plant takes in and
utilizes food substances. (Merriam Webbster's Collegiate Dictionary,
10th Ed.

Since you know absolutely nothing of my diet other than a very few items
out of a great many, you are not qualified to pass judgemnent on it.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams

"Alan Connor" wrote in message
nk.net...
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:05:58 -0500, Peter H wrote:



Don't want to face the fact that your dietstyle is just habit and
has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever?

That's okay by me. Your loss.

AC


It has something to do with taste. Mmmmm meat, good meat.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 07:50:05 -0600, The moderator wrote:



"Alan Connor" wrote in message
nk.net...
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:05:58 -0500, Peter H wrote:



Don't want to face the fact that your dietstyle is just habit and
has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever?

That's okay by me. Your loss.

AC


It has something to do with taste. Mmmmm meat, good meat.



To YOU it tastes good. Even the thought of it makes ME a little ill.

I can no longer digest animal foods either. The human body doesn't do

this easily, and gladly loses the ability after 6 months to a year of

abstaining from animal foods.

There are people around the world that eat all sorts of things, from insects

to slugs and call them "delicious" and "delicacies".

So your point is exactly what?


AC

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 05:51:28 -0500, Peter H wrote:


Alan Connor wrote:

Don't want to face the fact that your dietstyle is just habit and
has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever?




Nutrition: the act or process of nourishing or being nourished; specif.
the sum of the processes by which an animal or plant takes in and
utilizes food substances. (Merriam Webbster's Collegiate Dictionary,
10th Ed.

Since you know absolutely nothing of my diet other than a very few items
out of a great many, you are not qualified to pass judgemnent on it.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams



I don't get that at all...

When the system breaks down, there are certain exigencies that will have to
be dealt with:


There are a LOT of people on a continent that has very little wilderness
left in regions that are realistically habitable.

Hunting, fishing, and trapping territories will be jealously and homicidally
guarded.

Even then, they all take a LOT of work and energy and time.

As does ranching of any kind.

There will be brigands and refugees everywhere, so maintaining a low profile
will be a matter of life and death.

Because of these factors, a sensible person will choose a plant based lifestyle.

A 'vegan' can live off of about 1/4 of an acre, including veggies, grains,
sugar plants, oilseeds, bush-cane-vine fruits, and fiber plants.

If you use no-till gardening techniques and dry and 'root-cellar' your stored
foods, very little work is involved.

And not much water, which is a critical consideration.

The gardens can be spread out in irregular patches that look like natural
plant communities from more than a few yards away, rendering them invisible
for all intents and purposes.

There are also some 1800 species of wild edible plants in North America,
and if you can live off of them, you can live off the land AS you travel,
which could save your life if you have to pull up stakes and run for it.

And all you will have to take with you is SEEDS. Try running with cows and
chickens.....

Like it or not, being skilled at camoflauge and being mobile are the two
things that anyone who hopes to survive long after the Collapse must have.


AC

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:46:47 -0500, Peter H wrote:


Alan Connor wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 05:51:28 -0500, Peter H wrote:

Alan Connor wrote:

Don't want to face the fact that your dietstyle is just habit and
has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever

I don't get that at all...



Your claim about my "dietstyle." Of the wide variety of food items I
eat, you know only a very few - and all that have been mentioned were
vegetable with the possible exception of mushrooms. My "dietstyle," as
you call it, just might be identical with your own.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams



I could have sworn you said you ate animal products. I don't.


AC

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:49:43 -0500, Peter H wrote:


Alan Connor wrote:

So your point is exactly what?



I might suggest that this particular thread seems to have no real point
except to point out "de gustibus non disputandem est."

Pete H

--
We are all of one nation, all of one creed
We are all out of nature, all of one seed
I. Bairnson



The thread is entitled: Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?

The amount of land a consumer of animal products needs is RADICALLY more

than an herbivorous person needs.


A great deal more work is required, and much more water.

Far more building materials.


More tools.


I'd call that pretty damned relevant.


We ARE talking about surviving in a world without money and stores and
vehicles, after all.

ANYTHING you can do to cut down on the workload is not only smart, but may
very well mean the difference between surviving and not-surviving.

May I suggest that before responding to any posts here, that you take a
look at the name of the newsgroup and the title of the thread?

Just a wee thought.....



AC

Alan Connor wrote:

You sound like an animal-product addict that is trying to convince

Actually, I eat *everything* to the chagrin of my waistline - 38 &
should be 35. Don't dislike vegetable material at all - some of my best
friends are turnips & peas, not to mention fiddlehead greens & spinach
tossed w/ mushrooms, oil & garlic. I just think those who rabidly try to
remove the cow from the grass-cow-omnivore chain are fooling themselves
& missing out on some nutritious eating.

Pete H

--
When eating an elephant
take one bite at a time.
C. Abrams