First off, let me know if I'm in the wrong place, please: the posts
I've seen here are mostly outdoor and fruit/vegetable-gardening, and
I'm doing (as the subject lines imply) herbs in indoor planters. i
live in an apartment, so outdoor transplantation isn't viable, else I
probably would.

Another confession: I've come into this rather cold, knowing little at
all about gardening, so a lot of what I've done up until now seems
absurd to serious gardeners, I'm sure.

Here's my setup: I have several pots sitting on my window-sill. I'm
growing lemon balm, sweet basil, Genovese basil, and spearmint from
seed. The soil is Miracle-Gro Moisture-Control; the window is a
west-facing second-story in a suburban community (so it gets pretty
much unobstructed light in the afternoon). I water the plants when the
soil becomes perceptibly dry, or when the plants become perceptibly
wilted -- I use about a half teaspoon of Miracle-Gro all-purpose plant
food per gallon of water.

And here is the problem: in terms of color and not dying, the plants
seem to be doing OK. However, the actual leaves are flavorless --
especially on the mint; the basil has a mild flavor and detectably
basil-like odor; the lemon balm has both full flavor and odor, and the
stems on the sweet basil and mint seem to be growing woody. In
addition, the mint has rather sparse foliage -- there's a lot of stem
between leaves,and the leaves are starting to curl and dry up around
the edges. Also, none of my herbs are showing buds or flowers, which
I'd rather expected.

It seems I'm missing something crucial in my plant-care here. What is
it? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| D. Jacob Wildstrom -- Math monkey and freelance thinker |
| Graduate Student, University of California at San Diego |
| "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems." -Alfred Renyi |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily endorsed by the
University of California or math department thereof.

il 26 May 2004 11:36:37 +1200, "Loki" ha scritto:

Another confession: I've come into this rather cold, knowing little at
all about gardening, so a lot of what I've done up until now seems
absurd to serious gardeners, I'm sure.

Here's my setup: I have several pots sitting on my window-sill. I'm
growing lemon balm, sweet basil, Genovese basil, and spearmint from
seed. The soil is Miracle-Gro Moisture-Control; the window is a
west-facing second-story in a suburban community (so it gets pretty
much unobstructed light in the afternoon). I water the plants when the
soil becomes perceptibly dry, or when the plants become perceptibly
wilted -- I use about a half teaspoon of Miracle-Gro all-purpose plant
food per gallon of water.

And here is the problem: in terms of color and not dying, the plants
seem to be doing OK. However, the actual leaves are flavorless --
especially on the mint; the basil has a mild flavor and detectably
basil-like odor; the lemon balm has both full flavor and odor, and the
stems on the sweet basil and mint seem to be growing woody. In
addition, the mint has rather sparse foliage -- there's a lot of stem
between leaves,and the leaves are starting to curl and dry up around
the edges. Also, none of my herbs are showing buds or flowers, which
I'd rather expected.

It seems I'm missing something crucial in my plant-care here. What is
it? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Basil stems do grow woody and mint too for that matter. I wouldn't
let them wilt all that often, they don't need near death experiences
to improve flavour. They need to be watered more often. Only the top
bit of soil gets dry, not the whole pot.

Dry and curly? Not enough water for sure, more fertiliser and bigger
pots seem to be needed, that way they don't dry out so quick. Is that
the correct ratio of fertiliser to water? seems a little on the light
side, but I don't know the brand. In summer I had to water my basil
every day. The flowers form later in summer. And you don't want basil
to flower, you want the leaves after all.

How big are those pots? I get better plants in pots like at least 8"
across at the top. I do have some small leafed basil in smaller pots
but they are also a smaller plant. My Yates Thrive liquid feed wants
5 ml per 2 litres water every week.

Key: 1 US gallon = 3.775 litres
1 imperial gal = 4.545 litres
1 teaspoon = 5 ml

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Tue, 25 May 2004 23:05:21 +0000 (UTC),
(Jake Wildstrom) ha scritto:

First off, let me know if I'm in the wrong place, please: the posts
I've seen here are mostly outdoor and fruit/vegetable-gardening, and
I'm doing (as the subject lines imply) herbs in indoor planters. i
live in an apartment, so outdoor transplantation isn't viable, else I
probably would.

Another confession: I've come into this rather cold, knowing little at
all about gardening, so a lot of what I've done up until now seems
absurd to serious gardeners, I'm sure.

Here's my setup: I have several pots sitting on my window-sill. I'm
growing lemon balm, sweet basil, Genovese basil, and spearmint from
seed. The soil is Miracle-Gro Moisture-Control; the window is a
west-facing second-story in a suburban community (so it gets pretty
much unobstructed light in the afternoon). I water the plants when the
soil becomes perceptibly dry, or when the plants become perceptibly
wilted -- I use about a half teaspoon of Miracle-Gro all-purpose plant
food per gallon of water.

And here is the problem: in terms of color and not dying, the plants
seem to be doing OK. However, the actual leaves are flavorless --
especially on the mint; the basil has a mild flavor and detectably
basil-like odor; the lemon balm has both full flavor and odor, and the
stems on the sweet basil and mint seem to be growing woody. In
addition, the mint has rather sparse foliage -- there's a lot of stem
between leaves,and the leaves are starting to curl and dry up around
the edges. Also, none of my herbs are showing buds or flowers, which
I'd rather expected.

It seems I'm missing something crucial in my plant-care here. What is
it? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Basil stems do grow woody and mint too for that matter. I wouldn't
let them wilt all that often, they don't need near death experiences
to improve flavour. They need to be watered more often. Only the top
bit of soil gets dry, not the whole pot.

Dry and curly? Not enough water for sure, more fertiliser and bigger
pots seem to be needed, that way they don't dry out so quick. Is that
the correct ratio of fertiliser to water? seems a little on the light
side, but I don't know the brand. In summer I had to water my basil
every day. The flowers form later in summer. And you don't want basil
to flower, you want the leaves after all.

How big are those pots? I get better plants in pots like at least 8"
across at the top. I do have some small leafed basil in smaller pots
but they are also a smaller plant. My Yates Thrive liquid feed wants
5 ml per 2 litres water every week.

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

From what I have heard, herbs need to be stressed a little for full flavor.
Dont feed or water them too well.

"Jake Wildstrom" wrote in message
...
First off, let me know if I'm in the wrong place, please: the posts
I've seen here are mostly outdoor and fruit/vegetable-gardening, and
I'm doing (as the subject lines imply) herbs in indoor planters. i
live in an apartment, so outdoor transplantation isn't viable, else I
probably would.

Another confession: I've come into this rather cold, knowing little at
all about gardening, so a lot of what I've done up until now seems
absurd to serious gardeners, I'm sure.

Here's my setup: I have several pots sitting on my window-sill. I'm
growing lemon balm, sweet basil, Genovese basil, and spearmint from
seed. The soil is Miracle-Gro Moisture-Control; the window is a
west-facing second-story in a suburban community (so it gets pretty
much unobstructed light in the afternoon). I water the plants when the
soil becomes perceptibly dry, or when the plants become perceptibly
wilted -- I use about a half teaspoon of Miracle-Gro all-purpose plant
food per gallon of water.

And here is the problem: in terms of color and not dying, the plants
seem to be doing OK. However, the actual leaves are flavorless --
especially on the mint; the basil has a mild flavor and detectably
basil-like odor; the lemon balm has both full flavor and odor, and the
stems on the sweet basil and mint seem to be growing woody. In
addition, the mint has rather sparse foliage -- there's a lot of stem
between leaves,and the leaves are starting to curl and dry up around
the edges. Also, none of my herbs are showing buds or flowers, which
I'd rather expected.

It seems I'm missing something crucial in my plant-care here. What is
it? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| D. Jacob Wildstrom -- Math monkey and freelance thinker |
| Graduate Student, University of California at San Diego |
| "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems." -Alfred Renyi |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily endorsed by the
University of California or math department thereof.

On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:05:21 +0000 (UTC),
(Jake Wildstrom) wrote:


-- I use about a half teaspoon of Miracle-Gro all-purpose plant
food per gallon of water.


Too much fertilizer. Waaaaaay too much fertilizer!

You're already using Miracle Gro potting soil and it has
fertilizer in it. If you keep putting more in the water you're
going to burn the plants up. Besides, herbs don't like that
much fertilizer, they like rather spartan conditions.

How hot do the plants get? Too much heat from the sunlight
warming the pots can burn off the essential oils that give herbs
their flavor. It's already so hot around here that I only harvest
herbs in the early morning.

Penelope


--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

First off, let me know if I'm in the wrong place, please: the posts
I've seen here are mostly outdoor and fruit/vegetable-gardening, and
I'm doing (as the subject lines imply) herbs in indoor planters. i
live in an apartment, so outdoor transplantation isn't viable, else I
probably would.
snip
In my experience, basil tends to respond to less rather than more
torture. I've grown it indoors and out and the indoors plants have a
superior, mild taste. The outdoor plants, which are subjected to
greater temp and moisture extremes (invariably) can produce leaves
with a less than optimum flavor, verging on straw-like.

My experience with this is not comprehensive and only applies to
standard sweet basil, but thought I would share this observation.

On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:05:21 +0000 (UTC),
(Jake Wildstrom) wrote:

First off, let me know if I'm in the wrong place, please: the posts
I've seen here are mostly outdoor and fruit/vegetable-gardening, and
I'm doing (as the subject lines imply) herbs in indoor planters. i
live in an apartment, so outdoor transplantation isn't viable, else I
probably would.

Doesn't bother me if you're asking about growing stuff indoor, some
might, but ignore 'em. ;-) Most of us have grown plants inside too.

Another confession: I've come into this rather cold, knowing little at
all about gardening, so a lot of what I've done up until now seems
absurd to serious gardeners, I'm sure.

Everyone starts somewhere!

Here's my setup: I have several pots sitting on my window-sill. I'm
growing lemon balm, sweet basil, Genovese basil, and spearmint from
seed. The soil is Miracle-Gro Moisture-Control; the window is a
west-facing second-story in a suburban community (so it gets pretty
much unobstructed light in the afternoon). I water the plants when the
soil becomes perceptibly dry, or when the plants become perceptibly
wilted -- I use about a half teaspoon of Miracle-Gro all-purpose plant
food per gallon of water.

I generally cut the fertilizer to 1/4 or 1/8th.. depending on how
often I had to water plants. If you water some of them frequently,
then I'd dilute it more than with those that need more water, and all
herbs do not need the same water/fertilzer conditions. Basil is a
quick growing juicy leaved and stemmed annual that will require more
water than something like thyme or oregano.. I know those aren't in
your list, but just for comparison. Lemon balm can take some pretty
dry conditions and spreads and are tough plants as I all too well
know, it's all over my yard! But more on that later.

And here is the problem: in terms of color and not dying, the plants
seem to be doing OK. However, the actual leaves are flavorless --
especially on the mint; the basil has a mild flavor and detectably
basil-like odor; the lemon balm has both full flavor and odor, and the
stems on the sweet basil and mint seem to be growing woody. In
addition, the mint has rather sparse foliage -- there's a lot of stem
between leaves,and the leaves are starting to curl and dry up around
the edges. Also, none of my herbs are showing buds or flowers, which
I'd rather expected.

They're not getting enough light. Insufficient light causes
etoliation..where the plant increases the length of the stems between
the leaves in hopes of reaching light (think of those forgotten
potatoes growing long white stems looking for light as an extreme
example), and often chlorosis accompanies it..yellowing or lightening
of the plants' leaf color...pale green instead of deep green leaves,
or in the case of the lemon balm a bright green with shiny leaves.

If you have a south facing window, they may be happier there. If not,
supplementing their light with a florescent light set up with plant
lights. They have plant spot lights, incandescent, but they put out a
great deal of heat along with the light. You can find florescent set
ups in many lengths or plant lights in different lengths that may fit
something you already have. I wouldn't put them in ceiling fixtures
so much though as they need to be pretty close to the plants the
closer the better to give them enough light to grow sturdy stocky
plants rather than spindly growth that it sounds like you're
describing. You can grow plants anywhere in the house as long as you
can provide them with enough light, but most people do not have enough
light, even in windows alone...and when you do grow plants relying on
windows, you should rotate the plants 1/4 turn a day so it gets more
even light around the plant.

Garden plants generally want 6 hours of light a day, and many herbs we
like and grow are from sunny rocky hillsides.. those thyme and oregano
plants I know you don't have. Others, still like sun, whether they're
mints, or basil.

Flavor wise, the plants need that sunshine and balanced nutrients to
grow well, if they're not getting enough light to grow well, they
can't USE the nutrients you give them. Without proper lighting, what
would be a "normal" amount of water can drown a plant as it cannot
utilize it without the light to fuel the photosynthetic process, can't
kick the chloroplasts and mitochondria in gear to use those raw
materials you're providing.

So flavor won't be there without the light allowing them to grow.

Ditto on flowers. But, the optimal time to harvest plants is just
before they bloom.

Spearmint is one of the mildest mints, so it's not going to be really
strong no matter what. (also, if someone tries to sell you peppermint
seed.. laugh and don't buy it..peppermint is started from cuttings, or
divisions..vegetatively. All the garden books I've read which
mentioned it says there are no viable peppermint seeds). But,
peppermint of the sort grown around here for extract making, is smooth
leaved, no hairs, dark dark green with a bit of a maroon cast around
the edges and under sides of leaves and on stems. They are VERY
strongly flavored!! WOO!

I'd suggest either providing what you have with more light. Or if you
started them all from seed, and have some left, plant some more, put
them under a florescent grow light ..keeping the light about 2" above
the pots, and as the plants grow..about 2" from the growing point of
the plants. After the plants get oh, 6" or so tall and are looking
stocky and healthy, pinch out the growing tips, that will encourage
the plant to form side shoots, and they'll grow bushier.

And the last thing.. fresh herbs are not as potent as dried, so you
generally use more fresh herb than dry. Experiment once you get some
stocky happy plants going. You can grow them in an unused area, or
basement, and bring them up and rotate them in the windows, when they
start showing signs of getting pale needing light, put them back under
the grow lights and bring up another!

Good luck!

Janice

It seems I'm missing something crucial in my plant-care here. What is
it? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| D. Jacob Wildstrom -- Math monkey and freelance thinker |
| Graduate Student, University of California at San Diego |
| "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems." -Alfred Renyi |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily endorsed by the
University of California or math department thereof.

Hi Jake Wildstrom,

First off, let me know if I'm in the wrong place, please: the posts
I've seen here are mostly outdoor and fruit/vegetable-gardening,
and
I'm doing (as the subject lines imply) herbs in indoor planters. i
live in an apartment, so outdoor transplantation isn't viable, else
I
probably would.

Don't worry. You are in the right group.

By UseNet hierarchy:

rec.gardens

indoor planters are container gardenning.

edible

herbs are edible.

Another confession: I've come into this rather cold, knowing little
at
all about gardening, so a lot of what I've done up until now seems
absurd to serious gardeners, I'm sure.

We don't try, we don't know. Most of the testing I do on gardenning
up to now are a total failure of stupid thing. But I do learn from
it.

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

(Jake Wildstrom) wrote in message ...
First off, let me know if I'm in the wrong place, please: the posts
I've seen here are mostly outdoor and fruit/vegetable-gardening, and
I'm doing (as the subject lines imply) herbs in indoor planters. i
live in an apartment, so outdoor transplantation isn't viable, else I
probably would.

Here's my setup: I have several pots sitting on my window-sill. I'm
growing lemon balm, sweet basil, Genovese basil, and spearmint from
seed. The soil is Miracle-Gro Moisture-Control; the window is a
west-facing second-story in a suburban community (so it gets pretty
much unobstructed light in the afternoon). I water the plants when the
soil becomes perceptibly dry, or when the plants become perceptibly
wilted -- I use about a half teaspoon of Miracle-Gro all-purpose plant
food per gallon of water.
And here is the problem: in terms of color and not dying, the plants
seem to be doing OK. However, the actual leaves are flavorless --
especially on the mint; the basil has a mild flavor and detectably
basil-like odor; the lemon balm has both full flavor and odor, and the
stems on the sweet basil and mint seem to be growing woody. In
addition, the mint has rather sparse foliage -- there's a lot of stem
between leaves,and the leaves are starting to curl and dry up around
the edges. Also, none of my herbs are showing buds or flowers, which
I'd rather expected.

It seems I'm missing something crucial in my plant-care here. What is
it? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Did you start growing the herbs indoors then move then outside into
the hot sun? they could be suffering from shock.
anyway I would trade in the lemon balm for some lemon verbena, gives
you a better lemon flavour.
I have some herbs growing in 2 gallon pots this season that are doing
well all around, they seem to have good growth and flavour. I have old
english thyme, orange thyme, rosemary, lemon verbena, outside in my
garden I have winter green, catnip, spearmint, oregano, lemon balm,
garlic chives, dill, anise, etc.
They are all being watered generously, and are growing fast. Could
also be that you used too much ferts like another poster mentioned.

On Wed, 26 May 2004 21:09:40 -0600, Janice
wrote:

On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:05:21 +0000 (UTC),
(Jake Wildstrom) wrote:

First off, let me know if I'm in the wrong place, please: the posts
I've seen here are mostly outdoor and fruit/vegetable-gardening, and
I'm doing (as the subject lines imply) herbs in indoor planters. i
live in an apartment, so outdoor transplantation isn't viable, else I
probably would.

Doesn't bother me if you're asking about growing stuff indoor, some
might, but ignore 'em. ;-) Most of us have grown plants inside too.
snip
Janice--
I believe I'm correct in assuming that basil is generally not a
hybrid?
DaveH

Thanks to all who responded. The comment that they're probably getting
insufficient light seems particularly to the point: I guess I'll have
to get some supplemental lighting in (I do not, alas, have a
south-facing window in the apartment). I'm a bit worried about the
contradictory messages with respect to fertilizer: what signs other
than flavorlessness can I use to determine if I'm over- or
under-feeding them?

As for switching the balm for verbena -- hmm, maybe so. I've found the
balm to have a pleasantly citric flavor, but I've never tried to grow
verbena. I'm loathe to stop growing the one perennial I have which
seems to be doing what it's supposed to, though.

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| D. Jacob Wildstrom -- Math monkey and freelance thinker |
| Graduate Student, University of California at San Diego |
| "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems." -Alfred Renyi |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily endorsed by the
University of California or math department thereof.

writes:

As for switching the balm for verbena -- hmm, maybe so. I've found the
balm to have a pleasantly citric flavor, but I've never tried to grow
verbena. I'm loathe to stop growing the one perennial I have which
seems to be doing what it's supposed to, though.

Keep your lemon balm and enjoy it. Lemon verbena is more of a shrub
compared to lemon balm; it grows to four feet tall (or more) and has a
woody stem, more like a small tree-like shrub. It would do better as a
potted plant than in a box with other herbs. At least that's the way mine
is.

My attitude is to keep doing what works. If the lemon balm is growing
well, no need to replace it, just add another plant.

Glenna

il Fri, 28 May 2004 04:33:28 +0000 (UTC),
(Jake Wildstrom) ha scritto:

Thanks to all who responded. The comment that they're probably getting
insufficient light seems particularly to the point: I guess I'll have
to get some supplemental lighting in (I do not, alas, have a
south-facing window in the apartment). I'm a bit worried about the
contradictory messages with respect to fertilizer: what signs other
than flavorlessness can I use to determine if I'm over- or
under-feeding them?

If it was a clay pot, unglazed. you could tell it was too much
fertilizer by all the salts that would congregate on its surface. I
guess one thing we don't know is, is your water hard or soft?

If you follow the instructions on your packet your fertilizer should
be ok, but leave it off for a few weeks if you think you've overdone
it. The leaves can go yellow from lack of nitrogen, they can also
brown at the edges.

Or as my "The houseplant expert" books says: "If edges are yellow or
brown, the possible causes are many and varied - overwatering,
underwatering, too little light, too much sun, too little heat, too
much heat, overfeeding, dry air or draughts." (!!!)

heheh good luck!

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:53:22 -0400, DaveH
wrote:


I believe I'm correct in assuming that basil is generally not a
hybrid?

I don't know of any, 'though of course there must be *some*, herbs
that have been hybridized. There are certainly many different
varieties of basil, but I've never heard of anyone saving seed and
having something significantly different come up.

"Glenna Rose" wrote in message
news:fc.003d094101c72b713b9aca006f259c95.1c72b82@p mug.org...
writes:

As for switching the balm for verbena -- hmm, maybe so. I've found the
balm to have a pleasantly citric flavor, but I've never tried to grow
verbena. I'm loathe to stop growing the one perennial I have which
seems to be doing what it's supposed to, though.

Keep your lemon balm and enjoy it. Lemon verbena is more of a shrub
compared to lemon balm; it grows to four feet tall (or more) and has a
woody stem, more like a small tree-like shrub. It would do better as a
potted plant than in a box with other herbs. At least that's the way mine
is.

My attitude is to keep doing what works. If the lemon balm is growing
well, no need to replace it, just add another plant.

I've been growing lemon balm for a couple of years now - I planted it from
seed in a window box type pot and off it went. It even seems to be
everygreen - in the winter it was quiet but still greenish (I'm in the UK).

However, I'm intrigued about what another poster said about too much ferts
being obvious by the salts accumulating on the unglazed pot. I wonder about
this cos - here goes, don't freak you guys - many of my pots that I grow
stuff in (outside in the garden) are graves for my pet rats. This way I get
to take the lost ones with me if I move house (which I have done many times
over the last ten years). Pretty much all of what I grow (both herbs and
flowers) seem to do very well. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this. I
don't use any other sort of fertilser (except abit of horse cack now and
them) on the pots at all.

One of my pots (has dill in it) has white stuff that looks to my untrained
eye like it could be salts on it. I don't think the rat inside the pot was
particularly salty though. ;-)

So - how might this affect me dill ? And why one rat pot and not any others
(I must have about thirty pots all told). And another thing - I have never
ever considered the fact that herbs grown in pots that have little dead
bodies in might not be good to eat. I have not suffered from eating the
basil and parsley and so on that I have been growing for the past few years
anyway. But it's just occured to me that it might not be a good idea to grow
edibles in them. Thoughts ?

They are probably very dessicated little bodies, cos I have a wood chest
that I put the pots in when they are newly used in order to let the bodies
dry out and thus not be so attractive to foxes, who would like to dig
freshly smelly things up IME. I also wire the top of the pots with chicken
wire to prevent them being violated.

Please don't freak you guys - this way my little ones carry on being
beautiful for years after they die.


Rachael