In article ,
"Rachael of Nex, the Wiccan Rat" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Rachael of Nex, the Wiccan Rat" wrote:


I have two huge GSDs and a springer spaniel, so lots of dog crap here
too. I
wish I could find something fool proof to do with it - particularly this
week as some nerk has stolen my wheelie bin !! (I'm in the UK - for
anyone
who doesn't know what a wheelie bin is - it's a big trash bin you set
outside every week with your trash bags in it to be put in the garbage
lorry. I expect it will be a week or so before the council will bring me
a
new one). So my poor little temporary dog shite bin in the back garden
is
full to overflowing ....ick.



Rachael



Composting it for flower gardens and other inedibles is acceptable. :-)

Have you seen one of these?

http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/produc...1EETKN8AQ8GR7A
V1W4KJB1LL79X29

This is created specifically for dealing with dog waste.
I'm seriously considering getting one. ;-)

The link is causing me some difficulty but a poke around on the site reveals
something called a Dog Dooley - is that what you mean ?

Yes, that is what the link was pointing to. :-)
I should have done a tinyURL, sorry!


I have often
wondered if they work - my dad had four poodles (two standards, two smaller)
and he bought something similar. But he said it couldn't keep up with it -
though to be honest, it didn't look nearly as capable as this sort of thing.
Any ideas what the "digester" powder stuff does and what it looks like when
it's done ?

The Dooley is a bit small I think if you have multiple dogs... I've
considered building a larger one for myself, maybe out of cinder blocks.
I don't see why I could not build a mini underground septic tank and
just buy the digestive powders sold at the home store for regular septic
tanks.

The powders usually contain specific bacteria that is beneficial for
composting. Home septic tank systems usually benefit from a similar
product.

K.





Rachael



--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article , Katra wrote:
As for safety, more folks are concerned about possible pathogens that
dogs may carry in their poop, including parasites. Most dog parasites
tho' are not communicable to humans.
Not exactly. Coccidia and giardia don't really give a flip what they
inhabit (beaver, elk, and cattle can all carry them, as well as
dogs; drinking from those sparkling mountain streams is a good way to
get giardia).
Note that I said "most" parasites. ;-)
There are always exceptions...

Of course. Without exceptions, how would one define the rules?

Dog and cat tapeworms, if ingested by humans, may live there for awhile
but they won't reproduce in humans and complete a life cycle. Same I
think goes for the common Ascarids?

Yes, but what can happen with ascarids (roundworms) is that instead of
migrating to the gut where they belong, they wind up in the liver,
brain, or some other organ that does not cope well with them at all
(I've heard of one winding up inside an eye!) Admittedly this is a
very rare freak occurance that can also happen with human pinworms,
but if you're feeling paranoid, there's something more to worry about
for ya

If you make a habit of licking your shoe soles, you'll come up with
roundworms or pinworms fairly quick. You can almost always culture
coccidia and giardia from any dog if you work at it hard enough, being
they are natural inhabitants of the gut.
Yeah, Giardia is pretty universal! Even birds get that and it makes them
(and humans) very sick!

Well, not exactly. An *overgrowth* is what makes you sick. Having a
little giardia or coccidia (which is more common in birds) in your
system won't, if you have a normal healthy immune system and a
reasonably normal balance of gut bacteria.

Cat feces are somewhat more of a problem, what with -- now I can't
make the name come to mind, but the common pathogen that is a specific
hazard to pregnant women.
Toxoplasmosis.

Yeah, that's the one.

You have to work at it tho' to get it, but pregnant women still should
not clean litter boxes. You can get the cats tested and treated for it
if you are all that worried. :-)

Same with any parasite

The issue with human feces as compost isn't so much normal stuff it
carries no matter what (ie. the usual bacteria and parasites), but
rather stuff that someone living in Mexico or the Phillipines or China
has adapted to because it is part of their environment: that is,
anyone who survives to adulthood has an immune system that can cope
with it, thru long exposure. Naturally, some babies die before they
can develop resistance.

But we who live in "civilized" countries have no immunity to such
organisms AT ALL, so if WE are exposed, we are at much worse risk to
get really sick. Also, a lot of the 3rd world countries, where human
feces are used for compost, have a fairly high incidence of cholera
and other diseases that are shed in feces, without much distinction
made between compost from healthy individuals or sick ones.

The U.S. health service has occasionally issued advisories against
Americans going to Mexico City, because that brown haze over the city
is NOT just ordinary dust or smog -- it's the dust from dried human
dung from all the surrounding slums where there is no plumbing and
people just shit in the streets. The residents have adapted to it (per
above), but someone from another ecosystem is very likely to become
ill from it.

Conversely, the common canine diseases that shed in feces or urine
(such as parvovirus and distemper) are not transmissible to humans.

~REZ~

In article , "Rachael of Nex, the Wiccan Rat" wrote:
As long as your dogs are getting enough protien... :-)
Highly unlikely on a veggie diet, tho some of the small pet breeds
(ie. those not bred for a mission in life) can get by on diets that
would be starvation for a working dog or brood bitch.
Well, I have two gsd's (both very big and full of life) and a springer, and
my vet seems to be completely happy with their diet, which is based on a
prepared food (Wafcol veggie diet) supplemented with with fresh vegetarian
options from my own kitchen - which I put together after no small amount of
research. The elder shepherd has digestive issues with meat products. His
diet as a pup was quite a story. Both of the gsd's becpome veggies when they
became adults (though I still call the younger one my pup).

Vets are not taught anything about diet in school. They go entirely by
what dog food companies send them. The ONLY company I've seen put out
honest information about canine dietary research is Purina, even if
they don't always follow their own advice. I used to manufacture dog
food for my own kennel, and my background is biochemistry; I've been
through all the original university-based research (not just
that skewed by manufacturers, or tinfoil-hat interests). Plus I have
35 years as a canine professional, feeding on average 30 to 40 dogs
every day, of every age. I am indeed qualified to comment, whether you
choose to believe it or not. However, I'll not go beyond this post,
because I no longer give canine advice for free (I presently charge
$75/incident), having wearied of wasting my breath with people who've
had some success with 2 or 3 pet dogs and think that makes them an
expert.

They are big and hearty enough for me and my vet, anyway, so pardon me if I
feel that as you don't know the dogs in question or the diet I feed them,
you cannot exactly comment on their diet or on any nutritional inadequacies
you might imagine they have.

http://www.wafcol.co.uk/vegetarian.html

Dogs, being fairly flexible in what they can utilize, can scrape by on
such a diet, and even look good so long as the dog is not stressed
(tho if you have trouble keeping them out of the trash, it's due to
protein and fat deprivation). But if it gets sick, it's going to be in
a whole lot more trouble than a dog who has better reserves. And try
feeding this diet to a bitch nursing pups -- she'll be skin and bones
in a couple weeks, and look like death warmed over by weaning, no
matter how much she eats. Whereas a bitch fed a good diet will
actually gain weight while nursing.

BTW, the actual cost of ingredients and processing of any dog food is
$3 to $4 per 50 pounds. Everything else is distributor markup.

And I don't recommend it for compost, because it molds and draws
mice.

~REZ~
Longplain Kennels, Reg'd
old-fashioned classic Labs since 1969
(eleven generations to date)
http://www.longplain.com

In article , Katra wrote:
In article . net,
(Rez) wrote:
[Stool consumption in dogs is another topic, but is regulated by diet,
accessability, pecking order, and how many dogs are present.]
But cat litter boxes seem to be a dog's favorite snack no matter what.

Yep, that falls under "accessability". By preference, dogs eat the
stool of some other species, then that of other dogs, and as a last
resort, their own. More MEAT protein in the diet tends to reduce (or
sometimes eliminate) the behaviour. Soy-based diets encourage it,
evidently due to methionine deficiency (since it can be mitigated by
adding the purified amino acid).

Also, when there are only a couple dogs present, sometimes they never
discover doing it.

Tootsie rolls anyone? lol

Ha, back when I lived in the boonies in Montana, and had an outhouse,
I had a bitch whose most favourite thing in the world was to dig under
the back wall and "clean out" the sump. Yicch!!

K. (who has had to deal with coprophilic dogs... sigh)

If you have more than 5 dogs you hit a behavioural threshold where
one or more of them will ALWAYS exhibit copraphagy. Generally, if
given a choice (but not access to some other species), they consume
from whomever is immediately above them in the social ladder. Some
kennel dogs get so if they see their favourite target squat, they run
over and gobble it before it hits the ground

Since I presently have 38 adult Labs (and 3 baby pups), naturally I
see my share of it!

Anyway, it's normal behaviour in dogs, if vastly annoying when they
then insist that you need a wet sloppy stinky kiss

~REZ~

In article k.net,
(Rez) wrote:

In article , Katra
wrote:
In article . net,
(Rez) wrote:
[Stool consumption in dogs is another topic, but is regulated by diet,
accessability, pecking order, and how many dogs are present.]
But cat litter boxes seem to be a dog's favorite snack no matter what.

Yep, that falls under "accessability". By preference, dogs eat the
stool of some other species, then that of other dogs, and as a last
resort, their own. More MEAT protein in the diet tends to reduce (or
sometimes eliminate) the behaviour. Soy-based diets encourage it,
evidently due to methionine deficiency (since it can be mitigated by
adding the purified amino acid).

Cool! I'll have to remember that. ;-)
I've only had the problem with whippets.... (especially the female) and
I no longer have those. The Shelties don't seem to be interested, but i
feed only Purina kibbles at the moment, and they don't really have
access to the kitty boxes any more...


Also, when there are only a couple dogs present, sometimes they never
discover doing it.

Tootsie rolls anyone? lol

Ha, back when I lived in the boonies in Montana, and had an outhouse,
I had a bitch whose most favourite thing in the world was to dig under
the back wall and "clean out" the sump. Yicch!!

Ew! I've read about pigs doing that too. :-P


K. (who has had to deal with coprophilic dogs... sigh)

If you have more than 5 dogs you hit a behavioural threshold where
one or more of them will ALWAYS exhibit copraphagy. Generally, if
given a choice (but not access to some other species), they consume
from whomever is immediately above them in the social ladder. Some
kennel dogs get so if they see their favourite target squat, they run
over and gobble it before it hits the ground

Rilly? Wow.


Since I presently have 38 adult Labs (and 3 baby pups), naturally I
see my share of it!

I can imagine. :-)

We have 4 dogs of our own, (2 and 1/2 sheltie (one is a crossbreed) and
a border collie) and I've not seen them consume each others poop. We
police every couple of days, but they will eat from the compost if they
can! I try to prevent that as Willow has gotten really sick a couple of
times from doing that. :-(

I'm also boarding a pair of chow/lab crosses, but they don't mingle with
the other dogs.


Anyway, it's normal behaviour in dogs, if vastly annoying when they
then insist that you need a wet sloppy stinky kiss

Ew! lol
No worse that kitty kisses after they lick their butt! :-)

K.


~REZ~


--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

"Rez" wrote in message
link.net...

snipped

Yes, but what can happen with ascarids (roundworms) is that
instead of
migrating to the gut where they belong, they wind up in the
liver,
brain, or some other organ that does not cope well with them at
all
(I've heard of one winding up inside an eye!) Admittedly this
is a
very rare freak occurance that can also happen with human
pinworms,
but if you're feeling paranoid, there's something more to worry
about
for ya

There's a pretty easy prevention for this in places that have
clean water - Wash Your Hands before you eat, and wash the
veggies if you're going to eat 'em raw.

The issue with human feces as compost isn't so much normal
stuff it
carries no matter what (ie. the usual bacteria and parasites),
but
rather stuff that someone living in Mexico or the Phillipines
or China
has adapted to because it is part of their environment: that
is,
anyone who survives to adulthood has an immune system that can
cope
with it, thru long exposure. Naturally, some babies die before
they
can develop resistance.

But we who live in "civilized" countries have no immunity to
such
organisms AT ALL, so if WE are exposed, we are at much worse
risk to
get really sick. Also, a lot of the 3rd world countries, where
human
feces are used for compost, have a fairly high incidence of
cholera
and other diseases that are shed in feces, without much
distinction
made between compost from healthy individuals or sick ones.

My understanding is that the health problems occur bec. the human
waste is *not* composted but used fresh. Composting will kill
pathogens. Just the time it takes to compost kills some of them,
iirc, even if the pile doesn't get real hot.

Also, we need to keep in mind that in the U.S. we're blessed with
clean and safe drinking/washing water. Not so in the Third
World. No water treatment, those pathogens get into the water
and whammo, disease.

My solution, wrt composting the dog doo, is to put it in a large,
dark-colored trash can. Drill holes in the trash can for
aeration. Layer the doo-doo with, oh, dry leaves. Leave it in
the sun for the summer; keep it damp. If you're in a warm
climate, you're almost assuredly going to get it hot for a week
of that time, if not more, from the sun. No need to stir, but
not a bad idea to stick a pole down into it every once in a while
for air. Then stick the stuff in your compost heap. Or let the
worms move in, which they will when the temperature cools in the
fall, and next spring you'll have 1/3 of a trash can of worm doo.

That's what I used to do when we lived in the city. I never
measured the temp in one of those bins, but they seemed to get
pretty hot, so some of the pathogens shoulda died. The
appropriate temp is what, a week at 150 F(?) Or 180 F(?) to
kill parasites.

flick 100785
--
If you're out to beat a dog, you'll find a stick to beat it with.
Yiddish saying


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 5/31/2004

writes:

Yep, that falls under "accessability". By preference, dogs eat the
stool of some other species, then that of other dogs, and as a last
resort, their own. More MEAT protein in the diet tends to reduce (or
sometimes eliminate) the behaviour. Soy-based diets encourage it,
evidently due to methionine deficiency (since it can be mitigated by
adding the purified amino acid).

Hmmmm. I was told decades ago that dogs, as well as other predator
species, do this to absorb the smell of their prey so as not to be so
detectable. Also that is why they will roll in manure, etc.

Perhaps if higher meat diets reduces it, that only provides validation to
what was told to me.

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 01:01:18 GMT, (Rez)
wrote:

In article , Katra wrote:
In article . net,
(Rez) wrote:
[Stool consumption in dogs is another topic, but is regulated by diet,
accessability, pecking order, and how many dogs are present.]
But cat litter boxes seem to be a dog's favorite snack no matter what.

Yep, that falls under "accessability". By preference, dogs eat the
stool of some other species, then that of other dogs, and as a last
resort, their own. More MEAT protein in the diet tends to reduce (or
sometimes eliminate) the behaviour. Soy-based diets encourage it,
evidently due to methionine deficiency (since it can be mitigated by
adding the purified amino acid).

Also, when there are only a couple dogs present, sometimes they never
discover doing it.

Tootsie rolls anyone? lol

Ha, back when I lived in the boonies in Montana, and had an outhouse,
I had a bitch whose most favourite thing in the world was to dig under
the back wall and "clean out" the sump. Yicch!!

K. (who has had to deal with coprophilic dogs... sigh)

If you have more than 5 dogs you hit a behavioural threshold where
one or more of them will ALWAYS exhibit copraphagy. Generally, if
given a choice (but not access to some other species), they consume
from whomever is immediately above them in the social ladder. Some
kennel dogs get so if they see their favourite target squat, they run
over and gobble it before it hits the ground

Since I presently have 38 adult Labs (and 3 baby pups), naturally I
see my share of it!

Anyway, it's normal behaviour in dogs, if vastly annoying when they
then insist that you need a wet sloppy stinky kiss

~REZ~

Years ago, neighbors then had a black lab that they kept in a dog run
most of the time. She was getting old, overweight, and the owners
were older. They fed and watered her ok, but they only took her out
now and then, and the fellow would toss a retrieval "thingie" (like
that technical term?) that they make for training retrievers... either
canvas or plastic with bumps on it.. about 12 -16 long, a roll with a
loop on the end.. into the canal that ran through their yard, and
she'd go get it and bring it back and the fellow would do that for 10
or 15 minutes, then back into the run she'd go.

The dog was bored, and she would bark at night ..but eventually she'd
stop if we yelled at her once we learned her name, and she got used to
us. BUT.. she was the first dog I'd ever seen that would shit and
turn around and eat it again. GAG and ..I guess the last one I'd
seen do so. I've seen plenty of dogs that will clean out the cat pan
and do so with great gusto and glee... happy as could be to find such
stuff even if it had kitty litter on it!! I had to put a child
security gate up that was stretched wide enough to let the cats get
through them, but keep my dogs out.

Anyway, as far as that poor lab, I'd always attributed her disgusting
habit to some sort of mental health issue from being locked up in that
dog run with no contact with people or other dogs except for feeding
and those few minutes of fetch now and then.

It makes me crazy when people get a dog, then lock it up out in a run
and basically ignore it. My sister ended up with a german shorthair
because it and a black lab had been locked in a garage with a rotting
deer carcass and abandoned. The shorthair apparently was gun shy, and
that made the owner angry.. silly that the dog would misbehave after
being locked up all year then taken out and expected to "perform" ..
probably with little or no initial training, but I suspect that he'd
been shot at .... but dogs do end up more than a little "disturbed" by
poor treatment, and that can cause the poop and scoop her own feces in
the case of the lab, just like other dogs who have been abandoned
locked in a garage dog to get panicy .. as the shorthair did when my
sister had to suddenly change her routine when her husband rolled the
truck and broke his neck ..but survived (unfortunately) .so no one was
home for a time at their normal times and Zeke.. the shorthair started
jumping up and tearing down the curtains, and eventually managing to
not only jump over 6 1/2 feet up to a small window, break it and catch
hold to the frame and pull himself out! That was not easy! He tried
the other windows in the house, but they were sliders, and tougher so
didn't break.

He wasn't abandoned, people were there every day, but just not at the
times that they used to be, and the kids were staying elsewhere. The
other dogs started doing other stuff.. one chewed the crotches out of
all the underwear it could find. I realize that they were stressed
seeking the scent of their missing people, and as a consequence, they
had to find new homes for them all, as the schedules weren't going to
be getting better for some time.

So, in my typical long winded style .. I guess I'm just asking if the
poop eating can also be emitional/mental illness on the part of the
dog due to neglect?
Janice

flick wrote:


That's what I used to do when we lived in the city. I never
measured the temp in one of those bins, but they seemed to get
pretty hot, so some of the pathogens shoulda died. The
appropriate temp is what, a week at 150 F(?) Or 180 F(?) to
kill parasites.

flick 100785

Good points. Let me just add to them, if I can.

The appropriate temp varies with time exposure. The longer the temp is held,
the lower it can be. At the temps you mention, mere hours are enough. Even
poorly built piles of adequate size will attain core temps of 130 F. for
the week or so that is recommended.

Here's the kicker: even if the pile never does go above body temperature,
eventually the parasites die anyways. Why?

No food. Temperature extremes. Ultraviolet light sterilization. Falling prey
to other biota. Dryness. None of these mechanisms alone is enough, but they
each take a toll and the combined toll IS enough. We just need to give the
pile time if we can't give it heat.

I want to make what I think is an important point. We are not trying to make
the compost absolutely sterile. That is not the goal at all. We only hope
to make it as safe as the soil it is used in and on. Culture a petri dish
of soil sometime and you'll see that this is an easy target to reach.

Composting is simply the act of gathering together and concentrating the
processes that occur naturally without human intervention. Who here fears
forest soil? Who even cares if a bear made a doo-doo on it last year? Who
cares if a deer carcass rotted on it five years ago? Or if a mouse or
squirrel shat on it today? The bear doo-doo and the deer carcass benefitted
from time, not temp. and the only trace they left behind was soil that was
richer for their presence. The rodent doo-doo is simply accepted because
there is little choice and little risk. We want that bushel of soil, rat
poop and all, because we know how fertile it is. We'll take our chances
with the poop.

We let the three year old eat the green bean fresh from the vine with little
concern for what the wind, bird and bug have left behind. Why? Because we
want her to love gardens as we do. It's a calculated risk ... and we all
take it.

Gardening is simply the act of working with natural processes to grow
specific species of plants that we find useful. Making compost is just one
of those natural processes. Taking reasonable risks is part of
gardening ... as it is all of life.

Don't dust, rub or spray your plants with diseased manure / urine and the
processes that were in place in the Garden of Eden will take care of the
rest. With or without our help, depending on how much of a hurry we are in
to relax in the garden.

In article , "flick" wrote:
There's a pretty easy prevention for this in places that have
clean water - Wash Your Hands before you eat, and wash the
veggies if you're going to eat 'em raw.

Pretty much. And use a scrub brush with fine bristles -- surgical
scrub doodads are great for this sort of thing. Soap isn't necessary;
in fact the reason surgeons scrub like maniacs is primarily for
mechanical removal of bacteria, as this has been found to be more
effective than chemicals.

My understanding is that the health problems occur bec. the human
waste is *not* composted but used fresh. Composting will kill
pathogens. Just the time it takes to compost kills some of them,
iirc, even if the pile doesn't get real hot.

Well, there are pathogens that can survive plenty of abuse, as they
encapsulate. But composting certainly would get rid of the ones that
don't survive long outside the body or don't tolerate temperature
changes.

Also, we need to keep in mind that in the U.S. we're blessed with
clean and safe drinking/washing water. Not so in the Third
World. No water treatment, those pathogens get into the water
and whammo, disease.

Yep.

That's what I used to do when we lived in the city. I never
measured the temp in one of those bins, but they seemed to get
pretty hot, so some of the pathogens shoulda died. The
appropriate temp is what, a week at 150 F(?) Or 180 F(?) to
kill parasites.

150 or so to kill the fragile ones. 180 for the tougher ones.
400 degrees to kill the really resistant ones that encapsulate. By
this point, one's compost pile is usually on fire.

~REZ~

In article , Bill wrote:
I want to make what I think is an important point. We are not trying to make
the compost absolutely sterile. That is not the goal at all. We only hope
to make it as safe as the soil it is used in and on. Culture a petri dish
of soil sometime and you'll see that this is an easy target to reach.

Right. As I pointed out, roundworms are in ordinary soil everywhere,
in fact the most common way dogs pick up fresh infestations is walking
on dirt then licking their feet. (Tho a dog on a meat-based diet will
have a gut water balance and immune response that keeps ascarids at a
very low level; also, there is some evidence that a low population of
"normal" parasites are *required* for truly sound intestinal balance.
Which a lot of breeders had already noticed, since 100%-parasite-free
puppies tend to have more issues with unexplained diarrhea.)

Composting is simply the act of gathering together and concentrating the
processes that occur naturally without human intervention. Who here fears
forest soil? Who even cares if a bear made a doo-doo on it last year? Who
cares if a deer carcass rotted on it five years ago? Or if a mouse or
squirrel shat on it today? The bear doo-doo and the deer carcass benefitted
from time, not temp. and the only trace they left behind was soil that was
richer for their presence. The rodent doo-doo is simply accepted because
there is little choice and little risk. We want that bushel of soil, rat
poop and all, because we know how fertile it is. We'll take our chances
with the poop.

Right. The odd lump here and there from reasonably healthy critters
(or dead critters from natural causes) won't hurt anything and will
provide concentrated nitrogen. But this is different from trying to
make compost from materials that are *primarily* poop (or corpses
In nature, poop gets dropped here and there, is a very tiny minority
of the total, and is worked upon by all the stuff around it. It's not
piled all in one big heap. (Tho Garden Cat is making the attempt...
she's got two distinct *piles* going in my side yard -- not that it's
going to hurt the desert sand much.)

BTW, some years ago someone did some research on why certain swaths of
Europe, most notably in Germany and France, have such spectacularly
lush growth, above and beyond what is typical for the region. A glance
at historical maps, and some digging, made the reason obvious: these
are areas that have been battlegrounds for centuries, and have a
rather high concentration of, um, composted corpses (blood is a
wonderful fertilizer!) and rusted armour.

We let the three year old eat the green bean fresh from the vine with little
concern for what the wind, bird and bug have left behind. Why? Because we
want her to love gardens as we do. It's a calculated risk ... and we all
take it.

And there is somewhat more risk in over-protecting a child from their
environment anyway, as the immune system *requires* a certain level of
challenges to develop proper and normal immunity to the ordinary gunk
of Real Life. Frex, it's been discovered that kids who grow up around
dogs and cats have a much lower incidence of allergies as adults,
because their immune systems got a useful level of challenge for
developing to best performance and least chance of overreaction
(allergy being essentially an immune overreaction). Eating a bit of
healthy garden dirt now and then isn't going to hurt a kid, in fact
it's far more likely to be good for 'em.

~REZ~

In article , Katra wrote:
I've only had the problem with whippets.... (especially the female) and
I no longer have those. The Shelties don't seem to be interested, but i
feed only Purina kibbles at the moment, and they don't really have
access to the kitty boxes any more...

Some breeds need more protein, which tends to increase the problem.

Ha, back when I lived in the boonies in Montana, and had an outhouse,
I had a bitch whose most favourite thing in the world was to dig under
the back wall and "clean out" the sump. Yicch!!
Ew! I've read about pigs doing that too. :-P

Oh yes, anything with protein in it, pigs will eat (including each
other).


K. (who has had to deal with coprophilic dogs... sigh)
If you have more than 5 dogs you hit a behavioural threshold where
one or more of them will ALWAYS exhibit copraphagy. Generally, if
given a choice (but not access to some other species), they consume
from whomever is immediately above them in the social ladder. Some
kennel dogs get so if they see their favourite target squat, they run
over and gobble it before it hits the ground
Rilly? Wow.

Kennels teach one a great deal about effluvia

We have 4 dogs of our own, (2 and 1/2 sheltie (one is a crossbreed) and
a border collie) and I've not seen them consume each others poop. We
police every couple of days, but they will eat from the compost if they

Accessability, remember! Since they can get at the compost, they don't
feel the need to consume from one another's leavings. And with only 4
dogs, you're below the social threshold point. Some dogs will eat
dirt instead, but you'll notice they have a particular patch of dirt
that they eat from all the time, not just random dirt.

can! I try to prevent that as Willow has gotten really sick a couple
of
times from doing that. :-(

Yeah, my tenant's Golden sometimes gets "toomuchhorseshititis" from
chowing down at the manure pile (even tho it's bone dry and a couple
years old now, and most nearly resembles lumpy lawn clippings). Screws
up the balance of intestinal flora and the dog gets the trots. A
couple days of metronidazole (or pretty much any handy oral
antibiotic, which kind isn't critical) takes care of the problem --
you don't want to kill all the gut bacteria, just reduce the total
load to normal levels. You can order metronidazole as "Fish-Zole" from
wholesale pet supply outfits. I usually use valleyvet.com

~REZ~

In article , wrote:
Years ago, neighbors then had a black lab that they kept in a dog run
most of the time. She was getting old, overweight, and the owners
were older. They fed and watered her ok, but they only took her out
now and then, and the fellow would toss a retrieval "thingie" (like
that technical term?) that they make for training retrievers... either
canvas or plastic with bumps on it.. about 12 -16 long, a roll with a

Bumper or dummy, depending on the speaker's whim. Glad to see I'm not
the only one who makes up words... frex, one signs checks with an
"onscribble-wither"

loop on the end.. into the canal that ran through their yard, and
she'd go get it and bring it back and the fellow would do that for 10
or 15 minutes, then back into the run she'd go.

Well, speaking from 35 years as a pro trainer, they were doing the
right thing insofar as giving her a retriever's job as exercise.

The dog was bored, and she would bark at night ..but eventually she'd
stop if we yelled at her once we learned her name, and she got used to

I have dogs who bark at the moon. Makes you wonder.

us. BUT.. she was the first dog I'd ever seen that would shit and
turn around and eat it again. GAG and ..I guess the last one I'd

That's pretty common among low-end betas (one of the distinct social
types, which BTW are inherited, NOT made).

seen do so. I've seen plenty of dogs that will clean out the cat pan
and do so with great gusto and glee... happy as could be to find such
stuff even if it had kitty litter on it!! I had to put a child

Oh yes, it's their idea of candy!

security gate up that was stretched wide enough to let the cats get
through them, but keep my dogs out.

Clever idea.

Anyway, as far as that poor lab, I'd always attributed her disgusting
habit to some sort of mental health issue from being locked up in that
dog run with no contact with people or other dogs except for feeding
and those few minutes of fetch now and then.

Nope. Combination of diet, social status (as genetically hardwired),
or at ANY point in her life being exposed to a multi-dog environment.
Also, some bitches clean up after their pups with excessive zeal which
continues after weaning, then translates to any tasty pile they find.
And some dogs have higher protein needs than others, and are more
likely to make up the difference by stool consumption, especially when
fed soy-based diets.

It makes me crazy when people get a dog, then lock it up out in a run

Altho that is less frustrating to the dog than being allowed to behave
like a wild delinquent, and it's better than letting it run loose
(ie. giving no boundaries at all). At least the kennel dog knows ONE
thing that's expected of it (ie. where it is supposed to be) and
that's better than the absolute zilch training some people now do,
then wonder why the dog "acts out". Dogs have a need for consistency
in their lives; they LIKE the world to be set in stone, with definite
boundaries.

and basically ignore it. My sister ended up with a german shorthair
because it and a black lab had been locked in a garage with a rotting
deer carcass and abandoned. The shorthair apparently was gun shy, and

Yuck.

that made the owner angry.. silly that the dog would misbehave after
being locked up all year then taken out and expected to "perform" ..

Gunshyness is inherited; essentially it's OH MY GOD! behaviour that's
triggered by noise. A lot of 'em are fear-aggressive too, or
dog-aggressive, or generally spooky, and in Aussies it goes as far as
outright autism.

probably with little or no initial training, but I suspect that he'd
been shot at .... but dogs do end up more than a little "disturbed" by
poor treatment, and that can cause the poop and scoop her own feces in

Well, no. You can't make a *normal* dog gunshy by shooting at it. You
can make it a little flinchy but not outright gunshy, and the
flinchiness goes away after a month or so. Same with an "abused" dog.
You can beat hell out of it every day for a year, then put it in a
normal home and within a month or so, it will revert to whatever
behaviour it naturally has (ie. inherited), good or bad. Most of these
so-called "abused" dogs fobbed off by rescue outfits were not abused
at all, they were born that way, and would have been shy, spooky,
fear-biters, or whatever unlivable behaviour, no matter how
well-treated. That's why such dogs wind up with rescues in the first
place. (And many rescues are not above lying to make you feel sorry
for the dog so you'll adopt it.) NORMAL dogs are pretty flexible, and
can cope with just about anything.

This is why ethical breeders select for sound temperaments (if
temperament weren't inherited, why not breed from spooks and
fear-biters??) Who wants to live with a psycho of any species??

the case of the lab, just like other dogs who have been abandoned
locked in a garage dog to get panicy .. as the shorthair did when my
sister had to suddenly change her routine when her husband rolled the

Nope, if the dog can't handle that, it's because it's just not got the
wiring to do so. There are obsessive-compulsive dogs (just like in
humans, where it's been found to be due to an imbalance in a
particular bit of brain chemistry), and these same dogs tend to be
noise-panicky (ie. gunshy) and completely unable to cope with any
change of routine. But this indicates that the dog is NOT normal, and
the behaviour is defintitely inherited.

truck and broke his neck ..but survived (unfortunately) .so no one was

Ugh!! That's shit luck.

home for a time at their normal times and Zeke.. the shorthair started
jumping up and tearing down the curtains, and eventually managing to
not only jump over 6 1/2 feet up to a small window, break it and catch
hold to the frame and pull himself out! That was not easy! He tried
the other windows in the house, but they were sliders, and tougher so
didn't break.

Dogs that have the "gunshy" type of spookiness do things like that --
frex, they seem fine until a thunderstorm comes along, then climb
over the fence into the next yard and beat the crap out of your
neighbour's dog that otherwise it gets along with just fine. It is NOT
caused by owner neglect, tho lack of training exacerbates the problem,
because such dogs cannot cope with *options*. If you TELL them how
they're going to behave and enforce it (so the dog never has to
choose what to do), they're fine, but if they have to make a decision
themselves, they panic and do stupid things exactly as you describe.
Such a dog is MUCH happier if confined in a crate or kennel when no
one is around, since that way they KNOW how the world works.

Such dogs can't just relax when there is nothing to do; not having
something *specific* to do is the same for them as having infinite
options.

So, in my typical long winded style .. I guess I'm just asking if the

Ha, I've barely got started

poop eating can also be emitional/mental illness on the part of the
dog due to neglect?

Nope, never. Nor is the behaviour you describe due to neglect; that
dog *inherited* its behaviour pattern (with the window-escapee, it's
essentially a form of psychosis). As noted lack of training makes it
worse. Part of what training IS, is that YOU make the decisions,
rather than putting that burden on the dog. These dogs can't cope with
having to make any decisions themselves.

~REZ~

"Rez" wrote in message
hlink.net...

snipped interesting dog doo info

Altho that is less frustrating to the dog than being allowed to
behave
like a wild delinquent, and it's better than letting it run
loose
(ie. giving no boundaries at all). At least the kennel dog
knows ONE
thing that's expected of it (ie. where it is supposed to be)
and
that's better than the absolute zilch training some people now
do,
then wonder why the dog "acts out". Dogs have a need for
consistency
in their lives; they LIKE the world to be set in stone, with
definite
boundaries.

I think it's cruel to keep a dog kenneled day in, day out with
little social interaction - whether it's with other dogs or its
human "pack." But that's just my opinion. Dogs appear to adapt
to that type of life, though I think they're "happier" as I said
with more social interaction than just what's necessary to feed
and water and stretch their legs once a day.

As you so rightly point out, dogs need consistency.

Well, no. You can't make a *normal* dog gunshy by shooting at
it. You
can make it a little flinchy but not outright gunshy, and the
flinchiness goes away after a month or so. Same with an
"abused" dog.
You can beat hell out of it every day for a year, then put it
in a
normal home and within a month or so, it will revert to
whatever
behaviour it naturally has (ie. inherited), good or bad.

Bravo! I'm a volunteer in rescue and have a number of dogs
here - one of which I know for a fact was abused and neglected
for the first 3 years of his life (both from his condition and
from the abuser's spouse, who turned him over to us). He had
scars, he was chronically underfed, I had to cut the chain off
his neck with bolt cutters and treat the cuts because it had been
way too tight.

And you'd never, never know it, except possibly for a little bit
of temporary shyness around men. And that shyness passes in 2 mi
nutes. He's a Good Dog.

Most of these
so-called "abused" dogs fobbed off by rescue outfits were not
abused
at all, they were born that way, and would have been shy,
spooky,
fear-biters, or whatever unlivable behaviour, no matter how
well-treated. That's why such dogs wind up with rescues in the
first
place. (And many rescues are not above lying to make you feel
sorry
for the dog so you'll adopt it.) NORMAL dogs are pretty
flexible, and
can cope with just about anything.

Again, bravo! I've been having a discussion in another group
about dogs that are supposedly "stressed" because they're in
shelters, and dogs that are in shelters long-term until they "go
nuts." I keep saying that a shelter may well be better/less
stressful than what the dog knew before; if they've been in there
a while, they may have adjusted; they may have been nuts before
they got there; and if a shelter *drives* dogs nuts to stay there
long-term, they shouldn't be there long-term, it's cruel. IME,
the time that dogs are "stressed" is when they're adjusting to a
New Life. For a dog with a good temperament, that stress appears
to pass in 2-3 days when they come here.

But the other "rescue people" like to feel useful, I guess, and
they disagree. I'd've thought it would be enough to take a
discarded good dog and find it a new home, without assuming that
the nutso dogs are victims of abuse or "shelter stress."

flick 100785






---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 6/4/2004

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Good points. Let me just add to them, if I can.

The appropriate temp varies with time exposure. The longer the
temp is held,
the lower it can be. At the temps you mention, mere hours are
enough. Even
poorly built piles of adequate size will attain core temps of
130 F. for
the week or so that is recommended.

Here's the kicker: even if the pile never does go above body
temperature,
eventually the parasites die anyways. Why?

No food. Temperature extremes. Ultraviolet light sterilization.
Falling prey
to other biota. Dryness. None of these mechanisms alone is
enough, but they
each take a toll and the combined toll IS enough. We just need
to give the
pile time if we can't give it heat.

I want to make what I think is an important point. We are not
trying to make
the compost absolutely sterile. That is not the goal at all. We
only hope
to make it as safe as the soil it is used in and on. Culture a
petri dish
of soil sometime and you'll see that this is an easy target to
reach.

Composting is simply the act of gathering together and
concentrating the
processes that occur naturally without human intervention. Who
here fears
forest soil? Who even cares if a bear made a doo-doo on it last
year? Who
cares if a deer carcass rotted on it five years ago? Or if a
mouse or
squirrel shat on it today? The bear doo-doo and the deer
carcass benefitted
from time, not temp. and the only trace they left behind was
soil that was
richer for their presence. The rodent doo-doo is simply
accepted because
there is little choice and little risk. We want that bushel of
soil, rat
poop and all, because we know how fertile it is. We'll take our
chances
with the poop.

We let the three year old eat the green bean fresh from the
vine with little
concern for what the wind, bird and bug have left behind. Why?
Because we
want her to love gardens as we do. It's a calculated risk ...
and we all
take it.

Gardening is simply the act of working with natural processes
to grow
specific species of plants that we find useful. Making compost
is just one
of those natural processes. Taking reasonable risks is part of
gardening ... as it is all of life.

Don't dust, rub or spray your plants with diseased manure /
urine and the
processes that were in place in the Garden of Eden will take
care of the
rest. With or without our help, depending on how much of a
hurry we are in
to relax in the garden.

I really appreciate the posts you've made in this topic, with
scientific knowledge. Thanks.

I compost the dog doo here, because there's no other reasonable
way to dispose of the large quantities, and it's nice to know
that I'm not committing some horrible environmental sin ;-).

flick 100785



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 6/7/2004