writes:
Brigitte J. said:

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is dog poop OK in the compost
bin?

If it's your own dog who licks you, sits on you, and basically 'shares'
himself
and whatever he may have inside him with you, and your compost is made
in hot batches it would probably be OK.

Not everyone who has a dog "shares" with the dog. There are still some of
us who don't allow the dog on furniture, etc., and licking by the dog is
confined to the hands or arms (of the human), which are frequently washed.
(I've never licked my own hands after the dog has! Nor do I eat afterward
without washing). Also, there is a huge difference between saliva (and
what it may carry) and poop (and what it certainly carries!) . . . after
all, most people would not object to a kiss from a young child but
certainly don't want child poop distributed in the same way.

My point is that poop/feces has bacteria, etc., in it that is there
because of the digestive process and what the animal has eaten . . .
things that are definitely not in the same dog's "kisses." Yes, I know a
dog licks itself, but that "material" is significantly changed immediately
by the saliva in the dog's mouth. Saliva and poop are *not* the same!

It's not even an option to put this crap (literally) on the garden (even
through composting which may or may not be hot enough at any particular
time) because you are not the only person who might eat from that garden.
A principal that I always use is to consider the youngest eater of the
garden, which in this case is my granddaughters, and consider what even
minute amounts of something might do to their tiny bodies which have less
body mass to fight toxins/bacteria/bad guys as well as smaller and less
effective immune systems. Something that has not been mentioned in all
this discussion of human/predator manure is the extremely and tragically
high childhood death rate in countries which do routinely use it (for lack
of better). That is very definitely only one factor, but it is a factor.
Certainly, we, living in this country or even signified by the fact we
have computers (designating a different access to resources), are not
required to use potentially dangerous/harmful elements for fertilizer for
our very survival. While fertilizer is sold by many cities after
processing waste through the sewage treatment plants, it is not the same
as can be done by an individual. For 15 years, my husband worked on site
at a plant during expansion construction . . . trust me, *no* common
nasties can survive what they do to the sludge! And there is absolutely
no way that we can begin to process feces as effectively, short of buying
hospital grade sterilizing equipment . . . there is a reason they call it
"cooking" and refer to a step in the process as "roast turkey." The
discussions here about how to make it "safe" have bordered on amusing to
those who have some familiarity of the entire process of using sewage
waste for fertilizer . . . it isn't a simple matter of loading it and
trucking it to your garden.

Okay, I have that "off my chest" for now. It's time to go pull weeds after
our downpours of the last couple of days!

Glenna
who knew there was a reason to
put off preparing the new beds
for the last of the purchased plants

In article ,
"Brigitte J." wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"FDR" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
Proper composting kills pathogens...

Would you really want to risk it considering you may not properly
compost?
I'd sooner spend a few bucks on a bial of straw or hay than throw dog
shit
in my bin.


I shovel up the dog shit and throw it up against the fence for my wild
grape vines to eat. The grapes never come into contact with the poop, so
I don't worry about it. The grape vines seem to be very happy, and I've
got to do SOMETHING with the shit from 3 shelties and a border collie,
plus two lab/chows that I'm boarding for a friend! ;-)

The grape vines (and the honeysuckle vines) seem to appreciate the
fertilizer!

Seems that using it on anything I'm going to eat is out of the question.
But I have some other things I might try it on.

Thanks for all the "shitty" ideas.

Brigitte



:-D

Just be careful with it. It's very rich in Nitrogen!

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

Glenna Rose wrote:
writes:

Brigitte J. said:

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is dog poop OK in the compost

bin?

If it's your own dog who licks you, sits on you, and basically 'shares'
himself
and whatever he may have inside him with you, and your compost is made
in hot batches it would probably be OK.


Not everyone who has a dog "shares" with the dog. There are still some of
us who don't allow the dog on furniture, etc., and licking by the dog is
confined to the hands or arms (of the human), which are frequently washed.
(I've never licked my own hands after the dog has! Nor do I eat afterward
without washing). Also, there is a huge difference between saliva (and
what it may carry) and poop (and what it certainly carries!) . . . after
all, most people would not object to a kiss from a young child but
certainly don't want child poop distributed in the same way.

My point is that poop/feces has bacteria, etc., in it that is there
because of the digestive process and what the animal has eaten . . .
things that are definitely not in the same dog's "kisses." Yes, I know a
dog licks itself, but that "material" is significantly changed immediately
by the saliva in the dog's mouth. Saliva and poop are *not* the same!

It's not even an option to put this crap (literally) on the garden (even
through composting which may or may not be hot enough at any particular
time) because you are not the only person who might eat from that garden.
A principal that I always use is to consider the youngest eater of the
garden, which in this case is my granddaughters, and consider what even
minute amounts of something might do to their tiny bodies which have less
body mass to fight toxins/bacteria/bad guys as well as smaller and less
effective immune systems. Something that has not been mentioned in all
this discussion of human/predator manure is the extremely and tragically
high childhood death rate in countries which do routinely use it (for lack
of better). That is very definitely only one factor, but it is a factor.
Certainly, we, living in this country or even signified by the fact we
have computers (designating a different access to resources), are not
required to use potentially dangerous/harmful elements for fertilizer for
our very survival. While fertilizer is sold by many cities after
processing waste through the sewage treatment plants, it is not the same
as can be done by an individual. For 15 years, my husband worked on site
at a plant during expansion construction . . . trust me, *no* common
nasties can survive what they do to the sludge! And there is absolutely
no way that we can begin to process feces as effectively, short of buying
hospital grade sterilizing equipment . . . there is a reason they call it
"cooking" and refer to a step in the process as "roast turkey." The
discussions here about how to make it "safe" have bordered on amusing to
those who have some familiarity of the entire process of using sewage
waste for fertilizer . . . it isn't a simple matter of loading it and
trucking it to your garden.

Okay, I have that "off my chest" for now. It's time to go pull weeds after
our downpours of the last couple of days!

Glenna
who knew there was a reason to
put off preparing the new beds
for the last of the purchased plants



You're overreacting, bigtime. Do you allow children to play in the
grass where maybe a dog has shit when you weren't looking? (BTW, the
risk with dog waste is parasites much more than it is bacteria.)

And that sewage sludge you mentioned may contain toxin metals that are
definately not cooked out.

Best regards,
Bob -- supposed to be out gardening, but it's raining again.

"Brigitte J." wrote in message
...

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"FDR" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
Proper composting kills pathogens...

Would you really want to risk it considering you may not properly
compost?
I'd sooner spend a few bucks on a bial of straw or hay than throw dog
shit
in my bin.


I shovel up the dog shit and throw it up against the fence for my wild
grape vines to eat. The grapes never come into contact with the poop, so
I don't worry about it. The grape vines seem to be very happy, and I've
got to do SOMETHING with the shit from 3 shelties and a border collie,
plus two lab/chows that I'm boarding for a friend! ;-)

The grape vines (and the honeysuckle vines) seem to appreciate the
fertilizer!

Seems that using it on anything I'm going to eat is out of the question.
But I have some other things I might try it on.

Thanks for all the "shitty" ideas.

I have two huge GSDs and a springer spaniel, so lots of dog crap here too. I
wish I could find something fool proof to do with it - particularly this
week as some nerk has stolen my wheelie bin !! (I'm in the UK - for anyone
who doesn't know what a wheelie bin is - it's a big trash bin you set
outside every week with your trash bags in it to be put in the garbage
lorry. I expect it will be a week or so before the council will bring me a
new one). So my poor little temporary dog shite bin in the back garden is
full to overflowing ....ick.



Rachael

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,
zxcvbob wrote:

Brigitte J. wrote:
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is dog poop OK in the compost
bin?

Thanks,
Brigitte



Sure, in small amounts in a hot bin or an active worm pile.

I wouldn't put large amounts in a cold compost pile or directly in a
vegetable garden.

I can't cite a reference, but I've read in several places that dog and
cat waste can carry disease and should not be used in a garden. But it
won't last very long in a working compost bin (even human waste can be
used in a garden if it's from a properly designed composting toilet.)

Bob

Hot composting is the key...
Predator poop is going to be higher in nitrogen than herbivore poop,
so can be useful but it really needs to be completely composted to kill
possible pathogenic bacteria.

Interesting. So would one assume that poop from veggie dogs would be ok ? My
three are veggies, healthy, wormed reguarly, given regular shots, etc. and
only I and my bf (and the dogs) will eat from my garden, which has to be
said, is mostly flowers, but this year with some sunflowers, tomatoes and
peppers, plus a few herbs.

My composting is not up to stratch yet (waiting for my big composting bin to
arrive as I haven't the space or area for a heap) but I am always hoping to
use all that cack I get from my three for *something* !




Rachael

In article ,
"Rachael of Nex, the Wiccan Rat" wrote:

"Brigitte J." wrote in message
...

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"FDR" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
Proper composting kills pathogens...

Would you really want to risk it considering you may not properly
compost?
I'd sooner spend a few bucks on a bial of straw or hay than throw dog
shit
in my bin.


I shovel up the dog shit and throw it up against the fence for my wild
grape vines to eat. The grapes never come into contact with the poop, so
I don't worry about it. The grape vines seem to be very happy, and I've
got to do SOMETHING with the shit from 3 shelties and a border collie,
plus two lab/chows that I'm boarding for a friend! ;-)

The grape vines (and the honeysuckle vines) seem to appreciate the
fertilizer!

Seems that using it on anything I'm going to eat is out of the question.
But I have some other things I might try it on.

Thanks for all the "shitty" ideas.

I have two huge GSDs and a springer spaniel, so lots of dog crap here too. I
wish I could find something fool proof to do with it - particularly this
week as some nerk has stolen my wheelie bin !! (I'm in the UK - for anyone
who doesn't know what a wheelie bin is - it's a big trash bin you set
outside every week with your trash bags in it to be put in the garbage
lorry. I expect it will be a week or so before the council will bring me a
new one). So my poor little temporary dog shite bin in the back garden is
full to overflowing ....ick.



Rachael



Composting it for flower gardens and other inedibles is acceptable. :-)

Have you seen one of these?

http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/produc...1EETKN8AQ8GR7A
V1W4KJB1LL79X29

This is created specifically for dealing with dog waste.
I'm seriously considering getting one. ;-)

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
"Rachael of Nex, the Wiccan Rat" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,
zxcvbob wrote:

Brigitte J. wrote:
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is dog poop OK in the compost
bin?

Thanks,
Brigitte



Sure, in small amounts in a hot bin or an active worm pile.

I wouldn't put large amounts in a cold compost pile or directly in a
vegetable garden.

I can't cite a reference, but I've read in several places that dog and
cat waste can carry disease and should not be used in a garden. But it
won't last very long in a working compost bin (even human waste can be
used in a garden if it's from a properly designed composting toilet.)

Bob

Hot composting is the key...
Predator poop is going to be higher in nitrogen than herbivore poop,
so can be useful but it really needs to be completely composted to kill
possible pathogenic bacteria.

Interesting. So would one assume that poop from veggie dogs would be ok ? My
three are veggies, healthy, wormed reguarly, given regular shots, etc. and
only I and my bf (and the dogs) will eat from my garden, which has to be
said, is mostly flowers, but this year with some sunflowers, tomatoes and
peppers, plus a few herbs.

As long as your dogs are getting enough protien... :-)
The protien requirements of predators like dogs are higher than that of
herbivours, so the feces should be higher in nitrogen since that is a
waste product of a high protein diet.

As for safety, more folks are concerned about possible pathogens that
dogs may carry in their poop, including parasites. Most dog parasites
tho' are not communicable to humans.


My composting is not up to stratch yet (waiting for my big composting bin to
arrive as I haven't the space or area for a heap) but I am always hoping to
use all that cack I get from my three for *something* !

I know the feeling! grins

K.





Rachael



--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article , Katra wrote:
Composting it for flower gardens and other inedibles is acceptable. :-)
Have you seen one of these?
http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/produc...1EETKN8AQ8GR7A
V1W4KJB1LL79X29

Um.. that's your session ID at the end, more likely you wanted
http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/products.asp and then pick "waste
disposal" from the list to the lower left (javascript required).

This is created specifically for dealing with dog waste.
I'm seriously considering getting one. ;-)

professional dog breeder falls on floor laughing

Here's what I've found in 35 years in dogs (and I keep 30 to 40
Labradors, so I dispose of around 40 lbs. of dog shit per day).

Those waste disposal systems are more work than they're worth, and
prone to fail when the weather is too hot/too cold/too wet, because
they're not deep enough, and being essentially a little septic tank,
they need stable conditions to flourish.

If you are feeding a diet that is based on meat/corn/animal fat, the
stool will deteriorate from exposure to weather, over a period of
several months turning first into dry odorless lumps, then into white
crumbly stuff, then into ashlike stuff that disappears into the dirt.
The only way you can tell where it was is that in the spring, the
grass there is 3 feet high before the rest of it even gets going.

If you are feeding a diet based on chicken or lamb and rice with
chicken fat, don't bother -- it turns into smelly concrete-like lumps
that stay that way pretty much forever, except for losing some odor
over time. A full season of rain and crushing the lumps manually can
eventually turn them into crumbly stuff, but it never does turn into
really good fertilizer, nor become completely odorless.

Before the big shift to chicken/rice in the early 1980s, I could just
fling dog shit out into yonder field forever, and it just disappeared.
Now, I have to pack it to the trash and pay to get it hauled away,
because otherwise it just piles up and is a mess.

Note: the massive increase in skin "allergies" in dogs was exactly
concurrent with the shift away from meat/corn/animal-fat diets; such
problems were never seen in normal dogs (those without autoimmune
disorder) prior to the big diet shift. Draw your own conclusions.

~REZ~
http://www.longplainkennels.com
(or since the redirector seems to be down this week,
http://home.earthlink.net/~rividh/kennel/labrador.htm)

In article , Katra wrote:
Interesting. So would one assume that poop from veggie dogs would be ok ? My
three are veggies, healthy, wormed reguarly, given regular shots, etc. and
only I and my bf (and the dogs) will eat from my garden, which has to be
said, is mostly flowers, but this year with some sunflowers, tomatoes and
peppers, plus a few herbs.
As long as your dogs are getting enough protien... :-)

Highly unlikely on a veggie diet, tho some of the small pet breeds
(ie. those not bred for a mission in life) can get by on diets that
would be starvation for a working dog or brood bitch.

The protien requirements of predators like dogs are higher than that of

About double that of humans, 3-4x that of herbivores.

herbivours, so the feces should be higher in nitrogen since that is a
waste product of a high protein diet.

Yep.

As for safety, more folks are concerned about possible pathogens that
dogs may carry in their poop, including parasites. Most dog parasites
tho' are not communicable to humans.

Not exactly. Coccidia and giardia don't really give a flip what they
inhabit (beaver, elk, and cattle can all carry them, as well as
dogs; drinking from those sparkling mountain streams is a good way to
get giardia). And the various common worms (roundworms, tapeworms,
hookworms) will also infect just about anything in the short term, tho
may not reproduce there. Some of these are commonly found
(encapsulated) in soil anywhere that has EVER had livestock present.
If you make a habit of licking your shoe soles, you'll come up with
roundworms or pinworms fairly quick. You can almost always culture
coccidia and giardia from any dog if you work at it hard enough, being
they are natural inhabitants of the gut.

As to disease-causing pathogens, those outside of E.coli (which is in
anything's lower gut and only a problem when it gets where it doesn't
belong) tend to be species-specific. Frex, you can't get canine
distemper or parvovirus. You CAN get canine brucellosis (a venereal
disease of dogs), but only by contact with the mucosa of an infected
dog. But picking up anything from dog shit is pretty damn rare -- it's
sure not a problem for we with kennels who work around dog shit every
day for years on end, and take no special precautions.

Cat feces are somewhat more of a problem, what with -- now I can't
make the name come to mind, but the common pathogen that is a specific
hazard to pregnant women.

~REZ~

In article fc.003d094101c75cf43b9aca008a82b967.1c75d6f@pmug. org, (Glenna Rose) wrote:
things that are definitely not in the same dog's "kisses." Yes, I know a
dog licks itself, but that "material" is significantly changed immediately
by the saliva in the dog's mouth.

Sorry, no, that's a myth. If a dog licks its arse or eats its stool
or something else's stool (which is a common thing in dogs, even tho
most pet owners never see their beloved pet do it) the bacteria remain
in the mouth as long as it takes for food, drink, and saliva to wash
it away -- primarily by *mechanical action*. There is nothing magical
about dog saliva.

[Stool consumption in dogs is another topic, but is regulated by diet,
accessability, pecking order, and how many dogs are present.]

~REZ~
(35 years a canine professional)

In article , zxcvbob wrote:
You're overreacting, bigtime. Do you allow children to play in the
grass where maybe a dog has shit when you weren't looking? (BTW, the
risk with dog waste is parasites much more than it is bacteria.)

LOL!! Speaking as a kennel owner who, like most kennel owners in the
normal course of life with multiple dogs, has had just about every
body part smeared with dog shit at one time or another (not to mention
having occasionally had it spattered in my eyes and mouth) -- about
all you really have to worry about is getting it into wounds that
cannot be thoroughly washed (such as puncture wounds), because of the
same types of bacteria that are present in ANY creature's shit, which
when out of their own environment will overgrow due to the lack of
checks and balances (other stuff that eats 'em in the gut).

And the same parasites that can infect dogs and people are naturally
present in the soil most places, so better stop walking around
outdoors, too

~REZ~

In article .net,
(Rez) wrote:

In article , Katra
wrote:
Interesting. So would one assume that poop from veggie dogs would be ok ?
My
three are veggies, healthy, wormed reguarly, given regular shots, etc. and
only I and my bf (and the dogs) will eat from my garden, which has to be
said, is mostly flowers, but this year with some sunflowers, tomatoes and
peppers, plus a few herbs.
As long as your dogs are getting enough protien... :-)

Highly unlikely on a veggie diet, tho some of the small pet breeds
(ie. those not bred for a mission in life) can get by on diets that
would be starvation for a working dog or brood bitch.

The protien requirements of predators like dogs are higher than that of

About double that of humans, 3-4x that of herbivores.

herbivours, so the feces should be higher in nitrogen since that is a
waste product of a high protein diet.

Yep.

As for safety, more folks are concerned about possible pathogens that
dogs may carry in their poop, including parasites. Most dog parasites
tho' are not communicable to humans.

Not exactly. Coccidia and giardia don't really give a flip what they
inhabit (beaver, elk, and cattle can all carry them, as well as
dogs; drinking from those sparkling mountain streams is a good way to
get giardia).

Note that I said "most" parasites. ;-)
There are always exceptions...

Dog and cat tapeworms, if ingested by humans, may live there for awhile
but they won't reproduce in humans and complete a life cycle. Same I
think goes for the common Ascarids?

And the various common worms (roundworms, tapeworms,
hookworms) will also infect just about anything in the short term, tho
may not reproduce there. Some of these are commonly found
(encapsulated) in soil anywhere that has EVER had livestock present.
If you make a habit of licking your shoe soles, you'll come up with
roundworms or pinworms fairly quick. You can almost always culture
coccidia and giardia from any dog if you work at it hard enough, being
they are natural inhabitants of the gut.

Yeah, Giardia is pretty universal! Even birds get that and it makes them
(and humans) very sick!


As to disease-causing pathogens, those outside of E.coli (which is in
anything's lower gut and only a problem when it gets where it doesn't
belong) tend to be species-specific. Frex, you can't get canine
distemper or parvovirus. You CAN get canine brucellosis (a venereal
disease of dogs), but only by contact with the mucosa of an infected
dog. But picking up anything from dog shit is pretty damn rare -- it's
sure not a problem for we with kennels who work around dog shit every
day for years on end, and take no special precautions.

Cat feces are somewhat more of a problem, what with -- now I can't
make the name come to mind, but the common pathogen that is a specific
hazard to pregnant women.

~REZ~

Toxoplasmosis.
You have to work at it tho' to get it, but pregnant women still should
not clean litter boxes. You can get the cats tested and treated for it
if you are all that worried. :-)

Pregnant women can also get it from Blood transfusions... Humans can
become carriers.

K.



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http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article . net,
(Rez) wrote:

In article fc.003d094101c75cf43b9aca008a82b967.1c75d6f@pmug. org,
(Glenna Rose) wrote:
things that are definitely not in the same dog's "kisses." Yes, I know a
dog licks itself, but that "material" is significantly changed immediately
by the saliva in the dog's mouth.

Sorry, no, that's a myth. If a dog licks its arse or eats its stool
or something else's stool (which is a common thing in dogs, even tho
most pet owners never see their beloved pet do it) the bacteria remain
in the mouth as long as it takes for food, drink, and saliva to wash
it away -- primarily by *mechanical action*. There is nothing magical
about dog saliva.

[Stool consumption in dogs is another topic, but is regulated by diet,
accessability, pecking order, and how many dogs are present.]

~REZ~
(35 years a canine professional)




But cat litter boxes seem to be a dog's favorite snack no matter what.
;-)

Tootsie rolls anyone? lol

K. (who has had to deal with coprophilic dogs... sigh)

--
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http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

"Rez" wrote in message
link.net...
In article , Katra
wrote:
Interesting. So would one assume that poop from veggie dogs would be ok
? My
three are veggies, healthy, wormed reguarly, given regular shots, etc.
and
only I and my bf (and the dogs) will eat from my garden, which has to
be
said, is mostly flowers, but this year with some sunflowers, tomatoes
and
peppers, plus a few herbs.
As long as your dogs are getting enough protien... :-)

Highly unlikely on a veggie diet, tho some of the small pet breeds
(ie. those not bred for a mission in life) can get by on diets that
would be starvation for a working dog or brood bitch.

Well, I have two gsd's (both very big and full of life) and a springer, and
my vet seems to be completely happy with their diet, which is based on a
prepared food (Wafcol veggie diet) supplemented with with fresh vegetarian
options from my own kitchen - which I put together after no small amount of
research. The elder shepherd has digestive issues with meat products. His
diet as a pup was quite a story. Both of the gsd's becpome veggies when they
became adults (though I still call the younger one my pup).

They are big and hearty enough for me and my vet, anyway, so pardon me if I
feel that as you don't know the dogs in question or the diet I feed them,
you cannot exactly comment on their diet or on any nutritional inadequacies
you might imagine they have.




Rachael

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Rachael of Nex, the Wiccan Rat" wrote:


I have two huge GSDs and a springer spaniel, so lots of dog crap here
too. I
wish I could find something fool proof to do with it - particularly this
week as some nerk has stolen my wheelie bin !! (I'm in the UK - for
anyone
who doesn't know what a wheelie bin is - it's a big trash bin you set
outside every week with your trash bags in it to be put in the garbage
lorry. I expect it will be a week or so before the council will bring me
a
new one). So my poor little temporary dog shite bin in the back garden
is
full to overflowing ....ick.



Rachael



Composting it for flower gardens and other inedibles is acceptable. :-)

Have you seen one of these?

http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/produc...1EETKN8AQ8GR7A
V1W4KJB1LL79X29

This is created specifically for dealing with dog waste.
I'm seriously considering getting one. ;-)

The link is causing me some difficulty but a poke around on the site reveals
something called a Dog Dooley - is that what you mean ? I have often
wondered if they work - my dad had four poodles (two standards, two smaller)
and he bought something similar. But he said it couldn't keep up with it -
though to be honest, it didn't look nearly as capable as this sort of thing.
Any ideas what the "digester" powder stuff does and what it looks like when
it's done ?



Rachael