I haven't really dealt with fish specifics yet. I've been trying to gather
info on the flora side first then move to fauna. I have given a cursory look
at fish tho and other than peacocks most fish seem to be 6" or less, this
may not actually be the cae as I said I have only taken a quick glance at
the fish at this point. I was a bit surprised at the number of fish you
suggested tho, but better to err on the side of safety I guess

Thanks for the input and suggestions

Happy Trails

"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
no filtration? Good luck.... fish poop... it needs to be cleaned..
filtered... whatever.... it's possible to have a non-filtered tank... but
you can't put many fish in it... 5 maybe for a 75g....

I guess that's what the plants are for. But I think this will be a very
difficult project. A Walstead-style tank with Africans...

An
alternative would be to put 5 males of different families, and no
females...
that arrangement will only have a pecking order fight, maybe once, or
twice... and after it's established, no more fights...

That's an interesting idea. It would be pretty, but not very natural.
And I'd
worry about the tank being big enough for this. Malawi cichlids tend to
get
big. One 4" fish produces a lot more waste than four 1" fish. I wouldn't
want
to keep several large fish without filtration. Plus, you'd need a much
larger
tank than you ordinarily would, if you're trying to go with no filtration.
For
many Malawi species, 75 gallons is the minimum even with filtration.
Perhaps a
single breeding pair of some small, peaceful, monogamous species would be
better? (Not that I can think of any at the moment. :-)

btw, Leigh is probably the foremost authority on plants around here...
99x
out of 100, if she says it, you can put your money on it...

Wow, thanks! But I'm sure that honor goes to the likes of Chuck or Tom.
I
just post more. :-D


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

By a "Natural Envrinment" what I am aiming at is a 75g tank with no
artificial filtration. The only thing I intend to add that is not 100%
natural is something I came across called undergravel jets, but this
provides more water movement than any realfiltration. With this in mind I
need something to perform water cycling (trying to avoid setting up a
sump).
I have had great difficulty finding any info regarding the Lake Malawi
biosphere. It is looking more and more like I may not get what I have
envisioned, but the quest continues

no filtration? Good luck.... fish poop... it needs to be cleaned..
filtered... whatever.... it's possible to have a non-filtered tank... but
you can't put many fish in it... 5 maybe for a 75g....

and if I remember correctly, an UG jets, is where the pump just blows the
stuff around... keeping it in the water column... so how's this stuff
supposed to be broken down? I have seen this system, but it was a filtered
reef system... and it did have filtration, by sump....

I realize they like to dig and was hoping to choose fish less prone to
digging if at all possible. To relieve or lessen aggression I have found
many articles that indicate it would be good to have a male to female
ratio
of 1:3 or 4 as well as plenty of rockwork. I don't see a big problem there
as I plan to have a fairly small number of fish in the hope that the large
choice of territory coupled with no plants close to where they may
consider
spawning may lessen the digging. working on a 1:3 ratio as mentioned
previously I was initially thinking 3 types of fish and a scavenger or 2
for
a total of 14 fish, this leaves plenty of room for staking terretorial
caims, and should not create a huge nitrate problem (hopefully)

1. cichlids dig, uproot, scrape against and hide in plants... when
available..
2 when I read your .... should not..... and (hopefully), it makes me think
you need to read some of
www.thekrib.com and then get back to us...
3. you realize that it's just the males that have color, right? Most females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color... but you're right about the
aggression... 1 male to 3 females will cut down on aggression... but even
having a female in the tank will spur aggression.... 2 males, from different
families, won't fight as much as a male and female of the same family... An
alternative would be to put 5 males of different families, and no females...
that arrangement will only have a pecking order fight, maybe once, or
twice... and after it's established, no more fights...
4. the reason you don't find much about "natural environment tanks" is
because they just aren't the best way to do it... you'll probably end up
with green soup if you don't have a filter... and yes, that's just an
educated opinion from what I've read, and seen here in the last 2 years of
my own research...

Now, back to the issue of plants . . .
There are undoubtedly more than just a handful of plants in Lake Malawi,
or
some other means of keeping the environment habitable for cichlids.
This is my primary goal. To create, as best I can, this envirnment as it
occurs naturally.

There are as many different aquariums as there are fish... Do what you're
planning and keep in touch... we'd like to hear about your experiment... I
mean, experience...

OK, I think I have rambled on long enough
If your original suggestion still stands, thanks for the suggestions
otherwise . . .
feed me more!

btw, Leigh is probably the foremost authority on plants around here... 99x
out of 100, if she says it, you can put your money on it...

Cheers

You can also use water sprite as a floating plant. It will help absorb
nitrate. (Nitrate is often a problem in Malawi tanks. They must be
kept
densely stocked to reduce aggression, and that means nitrate builds up
fast.)

ps... she said this line for a reason, and you didn't even see it... how
much did you read about cichlids?

I have given a cursory look
at fish tho and other than peacocks most fish seem to be 6" or less,

Peacocks are peaceful fish, as cichlids go. But 6" is huge, for a 75 gallon
with no filtration. Remember that fish waste is proportional to volume, and
volume increases by the cube of length. A fish that is twice as long does not
produce twice the waste, it produces eight times the waste.

I was a bit surprised at the number of fish you
suggested tho, but better to err on the side of safety I guess

In that case, it's not so much filtration as aggression. Most Malawi keepers
reduce aggression by overcrowding the tank. This forces the fish to get along,
and prevents any one fish from being bullied, simply because there are so many
targets. But you won't be able to do this, without filtration.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

3. you realize that it's just the males that have color, right? Most females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color...

Thats mostly in peacocks...in most Mbuna, the females are colorful. Many species
have no sexual dimorphism, and many have totally different, but equally
coulorful females (Ps. Salousoi, Ps. Lombardoi "Kenyi", Melanchromis "Chipokae",
etc.)

If you want info on Africans try the African Cichlid Resource Forum, or you
could try Cichlid-forum.com. I currently have a 55 gallon set up, with 8 Yellow
labs, and 6 tiger barbs...the tank is lightly planted..and the only thing the
labs seem to do (bright yellow...females too..) is pick the algae off the sword
leaves...

Rich

my bad on the generalization... I have mostly peacocks, should have been
more clear about that.... but my mbunas don't color up unless they're being
bothered though.... but that's typical mbunas....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...

3. you realize that it's just the males that have color, right? Most
females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color...

Thats mostly in peacocks...in most Mbuna, the females are colorful. Many
species
have no sexual dimorphism, and many have totally different, but equally
coulorful females (Ps. Salousoi, Ps. Lombardoi "Kenyi", Melanchromis
"Chipokae",
etc.)

If you want info on Africans try the African Cichlid Resource Forum, or
you
could try Cichlid-forum.com. I currently have a 55 gallon set up, with 8
Yellow
labs, and 6 tiger barbs...the tank is lightly planted..and the only thing
the
labs seem to do (bright yellow...females too..) is pick the algae off the
sword
leaves...

Rich

Sorry...came off a little like an ass there....what type of peacocks are you
keeping? Thinking of adding some to the 55..so I'm looking for some smaller
peacock species...with good blue/red coloration. Any ideas?

350X_Rider wrote:

my bad on the generalization... I have mostly peacocks, should have been
more clear about that.... but my mbunas don't color up unless they're being
bothered though.... but that's typical mbunas....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...

3. you realize that it's just the males that have color, right? Most
females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color...

Thats mostly in peacocks...in most Mbuna, the females are colorful. Many
species
have no sexual dimorphism, and many have totally different, but equally
coulorful females (Ps. Salousoi, Ps. Lombardoi "Kenyi", Melanchromis
"Chipokae",
etc.)

If you want info on Africans try the African Cichlid Resource Forum, or
you
could try Cichlid-forum.com. I currently have a 55 gallon set up, with 8
Yellow
labs, and 6 tiger barbs...the tank is lightly planted..and the only thing
the
labs seem to do (bright yellow...females too..) is pick the algae off the
sword
leaves...

Rich

If you want red and blue species, try Aulonocara stuartgranti

but these are the ones I've either got, or getting...
Aulonocara baenschi - yellowish
have Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red"
Aulonocara lwanda
Aulonocara stuartgranti - almost any kind is gorgeous...
have Aulonocara stuartgranti "Maleri"


"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Sorry...came off a little like an ass there....what type of peacocks are
you
keeping? Thinking of adding some to the 55..so I'm looking for some
smaller
peacock species...with good blue/red coloration. Any ideas?

350X_Rider wrote:

my bad on the generalization... I have mostly peacocks, should have been
more clear about that.... but my mbunas don't color up unless they're
being
bothered though.... but that's typical mbunas....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...

3. you realize that it's just the males that have color, right? Most
females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color...

Thats mostly in peacocks...in most Mbuna, the females are colorful.
Many
species
have no sexual dimorphism, and many have totally different, but
equally
coulorful females (Ps. Salousoi, Ps. Lombardoi "Kenyi", Melanchromis
"Chipokae",
etc.)

If you want info on Africans try the African Cichlid Resource Forum,
or
you
could try Cichlid-forum.com. I currently have a 55 gallon set up, with
8
Yellow
labs, and 6 tiger barbs...the tank is lightly planted..and the only
thing
the
labs seem to do (bright yellow...females too..) is pick the algae off
the
sword
leaves...

Rich

Heard Stuartgranti gets pretty big though.....like 7-8 inches...looking for one
that stays in the 4" range.

350X_Rider wrote:

If you want red and blue species, try Aulonocara stuartgranti

but these are the ones I've either got, or getting...
Aulonocara baenschi - yellowish
have Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red"
Aulonocara lwanda
Aulonocara stuartgranti - almost any kind is gorgeous...
have Aulonocara stuartgranti "Maleri"

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Sorry...came off a little like an ass there....what type of peacocks are
you
keeping? Thinking of adding some to the 55..so I'm looking for some
smaller
peacock species...with good blue/red coloration. Any ideas?

350X_Rider wrote:

my bad on the generalization... I have mostly peacocks, should have been
more clear about that.... but my mbunas don't color up unless they're
being
bothered though.... but that's typical mbunas....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...

3. you realize that it's just the males that have color, right? Most
females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color...

Thats mostly in peacocks...in most Mbuna, the females are colorful.
Many
species
have no sexual dimorphism, and many have totally different, but
equally
coulorful females (Ps. Salousoi, Ps. Lombardoi "Kenyi", Melanchromis
"Chipokae",
etc.)

If you want info on Africans try the African Cichlid Resource Forum,
or
you
could try Cichlid-forum.com. I currently have a 55 gallon set up, with
8
Yellow
labs, and 6 tiger barbs...the tank is lightly planted..and the only
thing
the
labs seem to do (bright yellow...females too..) is pick the algae off
the
sword
leaves...

Rich

not from where I have read, most, if not all peacocks, top out at 4.5" for a
large male.... mostly at the 4" range... mine are all under 4" and they're
almost a 1.5 year old...going on 2....

I used bigskycichlids.com for alot of my research, then there WAS this
fishrooms.com that had great pics of user tanks and their inhabitants, but
I've not seen it lately.. might have been pulled....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Heard Stuartgranti gets pretty big though.....like 7-8 inches...looking
for one
that stays in the 4" range.

350X_Rider wrote:

If you want red and blue species, try Aulonocara stuartgranti

but these are the ones I've either got, or getting...
Aulonocara baenschi - yellowish
have Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red"
Aulonocara lwanda
Aulonocara stuartgranti - almost any kind is gorgeous...
have Aulonocara stuartgranti "Maleri"

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Sorry...came off a little like an ass there....what type of peacocks
are
you
keeping? Thinking of adding some to the 55..so I'm looking for some
smaller
peacock species...with good blue/red coloration. Any ideas?

350X_Rider wrote:

my bad on the generalization... I have mostly peacocks, should have
been
more clear about that.... but my mbunas don't color up unless
they're
being
bothered though.... but that's typical mbunas....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...

3. you realize that it's just the males that have color, right?
Most
females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color...

Thats mostly in peacocks...in most Mbuna, the females are
colorful.
Many
species
have no sexual dimorphism, and many have totally different, but
equally
coulorful females (Ps. Salousoi, Ps. Lombardoi "Kenyi",
Melanchromis
"Chipokae",
etc.)

If you want info on Africans try the African Cichlid Resource
Forum,
or
you
could try Cichlid-forum.com. I currently have a 55 gallon set up,
with
8
Yellow
labs, and 6 tiger barbs...the tank is lightly planted..and the
only
thing
the
labs seem to do (bright yellow...females too..) is pick the algae
off
the
sword
leaves...

Rich

hmmm . . interesting idea.
sort of a home made pre filter for the pump. maybe 2 or 3 might work

"kush" wrote in message
...
I have a suggestion that may work for you, although I haven't done this on
anything larger than a 20 gallon tank - most of my smaller tanks are
unfiltered. Anything much over 30 gallons I do prefer to use some
mechanical
filtration.

I use a simple water pump ($5 at Agway) in a chamber in the center of the
tank with enough medium gravel to be level with, but not cover, the
opening.
Over the pump, resting on the surface of the gravel, I place a stone
ring -
I don't know what they're called; it's like a reddish molded stone? both
my
lfs and Petco always has them- entirely wrapped with java moss tied on
with
fishing line. The stone becomes colonized with bacteria. The pump pulls
the water through the gravel bed and pushes it through the java
moss-wrapped
bio ring. It's very effective, at least on the scale I've used it.

I don't have much experience with cichlids other than angels, but I've
found, and heard from others, that they pretty much ignore java moss. You
might also want to try Sagittaria subulata (even though it's western
hemisphere). Once established it will tolerate an incredible amount of
physical abuse and contributes disproportionately toward maintaining water
quality. I'd plant a really large, well-rooted clump to get it started,
though, as individual plants are prone to being dislodged by lively fish.

Plan on doing LOTS of water changes and I don't think you'll need to give
any unusual consideration to stocking levels. Good luck.

kush

LeighMo wrote in message
...
no filtration? Good luck.... fish poop... it needs to be cleaned..
filtered... whatever.... it's possible to have a non-filtered tank...
but
you can't put many fish in it... 5 maybe for a 75g....

I guess that's what the plants are for. But I think this will be a very
difficult project. A Walstead-style tank with Africans...

An
alternative would be to put 5 males of different families, and no
females...
that arrangement will only have a pecking order fight, maybe once, or
twice... and after it's established, no more fights...

That's an interesting idea. It would be pretty, but not very natural.
And I'd
worry about the tank being big enough for this. Malawi cichlids tend to
get
big. One 4" fish produces a lot more waste than four 1" fish. I
wouldn't
want
to keep several large fish without filtration. Plus, you'd need a much
larger
tank than you ordinarily would, if you're trying to go with no
filtration.
For
many Malawi species, 75 gallons is the minimum even with filtration.
Perhaps a
single breeding pair of some small, peaceful, monogamous species would
be
better? (Not that I can think of any at the moment. :-)

btw, Leigh is probably the foremost authority on plants around here...
99x
out of 100, if she says it, you can put your money on it...

Wow, thanks! But I'm sure that honor goes to the likes of Chuck or Tom.
I
just post more. :-D


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Okay, so the Ngara Flametails someone offerd me wont get too big? Ive seen sites
saying anywhere from 3 1/2 -6 1/2 inches as max size.

350X_Rider wrote:

not from where I have read, most, if not all peacocks, top out at 4.5" for a
large male.... mostly at the 4" range... mine are all under 4" and they're
almost a 1.5 year old...going on 2....

I used bigskycichlids.com for alot of my research, then there WAS this
fishrooms.com that had great pics of user tanks and their inhabitants, but
I've not seen it lately.. might have been pulled....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Heard Stuartgranti gets pretty big though.....like 7-8 inches...looking
for one
that stays in the 4" range.

350X_Rider wrote:

If you want red and blue species, try Aulonocara stuartgranti

but these are the ones I've either got, or getting...
Aulonocara baenschi - yellowish
have Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red"
Aulonocara lwanda
Aulonocara stuartgranti - almost any kind is gorgeous...
have Aulonocara stuartgranti "Maleri"

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Sorry...came off a little like an ass there....what type of peacocks
are
you
keeping? Thinking of adding some to the 55..so I'm looking for some
smaller
peacock species...with good blue/red coloration. Any ideas?

350X_Rider wrote:

my bad on the generalization... I have mostly peacocks, should have
been
more clear about that.... but my mbunas don't color up unless
they're
being
bothered though.... but that's typical mbunas....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...

3. you realize that it's just the males that have color, right?
Most
females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color...

Thats mostly in peacocks...in most Mbuna, the females are
colorful.
Many
species
have no sexual dimorphism, and many have totally different, but
equally
coulorful females (Ps. Salousoi, Ps. Lombardoi "Kenyi",
Melanchromis
"Chipokae",
etc.)

If you want info on Africans try the African Cichlid Resource
Forum,
or
you
could try Cichlid-forum.com. I currently have a 55 gallon set up,
with
8
Yellow
labs, and 6 tiger barbs...the tank is lightly planted..and the
only
thing
the
labs seem to do (bright yellow...females too..) is pick the algae
off
the
sword
leaves...

Rich

that one might get to 6" but not likely to get much bigger unless he's a
breeder, I've heard the breeders use bigger fish, to produce bigger fish...

not likely that a flametail will get to 6.5"


"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Okay, so the Ngara Flametails someone offerd me wont get too big? Ive seen
sites
saying anywhere from 3 1/2 -6 1/2 inches as max size.

350X_Rider wrote:

not from where I have read, most, if not all peacocks, top out at 4.5"
for a
large male.... mostly at the 4" range... mine are all under 4" and
they're
almost a 1.5 year old...going on 2....

I used bigskycichlids.com for alot of my research, then there WAS this
fishrooms.com that had great pics of user tanks and their inhabitants,
but
I've not seen it lately.. might have been pulled....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Heard Stuartgranti gets pretty big though.....like 7-8
inches...looking
for one
that stays in the 4" range.

350X_Rider wrote:

If you want red and blue species, try Aulonocara stuartgranti

but these are the ones I've either got, or getting...
Aulonocara baenschi - yellowish
have Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red"
Aulonocara lwanda
Aulonocara stuartgranti - almost any kind is gorgeous...
have Aulonocara stuartgranti "Maleri"

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...
Sorry...came off a little like an ass there....what type of
peacocks
are
you
keeping? Thinking of adding some to the 55..so I'm looking for
some
smaller
peacock species...with good blue/red coloration. Any ideas?

350X_Rider wrote:

my bad on the generalization... I have mostly peacocks, should
have
been
more clear about that.... but my mbunas don't color up unless
they're
being
bothered though.... but that's typical mbunas....

"Rich Conley" wrote in message
...

3. you realize that it's just the males that have color,
right?
Most
females
are a drab gray/brown earthy tone color...

Thats mostly in peacocks...in most Mbuna, the females are
colorful.
Many
species
have no sexual dimorphism, and many have totally different,
but
equally
coulorful females (Ps. Salousoi, Ps. Lombardoi "Kenyi",
Melanchromis
"Chipokae",
etc.)

If you want info on Africans try the African Cichlid Resource
Forum,
or
you
could try Cichlid-forum.com. I currently have a 55 gallon set
up,
with
8
Yellow
labs, and 6 tiger barbs...the tank is lightly planted..and the
only
thing
the
labs seem to do (bright yellow...females too..) is pick the
algae
off
the
sword
leaves...

Rich