#61   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2006, 02:37 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

Hobby test kits are nowhere near accurate.
==========================
So I've heard. The test kits that are accurate are hundreds of dollars,
therefore out of the question to purchase for many of us. We have to rely
on what we have, also assuming our fish are providing nitrate the plats can
use.


You don't need test kits. Read Tom's message again.



--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

  #62   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2006, 05:38 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-Lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?


wrote in message
ups.com...
OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost
of
shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not
available
in my area.


Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
They sell stump remover.


I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of
Canadian Tire. I even tried a health food store. They didn't have it
either. Most places carry fertilizers as mixes such as 5-10-5 or 10-10-10
etc or organic products such as bone mean or blood meal. In my outdoor
gardens I use some woodash from the fire place and regular garden mixes
above. I only found one place called Martin's, run by Mennonites that sold
Potash, Nitrates and Phos' separately.

You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.


I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
mentioned above.

1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.


It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the
mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is
no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem
products, I hesitate to purchase them.

For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.


But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem
products? No store will take plants with black-red algae even for free. My
pond plants are raised at pot-top water level so have no algae problems. Do
you mean adding extra NPK will kill off the algae like the Exel was supposed
to do? And if I add these other products then there will be a CO2 shortage
and I fear I'll be told to buy even more products to add that to the
water....... where does it end?

You obviously have enough $$$ to have hobbies like aquariums and plants
etc, so do not give me the poor me routine.


Yes, and I already spend a lot more on this hobby than I should.

That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.


I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not
even take them for free.

If I want something, I go get it.


As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't
work, so why would I believe these other products will work? Especially
without added CO2 gas forced into the tanks. If they don't work and get rid
of the red-black algae then what? More money down the drain and I'll be
told I did something "wrong" again. Then more products will be suggested?
I spend well over $120 on plants, the extra lighting for the tanks, the
Excel, iron and other "nutrients" and the new plants happily faded away.
Meanwhile the old plants kept right on trucking.

But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
that is true is all and not worth your time/$.


See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
products will work?

Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
get 500X less ferts.
That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
Ebay or Craig's list something.


If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2
which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but
slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.

We got brains, so putting them use to pay for something you want is not
too hard.
Our local plant club suspended memebership dues 2 years ago.
We generate all of our funds via plant sales to other clubs, local
folks, ebay, CL's, local fish societies that often do not have many
plants but pay well for them......
So membership is not an issue for new folks.


There is nothing like that were I live. We have a pond club but they don't
bother with aquarium plants.

You might want to piggy back on someone else local to share on the
shipping also......
You have many options and ways to get around the $ issue.
But that's up to you..........


See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate
to spend even more on products that will also fail to keep new and different
plants alive. The other expense would be to discard all the plants I have
and sterilize all the tanks to get rid of the black-red algae first. Then
start all over again with all new plants free of this RB algae plague - if
that's even possible. Then order all the "foods" from Greg and see what
happens...... if they fail as did the Seachem products I'll be told to
order a CO2 infuser so the plants can utilize all these foods. Or someone
will claim the four 40w tubes are all wrong and to purchase xxxxx brand
tubes. All I wanted was some new plants for a change and to get rid of the
RB algae, not get involved into an expensive major project with no guarantee
or certainty of succeeding.

I can't help notice you didn't mention lighting or CO2 injection when
recommending I use all these GregWatson additives/fertilizers.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*






  #63   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2006, 01:36 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Gill Pissman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:38:00 -0500, "Koi-Lo" ?@...բ wrote:


wrote in message
oups.com...
OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost
of
shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not
available
in my area.


Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
They sell stump remover.


I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of
Canadian Tire. I even tried a health food store. They didn't have it
either. Most places carry fertilizers as mixes such as 5-10-5 or 10-10-10
etc or organic products such as bone mean or blood meal. In my outdoor
gardens I use some woodash from the fire place and regular garden mixes
above. I only found one place called Martin's, run by Mennonites that sold
Potash, Nitrates and Phos' separately.


Oh and just because you live nthe USA do yu think you should have
special treatment. So ****ing what I live i the USA too and can get
any of the crap....real easy. Your just too ****ing lazy CArol, you
would rather propagate socks

You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.


I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
mentioned above.

You shit, yur too busy ****ing off and lying to do any legg work and
too chepa to call on a phone long distance perhaps

1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.


It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the
mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is
no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem
products, I hesitate to purchase them.


Like I said yur a cheap old bitch CArol

For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.


Too much work for CArol, She does not do anywhere near what she claims
she does its all talk no action

But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem
products? No store will take plants with black-red algae even for free. My
pond plants are raised at pot-top water level so have no algae problems. Do
you mean adding extra NPK will kill off the algae like the Exel was supposed
to do? And if I add these other products then there will be a CO2 shortage
and I fear I'll be told to buy even more products to add that to the
water....... where does it end?


Carol would rather argue and bitch than try

You obviously have enough $$$ to have hobbies like aquariums and plants
etc, so do not give me the poor me routine.


Carol has books full of excuses she can use.Yu have not heard a
fraction of her excuses yet..
Yes, and I already spend a lot more on this hobby than I should.

Then get the **** out of it Carol, yuyr presents certianly will not be
missed

That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.


It takes energy and effort neithe rof which carol possesses

I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not
even take them for free.Who would want crap fro yu carol if it even looks half assed like you do

If I want something, I go get it.


Carol waits for mushroom randy to shoplift it. and if it won;t fit in
his pockets she says its not needed.

As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't
work, so why would I believe these other products will work? Especially
without added CO2 gas forced into the tanks. If they don't work and get rid
of the red-black algae then what? More money down the drain and I'll be
told I did something "wrong" again. Then more products will be suggested?
I spend well over $120 on plants, the extra lighting for the tanks, the
Excel, iron and other "nutrients" and the new plants happily faded away.
Meanwhile the old plants kept right on trucking.


Your life is down the drain why not pour the money down there tool
But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
that is true is all and not worth your time


FREE is carols version of cheap...anything else is expensive

See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
products will work?


Because yu always cut corners and use improper items to achieve
desired results wh ich always fails miserably........POTASSIUM
CHLORIDE hahahahahaha
Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
get 500X less ferts.
That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
Ebay or Craig's list something.


It would take a credit card and carols cards are maxed out......

If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2
which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but
slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.


HOme brew CO 2 is easy to make and add and operate if
needed...dumbasss!

We got brains, so putting them use to pay for something you want is not
too hard.
Our local plant club suspended memebership dues 2 years ago.
We generate all of our funds via plant sales to other clubs, local
folks, ebay, CL's, local fish societies that often do not have many
plants but pay well for them......
So membership is not an issue for new folks.

Carol lacks brains, thats a guarantee as well as morales

There is nothing like that were I live. We have a pond club but they don't
bother with aquarium plants.

Yes there is, they keep it secret as no one wants yu in their
organizations. They elect their offiers they do not allow self
appointed officers or officials.

You might want to piggy back on someone else local to share on the
shipping also......


Yea carol and that doe snot mean doing it doggy style, but then again
she wou dhave to have a real friend, which she does not, only socks
and internet asociates.
You have many options and ways to get around the $ issue.
But that's up to you..........

Too much effort for CArol too easy to bitch and cry about it than do
something about it....Thats CArols way.

See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate
to spend even more on products that will also fail to keep new and different
plants alive. The other expense would be to discard all the plants I have
and sterilize all the tanks to get rid of the black-red algae first. Then
start all over again with all new plants free of this RB algae plague - if
that's even possible. Then order all the "foods" from Greg and see what
happens...... if they fail as did the Seachem products I'll be told to
order a CO2 infuser so the plants can utilize all these foods. Or someone
will claim the four 40w tubes are all wrong and to purchase xxxxx brand
tubes. All I wanted was some new plants for a change and to get rid of the
RB algae, not get involved into an expensive major project with no guarantee
or certainty of succeeding.


I can't help notice you didn't mention lighting or CO2 injection when
recommending I use all these GregWatson additives/fertilizers.


Face it Carol your just a ****ing dumbased carpet bagger from New York
City with a chip on her shoulder.............suffer bitch suffer.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #64   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2006, 06:33 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Marco Schwarz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

Hi..

It's in the APD archives. Many many times.


Thanks, Richard..! I didn't know but don't get out of
patience.. :-)
--
cu
Marco
  #65   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2006, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Marco Schwarz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

Hi..

Well, they are not dealing specifically with aquarium
either........


Sorry but those biologists are fish keepers, too.

I am specifically an Aquatic biologist


Yes.

and I deal
specifically with algae and aquatic weeds. Natural systems
are radically different than artifical ones like our
tanks. More variables...........


Well.., took notice of your link and several posts in public
databases. Thanks for all..!

Generalizing for all BGA's in natural systems?
That's too general and too complex to say.


See above-mentioned.

"Well known" does not imply they are right or
effective.......just that they are well known.......


:-) Those methods I described are of course effective, too.

Well, drive the NO3 down and see.


Well.., I've some personal experiences in avoiding (black
and other) algae and personally I don't miss them.

www.BarrReport.com


Interesting page I will study soon..! Thanks.
--
cu
Marco


  #66   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2006, 07:23 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
They sell stump remover.


I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of


Look for "stump remover". Read the label (or google the brand name).

You should be able to find one in a hardware store that contains
potassium nitrate. Most of them do.

KNOW (Potassium nitrate, saltpeter) used to be very very common and
on every drugstore shelf as it has human and animnal medicinal uses
but in a post 911 world this major component of gunpowder is now in
the "you may sign for it" category. Any drug store CAN get it for you
but it's stupid expensive.

But, it's still the only decent stump remover so try then route. It's
cheap in this form.

You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.


I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
mentioned above.


Muriate of potash is Potassium chloride which is seldom used in terrestrial
gardening and when it is, carefully, and is never used in aquatic gardening.

It's essentially, salt.

Salt is Sodium chloride and Potasium chloride is essentially the exact
same thing with potassium replacing sodium. It's sometimes used as a salt
substitute for people on low sodium diets.

In an aquarium you'd be driving the potassium too high and the deleterious
effects of that are pretty well understood and the chloride ions will
do plants no good.

1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.


It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the
mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is
no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem
products, I hesitate to purchase them.


I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had
no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.

But, ask people what has worked. You'll find a distinct lack of Potassium
chloride and a common element in succesfull aquatic gardens is the use of
potassium nitrate. This is about 10-15 years old now in constant and daily
use and you'd be hard pressed to find it's use earlier than that.

For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.


But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem
products?


Experience. Lots of it. By many people over a large number of years. The seachem
products work fine when properly used. Adding potassium chloride instead of
potassium nitrate is probably going to screw everthing up though, although it's
not a mistake I've heard of anybody making so far, so thanks for the data point.

That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.


I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not
even take them for free.


Typical. Try selling to hobbyists.

If I want something, I go get it.


As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't
work, so why would I believe these other products will work?


Asked an answered.

But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
that is true is all and not worth your time/$.


See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
products will work?


Asked and answered.

Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
get 500X less ferts.
That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
Ebay or Craig's list something.


If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2


I don't use CO2 on purpose. I know it'll work I've seen the (spectacular)
results and know I can get MUCH better plant grown (especially crypts) if
I use it, but being a luddite at heart I want to see how good I can get
without.

which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but
slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.


Not a good indicator given their chemical composition. Do you think the
poeple that have near-universally reported that it does do a nasty number
on alage are lying? As far as I can tell one other guy said it didn't
work for him but everybody else noted the was death on algae.

I've never tried excel without KNO3.

See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate


Carol - you bought the wrong chemical. Try the right ones that people
have had wondefull success with.

You've been asking for 4 months how to solve this problem and many
people have told you how and you've done something different and
it didn't work.

Try doing what people have found works. Try following the answers you've
been asking for instead of making stuff up.

Barring that, try prayer.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
  #67   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2006, 07:35 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
C. Gulley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:23:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
They sell stump remover.


I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of


Look for "stump remover". Read the label (or google the brand name).


They do not sell stump remover in Tennessee, They keep stumps so foks
like carols husband have stumps handy to stump break cows. Stumps are
a necessary tennesee item.

You should be able to find one in a hardware store that contains
potassium nitrate. Most of them do.


Carol already said they do not, can't you hear?

KNOW (Potassium nitrate, saltpeter) used to be very very common and
on every drugstore shelf as it has human and animnal medicinal uses
but in a post 911 world this major component of gunpowder is now in
the "you may sign for it" category. Any drug store CAN get it for you
but it's stupid expensive.


Ah, thats why carol does not want to find any, its also used ot keep
hard ons down, and the last thng carol wants is a soft noodle around.

But, it's still the only decent stump remover so try then route. It's
cheap in this form.


Told ya, stemps are need in the tenessee Mt. Juliet area for Randy and
the neighbors cows........

You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.


Carol steals her gas anyhow so gas is not a problem......

I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
mentioned above.


That w ill do it has the name potassium and thats good enough for
Carol

Muriate of potash is Potassium chloride which is seldom used in terrestrial
gardening and when it is, carefully, and is never used in aquatic gardening.

Yes but CArol uses it, remember......carol knows best.
It's essentially, salt.


Yea, its salt and CArol uses it for cooking also
Salt is Sodium chloride and Potasium chloride is essentially the exact
same thing with potassium replacing sodium. It's sometimes used as a salt
substitute for people on low sodium diets.


But we like full strength salt here...
In an aquarium you'd be driving the potassium too high and the deleterious
effects of that are pretty well understood and the chloride ions will
do plants no good.

1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.



Cheap ****ers
It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the
mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is
no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem
products, I hesitate to purchase them.


Too much money for CArol

I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had
no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.


But CArol knows best
But, ask people what has worked. You'll find a distinct lack of Potassium
chloride and a common element in succesfull aquatic gardens is the use of
potassium nitrate. This is about 10-15 years old now in constant and daily
use and you'd be hard pressed to find it's use earlier than that.

Carol does not give a flying **** what works she is driven by $$$$

For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.

A total of $1.00 is out of CArols budget....street corner blow jobs
are down so carols budget is history. She has had to drop her price
to 2 blow jobs for 25 cents and will swallow at least one of them.

But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem
products?


Dog shit mixed in at the ratio of 50:1

Experience. Lots of it. By many people over a large number of years. The seachem
products work fine when properly used. Adding potassium chloride instead of
potassium nitrate is probably going to screw everthing up though, although it's
not a mistake I've heard of anybody making so far, so thanks for the data point.


Carol has lots of experience, creating socks, lying, working the
street corners, and helping the motorcylce club members get their
wings.

That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.


Send me some for free and I'll telly9u how good it is.hjows that.I am
just a cheap bitch

I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not
even take them for free.


Typical. Try selling to hobbyists.

She even has problems giving away free lays.......

If I want something, I go get it.

Or HAve Randy go steal it.

As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't
work, so why would I believe these other products will work?

I am a fuctard, don't ya know

Asked an answered.

But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
that is true is all and not worth your time/$.


You have no business telling me what I can spend my street corner
money on.
See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
products will work?


Asked and answered.

Would fish guts work............or scrapings from a pap smear?

Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
get 500X less ferts.
That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
Ebay or Craig's list something.


If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2


I don't use CO2 on purpose. I know it'll work I've seen the (spectacular)
results and know I can get MUCH better plant grown (especially crypts) if
I use it, but being a luddite at heart I want to see how good I can get
without.

which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but
slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.


Not a good indicator given their chemical composition. Do you think the
poeple that have near-universally reported that it does do a nasty number
on alage are lying? As far as I can tell one other guy said it didn't
work for him but everybody else noted the was death on algae.

I've never tried excel without KNO3.

See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate


Carol - you bought the wrong chemical. Try the right ones that people
have had wondefull success with.

God dam it, CArol knows best, carol did not error in any way.you did
fool!

You've been asking for 4 months how to solve this problem and many
people have told you how and you've done something different and
it didn't work.

And she has so called fiddled with fish for 12 years and still does
not know a ****ing thing about them either. I thnk she really does not
have anay fish its just her vaginal smell makes folks think she has
fish, but actually she is saving yeast for baking bread for Randy the
Mushroom

Try doing what people have found works. Try following the answers you've
been asking for instead of making stuff up.


Carol is super at making things up now, at that she excells

Barring that, try prayer.

Thats the problem, CArol does not belive in gods of any
kind..........God killed her daddy and mommy, ruined her numerous
marraiges and took her ovaries....can you blame her..hahahahahaha


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from
http://www.teranews.com

  #68   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2006, 09:15 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-Lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?


"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Look for "stump remover". Read the label (or google the brand name).
KNOW (Potassium nitrate, saltpeter) used to be very very common and
on every drugstore shelf as it has human and animnal medicinal uses
but in a post 911 world this major component of gunpowder is now in
the "you may sign for it" category. Any drug store CAN get it for you
but it's stupid expensive.


I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the stores.

I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
mentioned above.


Muriate of potash is Potassium chloride which is seldom used in
terrestrial
gardening and when it is, carefully, and is never used in aquatic
gardening.
It's essentially, salt.


And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add
regular salt to my ponds.

Salt is Sodium chloride and Potasium chloride is essentially the exact
same thing with potassium replacing sodium. It's sometimes used as a salt
substitute for people on low sodium diets.


Understood. :-)

In an aquarium you'd be driving the potassium too high and the deleterious
effects of that are pretty well understood and the chloride ions will
do plants no good.


What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I
can add too much stump-remover as well (PN).

It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out
the
mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there
is
no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive
Seachem
products, I hesitate to purchase them.


I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had
no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.


That's exactly how I feel - yes.

But, ask people what has worked. You'll find a distinct lack of Potassium
chloride and a common element in succesfull aquatic gardens is the use of
potassium nitrate. This is about 10-15 years old now in constant and daily
use and you'd be hard pressed to find it's use earlier than that.


OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and phosphorus
in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was told
to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why do
this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see
what's so confusing here?

But what makes you believe these products will work better than the
Seachem
products?


Experience. Lots of it. By many people over a large number of years. The
seachem
products work fine when properly used. Adding potassium chloride instead
of
potassium nitrate is probably going to screw everthing up though, although
it's
not a mistake I've heard of anybody making so far, so thanks for the data
point.


PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and
ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products somehow
fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived of
this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP.

I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will
not
even take them for free.


Typical. Try selling to hobbyists.


What hobbyists? I live in a rural area far from any cities. I don't even
know any hobbyist here. The last one moved 5 years ago giving me her pond
and aquarium fish.

See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
products will work?


Asked and answered.


So you're claiming I was supposed to add more NITRATE using PNitrate after
being told there was TOO MUCH nitrate and to do all those massive water
changes and gravel vacuuming to REMOVE the nitrate. That the sodium Potash
doesn't work in aquariums - although it works in outdoor tubs and
ponds........

18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
Ebay or Craig's list something.


If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2


I don't use CO2 on purpose. I know it'll work I've seen the (spectacular)
results and know I can get MUCH better plant grown (especially crypts) if
I use it, but being a luddite at heart I want to see how good I can get
without.


So tell me EXACTLY what and how much you are adding or would add to 55g
tanks that contain 6 half grown goldfish, 2 tens with 2 small goldfish each
and a 10g with about 15 platys. All contain a few otos and the 55s contain
otos and 2 plecs each. If I don't do EXACTLY what you do and it fails I
don't want to hear I did something wrong, I added the wrong stuff, I added
the wrong amount, I didn't do any tests for too much of this or that, or
didn't do enough massive water changes to remove all the phos' and nitrate
etc, etc......... I'm not a chemist so how much would you add of each
product? How many gallons of water would you change per week? How much
gravel vacuuming do you do each week?

which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing
but
slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.


Not a good indicator given their chemical composition. Do you think the
poeple that have near-universally reported that it does do a nasty number
on alage are lying? As far as I can tell one other guy said it didn't
work for him but everybody else noted the was death on algae.


Why would I lie? Why would he lie? Did all those people it worked for have
our water conditions and fish load? How can we know that? I went and
bought 1g of the stuff plus all the other things recommended here. Add S&H
and it wasn't cheap. And I expected the algae to turn white.... and I
waited, and I waited and I waited and finally went and bought the plecos and
otos.

See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I
hesitate


Carol - you bought the wrong chemical. Try the right ones that people
have had wondefull success with.


I bought what I was told to buy. Why was the Seachem chemicals recommended
then? The one does contain Potassium.

You've been asking for 4 months how to solve this problem and many
people have told you how and you've done something different and
it didn't work.


I did what was recommend - see above. I bought what I was told to buy and I
bought them from Foster and Smith. No one said only GredWatson's products
worked - that the Seachem products shouldn't be used. I don't understand
this. Now I'm being told I should add a MORE nitrate (with the potash)
after being told NITRATE was part of the problem - that if I buy
GregWatsons's products including PONitrate the plants will flourish and the
RB algae will die........ where does all the Seachem "foods" come in then,
including the Excel?


Try doing what people have found works. Try following the answers you've
been asking for instead of making stuff up.


Making what stuff up? You mean I'm making up that I was told to do massive
water changes, that I was told to vacuum the gravel and stop feeding the
fish so much? That it was adding to the nitrate/phos load? I'm making
this all up about Excel supposedly turning RB algae white and making it fall
off the plants and glass? I made up that one of you told me that would
happen using Excel? What exactly am I making up here?

Barring that, try prayer.


Prayer? What should I pray for? Insulting me is not going to make me buy
your friends products when the other products recommend here didn't work.
--
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*





  #69   Report Post  
Old 01-07-2006, 06:12 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:
I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the stores.


Well there ya go then. The label should say what's in it, I *think* there's
one that doesn't have KNO3 but the rest do. You can goodle the brand
name as this has been discussed to death in ages past.

It's essentially, salt.


And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add
regular salt to my ponds.


Well you would;nt need to :-)

It'll help build up potassium and if your pond is potassium deficient it'll
do some good I guess if the chloride ions don't build up too much.

The old Tetra fertilizer was just potassium, in tanks with a high fish load
this is sometimes all you need, but only in very rare cases. Still the
chloride ion buildup is an issue without water changes.

What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I
can add too much stump-remover as well (PN).


I don't remember off hand, but people have had issues with it.

I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had
no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.


That's exactly how I feel - yes.


Yeah, it's a funny feeling but it goes away when you see what good it does.

The same checmicals that gave me great trepidation a year ago I now dump in
as routine and I haven't see that awful black algae since and remember I battled
it for 7 years and tried bleach, peroxide, you name it. When I quit being
so damn stubborn and just did that Tom Barr said and threw away my nitrate
test kit things starting looking like showcase planted tanks around here.

OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and phosphorus
in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was told
to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why do
this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see
what's so confusing here?


High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does. Tom and
I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does absolutely
not cause algae. In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing
product - algae grows very well.

PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and
ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products somehow
fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived of
this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP.


It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with
the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares?

Do the right thing and things will be fine.

1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically.
2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days
3) Fertilize properly.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
  #70   Report Post  
Old 02-07-2006, 04:47 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-Lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?


"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:
I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the
stores.


Well there ya go then. The label should say what's in it, I *think*
there's
one that doesn't have KNO3 but the rest do. You can goodle the brand
name as this has been discussed to death in ages past.


I can check at Lowe's and Home Depot as I have access to both stores plus
ACE Hardware.

It's essentially, salt.


And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add
regular salt to my ponds.


Well you would;nt need to :-)

It'll help build up potassium and if your pond is potassium deficient
it'll
do some good I guess if the chloride ions don't build up too much.


Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive.
The only plants I've had to die outside were the borderline hardies in
winter. I'm hoping my new greenhouse will keep them alive from now on. :-)
Someone offered us a free gas greenhouse heater for this winter. BTW, I add
it to the outdoor tanks the fish are in, and so far no problems. I don't
add the garden fertilizer to tanks with fish, just the Muriate of Potash.

The old Tetra fertilizer was just potassium, in tanks with a high fish
load
this is sometimes all you need, but only in very rare cases. Still the
chloride ion buildup is an issue without water changes.


Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.

What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I
can add too much stump-remover as well (PN).


I don't remember off hand, but people have had issues with it.


Since I don't know either I add it in small amounts since the Seachem
contains it.

I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and
had
no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.


That's exactly how I feel - yes.


Yeah, it's a funny feeling but it goes away when you see what good it
does.


Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will
definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to
add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate my
hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live and
flourish in the "wrong" water.

The same checmicals that gave me great trepidation a year ago I now dump
in
as routine and I haven't see that awful black algae since and remember I
battled
it for 7 years and tried bleach, peroxide, you name it. When I quit being
so damn stubborn and just did that Tom Barr said and threw away my nitrate
test kit things starting looking like showcase planted tanks around here.


I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine
are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.

OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and
phosphorus
in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was
told
to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why
do
this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see
what's so confusing here?


High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.


If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered
(especially the platy fry) and it would have shown on my test kits. Ammonia
always reads zero once the tanks cycle. And that's even after a filter
cleaning along with a gravel vac, major water change and Vortex polishing.

Tom and
I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does
absolutely
not cause algae.


So then what did? What was the ammonia reading at the time? If there was
ammonia, how did you keep the fish alive?

In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing
product - algae grows very well.


So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and
Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the
ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia come
in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae
appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I have
no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit.

PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and
ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products
somehow
fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived
of
this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP.


It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with
the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares?

Do the right thing and things will be fine.


And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using
them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?!
Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish products
would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test
kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to add
to my aquariums.

1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically.


Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos.

2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days


I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the
mirconutrients, the iron......

3) Fertilize properly.


I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from
Foster & Smith.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*









  #71   Report Post  
Old 02-07-2006, 05:26 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:

Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive.


And if you cut a frogs legs off and tell it to jump and it doesn't it's
obviously deaf.

Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.


No. Do the math.

Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will
definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to
add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate my
hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live and
flourish in the "wrong" water.


Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index whose
link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts.

I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine
are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.


Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here.

High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.


If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered


Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE
completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on
a kit, they're dead already.

(especially the platy fry) and it would have shown on my test kits. Ammonia
always reads zero once the tanks cycle. And that's even after a filter
cleaning along with a gravel vac, major water change and Vortex polishing.

Tom and
I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does
absolutely
not cause algae.


So then what did? What was the ammonia reading at the time? If there was
ammonia, how did you keep the fish alive?


Beats me, I don't test regualrly for ammonia. I've only tested once when I
fuond a flock of curled up shrimp causes by an ammonia spike when a lot
of new emersed crypts were added. Dead leaves cause a LOT of ammonia even
in a big tank.

In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing
product - algae grows very well.


So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and
Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the
ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia come
in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae
appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I have
no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit.


No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it.

PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and
ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products
somehow
fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived
of
this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP.


It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with
the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares?

Do the right thing and things will be fine.


And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using
them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?!


No, use them according to the formulas every body else has and does and
has success with that's been posted here hundreds of times the latest being
the day before yesterday.

Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish products
would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test
kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to add
to my aquariums.


You don't need any test kits.

1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically.


Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos.


Keep doing it.

2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days


I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the
mirconutrients, the iron......


You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3.

3) Fertilize properly.


I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from
Foster & Smith.


You are not adding nitrate. You need to.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
  #72   Report Post  
Old 02-07-2006, 04:49 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-Lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:

Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive.


And if you cut a frogs legs off and tell it to jump and it doesn't it's
obviously deaf.


Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as
seen on my website. ;-)

Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.


No. Do the math.


What math? You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85%
water changes. You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which
prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent
build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up?

Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will
definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to
add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate
my
hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live
and
flourish in the "wrong" water.


Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index
whose
link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts.


I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads and
different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do
better in hard alkaline water for you.

I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks.
Mine
are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.


Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here.


What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are
wrong?

High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.


If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered


Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE
completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on
a kit, they're dead already.


No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp.

In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing
product - algae grows very well.


So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and
Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the
ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia
come
in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae
appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I
have
no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit.


No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it.


I see. Then the biologists that had Phos' removed from detergents were all
wrong about Phos. It was really ammonia in these products that turned
lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the
algae went with it.

Do the right thing and things will be fine.


And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start
using
them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go
away?!?!?!


No, use them according to the formulas every body else has and does and
has success with that's been posted here hundreds of times the latest
being
the day before yesterday.


I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity...... it's
not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly
planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads.

Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish
products
would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test
kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to
add
to my aquariums.


You don't need any test kits.


Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove
"build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if
water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess?

1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically.


Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos.


Keep doing it.



2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days


I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the
mirconutrients, the iron......


You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3.


What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it. So you'e claiming
it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I
remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae? Just the opposite of what
scientists found to cause it in lakes and rivers. And ammonia still reads
zero. Geeze and I just started adding it (extra MofPo about 2 weeks ago).
The Seachem products and endless water changes had 5 months to work before
that and didn't do much more than turn some plants greener.

3) Fertilize properly.


I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from
Foster & Smith.


You are not adding nitrate. You need to.


How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g
tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my
news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also
since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it
could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*






  #73   Report Post  
Old 04-07-2006, 07:10 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?


Koi-Lo wrote:
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.


Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive.


This is an assumption, plants assimilate and take up Chloride, if you
remove any leaves etc, this exports Chloride out of the system as well
as any water changes, Seepage into the pond hydrosoil etc, dilution
from rain etc also influence this.

Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as
seen on my website. ;-)


I do not do any water changes on my dad's pond, I add 35-40% surface
coverage Hyacinth and the water is forever gin clear, this weed grows
and is scooped out to maintain roughly 30-50% coverage throughout the
growing season.
The plants export the salts, the nutrients etc.
Happy fish, happy plants.

If I did not remove the plants, they would over grow and choke the pond
and stop O2 exchange and kill the fish.

Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.

No. Do the math.

What math?


It's an infinite series. Look it up.
The APD also did some backgound on why the ppms never buld up if you do
water changes.

Basically if you do weekly 50% water changes and dose nutrients, say
NO3, if you dose 20ppm per week, the max build up possible will be
40ppm, that assumes no uptake by plants and no denitrification from
bacteria.

You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85%
water changes.


Nor 1/3 or 50% weekly changes, you have a wider range with less % of
the total tank volume obviously, but 2x the total is a decent working %
to use.

You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which
prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent
build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up?


Ahhh, not sure what you are saying here.
Semantics perhaps.......

Richard sez:
Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index
whose
link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts.


I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads and
different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do
better in hard alkaline water for you.


This is no surprise at all since most submersed plants are carbon
limited and hard water has more total carbon available to provide the
plants with.
So soft water has little HCO3, which the plants can use if the CO2 is
low and is normally the case.

If you add CO2 to hard water, the plants will use that first though.

Bowes and Van (UF) did a nice study that showed 3 submersed plants grew
at a faster rate at harder KH's and higher pH's.
Their conclusions was what I mentioned.

I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks.
Mine
are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.


Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here.


What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are
wrong?


Perhaps, but overloaded tanks clearly have lots of algae. You can add
everything else that fish waste produces, NO3, K, PO4, traces etc and
never induce algae.

The only thing missing is the urea(which is quickly converted to NH4 in
water) and NH4.
These big old turds the fish produce might not measure anything in the
water column, but down on the gravel sitting there, it is a nice rich
place and also where the algae spores are waiting for some nice rich
NH4 to get started to grow well.

So the NH4 is used up before the test kit can measure it often times,
and after the fact as you see the aftermath of the algae bloom and are
not monitoring it prior to the bloom.........by then the algae has
goobled up most of the NH4 and the bacterial colony has increased in
size.

This is why you cannot use fish waste alone to run a much faster
growing tank using CO2 and good lighting etc, the tank has too much
NH4, not so much that harms fish, rather, enough to induce the algae
spores.

Once they are germinated, much like a weed, they will hang on and use
NO3 and other nutrients.


High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.
If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered


Well, inducing algae spores and fish health NH4 levels are quite
different.
Do not confuse the two.

Fish will die depending on their life stages and species over a wider
range, algae need little NH4 present to start germinating to produce a
bloom.

Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE
completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on
a kit, they're dead already.


No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp.


You do not need them to grow algae free tanks full of weeds.

So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae?


No, the NH4 did.
Low PO4 will stop the plant growth, it will not stop the algae growth
which will not be limited until you get down to the parts per billion
ranges of 20ppb or 10ppm or so, and that range is subjected to a error
of 10ppb............

You do not own a test kit nor use a methid that can do this, no water
quality lab is even capable of this as a rule, a few places at research
centers can measure this low and they still have errors of 3-8ppb.

So you cannot limit algae via PO4 even if you wanted to when you have
aquatic plants present.

The plants temselves are huge sources of PO4 and store lots in tissues,
which if they are stunted and not growing, are decomposing, leeching
and rotting, giving off small amounts of NH4/PO4.

High nitrate and
Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the
ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia
come
in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae
appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I
have
no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit.


See above.

No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it.


I see. Then the biologists that had Phos' removed from detergents were all
wrong about Phos.


No, you are comparing apples and oranges.
What are we talking about here?
Shallow fully planted lakes?
You add PO4 to an other wise PO4 limited lake like that and you will
not get algae, you will get more weeds!

That's why aquatic weeds are such a serious issue!!!
They spend billions on dealing with them due to this very reason.

Search Bachmann,Canfield Hoyer and trophic status of Florida lakes
(1984 to 2005 or so, there are several papers), which....are BTW,
shallow, fully planted, subtropical(fairly warm and most of the year).

Adding PO4 also changes the native plants, such as the Jamacian grass,
Cladium to Typha(cattail) in the Everglades, no algae issues(less algae
actually) due to the increase in PO4 levels.

This is the center of the Evergalde restoration project which is a
Billions of $$$ project.
How do you remove millions of tones of PO4 and be cost effective with
the techonolgy you have? Not an easy question nor answer.

I am a Biologist BTW and I deal specifically with aquatic weeds in my
research and algae is also something I have a good understanding and
passion for.

It was really ammonia in these products that turned
lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the
algae went with it.


Did these rivers, streams and lakes have plants?
Did they have 30-50% coverage or greater?
Did they freeze each winter?
You'll note the never said much about that:-)

If you leave that part out, you set yourself up for some very poor
assumptions.........

The more basic method is to simply try adding PO to fully planted tank
with high levels of of the other nutrients nd see what ahppens under
limited levels of PO4 and then add say 2ppm PO4.

There is no algae induced.

I do not care if you believe me or do the research, simply try it and
see for yourself, then you'll know.

I think they should ban PO4 but they should also ban NO3 and fertilizer
run off from farms as well, that's killing the rivers, they can utilize
created wetlands along the MS river and reduce the load way down.

And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start
using
them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go
away?!?!?!


Well, some users have trouble, but few.
Most are amazed.

Do you add fertilizers to the gardern(organic or otherwise) or if you
owned a farm?
If you want the plants to grow for more than a season or two you will.

I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity...... it's
not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly
planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads.


Assume fully planted, the more plants, the less chance you will have
algae.
Less light, at leats down to a point, is better also.
This means slower more mangable growth, less CO2 demand, less NO3, K+
etc is needed.

Are you adding CO2 or not?
I can give you precise amounts if you say how planted the tanks are and
if you use CO2 or not.

You don't need any test kits.


Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove
"build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if
water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess?


The water changes will prevent and build up. I think Richard and you
mixed that one up, I know Richard meant to say that large water changes
prevents a build up.

I do not know how much K+, NO3, PO4 etc will cause algae.
Fish die first at 120ppm + of KNO3, about 50% of the Amano shrimps died
after 3 full days of that. Fish where still fine though(Wild SA fish).

I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the
mirconutrients, the iron......


You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3.


What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it.


Add KNO3 instead of KCL.

So you'e claiming
it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I
remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae?


Well, let me ask you something .................would you enjoy being
packed into a bathroom with 10 folks and not flushing the toilet for a
week?
Why overload a fish tank?

Be reasonable about your stocking levels, big dirty cichlids, flithy
dirt producing goldfish etc, they are not the same as a few
tetras.............

Reduced feedings, reduce stocking levels, happier place for fish and
happier place for the plants.

Larger tank etc.
You can add lots of filter etc, do lots of water changes like Discus
folks do........
Goldfish are tough animals........but does not mean you should abuse
them.

Give them a happy home.
The base of the ecosystem is the plants, not the fish.

Just the opposite of what
scientists found to cause it in lakes and rivers. And ammonia still reads
zero. Geeze and I just started adding it (extra MofPo about 2 weeks ago).
The Seachem products and endless water changes had 5 months to work before
that and didn't do much more than turn some plants greener.


I'm a scientist and the lakes and river issue would be great if weeds
did not grow.......but they do and they grow extremely fast when
provided with rich nutrients..........but if you have no weeds there,
turbid water where no light can get to, frozen lakes, very low % of the
lake infested with the weeds, then algae will take up the slack.

Well, those are pretty weak ferts also.
You need more and CO2/Excel.

You are not adding nitrate. You need to.


How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g
tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my
news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also
since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it
could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks.


I think there is some misnderstanding there.

Say if you use CO2 or Excel or not and I'll go from there.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*


  #74   Report Post  
Old 05-07-2006, 08:53 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-Lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Alge?


wrote in message
ups.com...

Koi-Lo wrote:
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.


Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants
thrive.


This is an assumption, plants assimilate and take up Chloride, if you
remove any leaves etc, this exports Chloride out of the system as well
as any water changes, Seepage into the pond hydrosoil etc, dilution
from rain etc also influence this.

Whatever they're doing with it, they're thriving. These are lined ponds so
there is no soil bottom to seep into. Rain would act like an indoor water
change. Even with a heavy rain-fall there is seldom runoff because of
evaporation. My ponds and outdoor tanks are seldom full to the top.

Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as
seen on my website. ;-)


I do not do any water changes on my dad's pond, I add 35-40% surface
coverage Hyacinth and the water is forever gin clear, this weed grows
and is scooped out to maintain roughly 30-50% coverage throughout the
growing season.
The plants export the salts, the nutrients etc.
Happy fish, happy plants.

* Because of the koi and goldfish eating the roots, water hyacinth will not
live in my ponds.

If I did not remove the plants, they would over grow and choke the pond
and stop O2 exchange and kill the fish.

Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.

No. Do the math.

What math?


It's an infinite series. Look it up.

* I don't know what an infinite series is to look it up.

The APD also did some backgound on why the ppms never buld up if you do
water changes.

* Please read what your friend said in his message above.

Basically if you do weekly 50% water changes and dose nutrients, say
NO3, if you dose 20ppm per week, the max build up possible will be
40ppm, that assumes no uptake by plants and no denitrification from
bacteria.

You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85%
water changes.


Nor 1/3 or 50% weekly changes, you have a wider range with less % of
the total tank volume obviously, but 2x the total is a decent working %
to use.

You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which
prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent
build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up?


Ahhh, not sure what you are saying here.
Semantics perhaps.......

* Not semantics.... That's what he claimed and why I can't understand what
he posts.

Richard sez:
Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index
whose
link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts.


I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads
and
different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do
better in hard alkaline water for you.


This is no surprise at all since most submersed plants are carbon
limited and hard water has more total carbon available to provide the
plants with.
So soft water has little HCO3, which the plants can use if the CO2 is
low and is normally the case.

If you add CO2 to hard water, the plants will use that first though.

* Ok, when I find or meet someone here who has sof****er acid loving plants
thriving in our hard alkaline water I would consider buying some. I never
even met another aquarist who added CO2 to their tanks to keep plants alive.

Bowes and Van (UF) did a nice study that showed 3 submersed plants grew
at a faster rate at harder KH's and higher pH's.
Their conclusions was what I mentioned.

I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks.
Mine
are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.


Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here.


What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are
wrong?


Perhaps, but overloaded tanks clearly have lots of algae. You can add
everything else that fish waste produces, NO3, K, PO4, traces etc and
never induce algae.

* So what you mean is if you add even MORE plant food (fertilizers) the
algae someone overeats and dies? Or the excess poisons it? Or do you have
to purchase a load more plants to soak it up... all guessing since you
already said test kids were unnecessary.

The only thing missing is the urea(which is quickly converted to NH4 in
water) and NH4.
These big old turds the fish produce might not measure anything in the
water column, but down on the gravel sitting there, it is a nice rich
place and also where the algae spores are waiting for some nice rich
NH4 to get started to grow well.

* And where the plant roots are also waiting for some nice rich manure to
fall.......

So the NH4 is used up before the test kit can measure it often times,
and after the fact as you see the aftermath of the algae bloom and are
not monitoring it prior to the bloom.........by then the algae has
goobled up most of the NH4 and the bacterial colony has increased in
size.
This is why you cannot use fish waste alone to run a much faster
growing tank using CO2 and good lighting etc, the tank has too much
NH4, not so much that harms fish, rather, enough to induce the algae
spores.

* But I wasn't using CO2 when the algae invaded these tanks.

Once they are germinated, much like a weed, they will hang on and use
NO3 and other nutrients.

* Then why was I told to buy Excel and all those other products when they
didn't, wouldn't and couldn't turn algae white and make it fall off?

High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.
If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered


Well, inducing algae spores and fish health NH4 levels are quite
different.
Do not confuse the two.
Fish will die depending on their life stages and species over a wider
range, algae need little NH4 present to start germinating to produce a
bloom.

* Then that means all fish must be removed except a few tiny ones, to
prevent ammonia to feed the algae.

Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE
completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on
a kit, they're dead already.


No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp.


You do not need them to grow algae free tanks full of weeds.

* Then someone has to tell me how much, how often, what mixture, how many
tiny fish per 55g tank etc. to get rid of the algae and stop pushing the
baloney that Excel turns it white and makes it fall off everything.
There's quite a difference in the storys I'm getting on how to get rid of
algae. I'm not a chemist or mathematician so have no idea how how you
figure out how much ammonia comes from one GF weighing so many grams so
therefore I need to add so much Phos and Potash.......

So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae?


No, the NH4 did.
Low PO4 will stop the plant growth, it will not stop the algae growth
which will not be limited until you get down to the parts per billion
ranges of 20ppb or 10ppm or so, and that range is subjected to a error
of 10ppb............

* So to get rid of the ammonia and have algae free plants one must get rid
of their ammonia producing fish.

You do not own a test kit nor use a methid that can do this, no water
quality lab is even capable of this as a rule, a few places at research
centers can measure this low and they still have errors of 3-8ppb.
So you cannot limit algae via PO4 even if you wanted to when you have
aquatic plants present.
The plants temselves are huge sources of PO4 and store lots in tissues,
which if they are stunted and not growing, are decomposing, leeching
and rotting, giving off small amounts of NH4/PO4.

* I see.

No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it.


This is the center of the Evergalde restoration project which is a
Billions of $$$ project.
How do you remove millions of tones of PO4 and be cost effective with
the techonolgy you have? Not an easy question nor answer.

I am a Biologist BTW and I deal specifically with aquatic weeds in my
research and algae is also something I have a good understanding and
passion for.

* Ok so it comes down to finding a
mathematician/scientist/biologist/horticulturist to figure out what I need
to add to my tanks in the way of "foods" to starve out the algae - taking
into consideration how many fish I have, my lighting, water PH and hardness,
the plants already present and whatever else they would need to know to come
up with the correct or near correct amounts. To puchase even more products
and use them willy-nilly-guess-as-you-go is crazy. I have all these Seachem
products that did nothing but turn the plants a deeper green that were
already thriving, while all the new plants faded away.....

It was really ammonia in these products that turned
lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the
algae went with it.


Did these rivers, streams and lakes have plants?
Did they have 30-50% coverage or greater?
Did they freeze each winter?
You'll note the never said much about that:-)

* I have no idea but most lakes and rivers I have seen have quite a few
marginal plants. I know of no floaters here in the northern states.

If you leave that part out, you set yourself up for some very poor
assumptions.........
The more basic method is to simply try adding PO to fully planted tank
with high levels of of the other nutrients nd see what ahppens under
limited levels of PO4 and then add say 2ppm PO4.

* Google says PO is Polonium . Do you mean Potash?

There is no algae induced.
I do not care if you believe me or do the research, simply try it and
see for yourself, then you'll know.

* So I should buy nitrate and phos and potash and add high amounts - just
guessing since I have no way to figure out how much to use.

I think they should ban PO4 but they should also ban NO3 and fertilizer
run off from farms as well, that's killing the rivers, they can utilize
created wetlands along the MS river and reduce the load way down.

* Without fertilizers the crops would be a waste.

And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start
using
them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go
away?!?!?!


Well, some users have trouble, but few.
Most are amazed.

* How do they know how much to use per tank or do they not keep fish?

Do you add fertilizers to the gardern(organic or otherwise) or if you
owned a farm?
If you want the plants to grow for more than a season or two you will.

* I use regular garden fertalizers accourding to bag.

I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity......
it's
not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly
planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads.


Assume fully planted, the more plants, the less chance you will have
algae.
Less light, at leats down to a point, is better also.
This means slower more mangable growth, less CO2 demand, less NO3, K+
etc is needed.

* I use four 40w fluorescencents on the 55s because I don't like the looks
of the toilet-bowl brown diatoms.

Are you adding CO2 or not?
I can give you precise amounts if you say how planted the tanks are and
if you use CO2 or not.

* No. I only use Excel. When it's gone I'm not buying more since it failed
to turn the algae white as promised and does nothing for the plants that I
can see.

You don't need any test kits.


Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove
"build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if
water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess?


The water changes will prevent and build up. I think Richard and you
mixed that one up, I know Richard meant to say that large water changes
prevents a build up.

* Some of his messages totally confuse and frustrate me.

I do not know how much K+, NO3, PO4 etc will cause algae.
Fish die first at 120ppm + of KNO3, about 50% of the Amano shrimps died
after 3 full days of that. Fish where still fine though(Wild SA fish).

* I plan to pick some up at Lowe's or HD as soon as I go into town.

I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel,
the
mirconutrients, the iron......


You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3.


What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it.


Add KNO3 instead of KCL.

* I don't have any - anyway all the new plants are about gone. The old
standards are still plugging away as they've done for years now. ;-) I'll
try and find it locally since S&H ($12 to $18) are more than the product
from Greg.

So you'e claiming
it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I
remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae?


Well, let me ask you something .................would you enjoy being
packed into a bathroom with 10 folks and not flushing the toilet for a
week? Why overload a fish tank?

* They're not overloaded. They're at the recommended number - 5 goldfish
for a 55g tank. We call that the maximum.

Be reasonable about your stocking levels, big dirty cichlids, flithy
dirt producing goldfish etc, they are not the same as a few
tetras.............
Reduced feedings, reduce stocking levels, happier place for fish and
happier place for the plants.
Larger tank etc.
You can add lots of filter etc, do lots of water changes like Discus
folks do........
Goldfish are tough animals........but does not mean you should abuse
them.

* Exactly! 5 GF are the recommended number for a 55g tank. As they get
even larger I will remove one or two more per tank.

Give them a happy home.
The base of the ecosystem is the plants, not the fish.

Well, those are pretty weak ferts also.
You need more and CO2/Excel.

* Yes I know. That's why I bought the micronutrients and iron.

You are not adding nitrate. You need to.


How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g
tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my
news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also
since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it
could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks.


I think there is some misnderstanding there.

Say if you use CO2 or Excel or not and I'll go from there.

* I'm using Excel at the recommended dose, the iron and the micros.......
Thanks

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*






Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Sting Alge is comming Dude Ponds 8 21-04-2005 03:18 PM
string alge REBEL JOE Ponds 3 04-09-2003 12:02 PM
hair alge? Zach987987987 Freshwater Aquaria Plants 6 20-04-2003 06:22 AM
String Alge [email protected] Ponds 5 10-03-2003 07:12 AM
hair alge? Zach987987987 Freshwater Aquaria Plants 7 12-02-2003 01:19 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:25 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 GardenBanter.co.uk.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Gardening"

 

Copyright © 2017