All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.

B

--
Brian Heller

It is easier to tame wild beasts
than to conquer the human mind.

Brian wrote in message
...
All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.

Yes.

However, warm water probably isn't the proximate cause. Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Phosphate is a more likely root cause. Temp makes
everything cold blooded, and one-celled, "go faster".

Search the web for PMDD, or "Poor Mans Dupla Drops". Not so
much for the formula, but it's development came from quite a
bit of interesting research regarding algae.

Bottom line, higher plants apparently store Phosphate, algae
(being a 1 celled plant) has no place to store anything. If
you maintain 0 Phosphate - algae can't get any. When tiny
peaks happen (like feeding time), the "hungry" higher plants
suck it out in far before algae "grow into it".

Floating Hornwort, is my answer (bill has Phosphate in his
tap - that makes bill sad) and good light. And, yea, use
PMDD if you use fert at all. When you toss a handful of
Hornwort, the key is you're tossing a chunk of Phosphate.
Neat thing about it, when your water is in trouble it grows
"real fast" and both sucks nutrient and shades the lower
tank. Keep a tastefully blob bobbing around, if it starts
to "explode", let it. When the top of your tank is well
covered, to some depth, yank half. The deeper you let it
grow, the faster the process works.

If you yank once a week, you will eventually notice a week
were the top didn't end up covered. Let that go another
week, the yank half. Soon you'll notice it takes quite a
few weeks to cover the tank. Now you can prune back and
maintain a more tastefully sized clump.

Arg, a tank 1/3 full of Hornwort, yuck. Well, choose,
Hornwort once and again, or algae full time.

******************************
Dunter Powries wrote:
Brian wrote in message
...

All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.


Yes.

However, warm water probably isn't the proximate cause. Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Phosphate is a more likely root cause. Temp makes
everything cold blooded, and one-celled, "go faster".

Search the web for PMDD, or "Poor Mans Dupla Drops". Not so
much for the formula, but it's development came from quite a
bit of interesting research regarding algae.

Bottom line, higher plants apparently store Phosphate, algae
(being a 1 celled plant) has no place to store anything. If
you maintain 0 Phosphate - algae can't get any. When tiny
peaks happen (like feeding time), the "hungry" higher plants
suck it out in far before algae "grow into it".

Floating Hornwort, is my answer (bill has Phosphate in his
tap - that makes bill sad) and good light. And, yea, use
PMDD if you use fert at all. When you toss a handful of
Hornwort, the key is you're tossing a chunk of Phosphate.
Neat thing about it, when your water is in trouble it grows
"real fast" and both sucks nutrient and shades the lower
tank. Keep a tastefully blob bobbing around, if it starts
to "explode", let it. When the top of your tank is well
covered, to some depth, yank half. The deeper you let it
grow, the faster the process works.

If you yank once a week, you will eventually notice a week
were the top didn't end up covered. Let that go another
week, the yank half. Soon you'll notice it takes quite a
few weeks to cover the tank. Now you can prune back and
maintain a more tastefully sized clump.

Arg, a tank 1/3 full of Hornwort, yuck. Well, choose,
Hornwort once and again, or algae full time.

******************************
Dunter Powries wrote:
Brian wrote in message
...

All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.


Yes.

However, warm water probably isn't the proximate cause. Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Phosphate is a more likely root cause. Temp makes
everything cold blooded, and one-celled, "go faster".

Search the web for PMDD, or "Poor Mans Dupla Drops". Not so
much for the formula, but it's development came from quite a
bit of interesting research regarding algae.

Bottom line, higher plants apparently store Phosphate, algae
(being a 1 celled plant) has no place to store anything. If
you maintain 0 Phosphate - algae can't get any. When tiny
peaks happen (like feeding time), the "hungry" higher plants
suck it out in far before algae "grow into it".

Floating Hornwort, is my answer (bill has Phosphate in his
tap - that makes bill sad) and good light. And, yea, use
PMDD if you use fert at all. When you toss a handful of
Hornwort, the key is you're tossing a chunk of Phosphate.
Neat thing about it, when your water is in trouble it grows
"real fast" and both sucks nutrient and shades the lower
tank. Keep a tastefully blob bobbing around, if it starts
to "explode", let it. When the top of your tank is well
covered, to some depth, yank half. The deeper you let it
grow, the faster the process works.

If you yank once a week, you will eventually notice a week
were the top didn't end up covered. Let that go another
week, the yank half. Soon you'll notice it takes quite a
few weeks to cover the tank. Now you can prune back and
maintain a more tastefully sized clump.

Arg, a tank 1/3 full of Hornwort, yuck. Well, choose,
Hornwort once and again, or algae full time.

******************************
Dunter Powries wrote:
Brian wrote in message
...

All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.


Yes.

However, warm water probably isn't the proximate cause. Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Phosphate is a more likely root cause. Temp makes
everything cold blooded, and one-celled, "go faster".

Search the web for PMDD, or "Poor Mans Dupla Drops". Not so
much for the formula, but it's development came from quite a
bit of interesting research regarding algae.

Bottom line, higher plants apparently store Phosphate, algae
(being a 1 celled plant) has no place to store anything. If
you maintain 0 Phosphate - algae can't get any. When tiny
peaks happen (like feeding time), the "hungry" higher plants
suck it out in far before algae "grow into it".

Floating Hornwort, is my answer (bill has Phosphate in his
tap - that makes bill sad) and good light. And, yea, use
PMDD if you use fert at all. When you toss a handful of
Hornwort, the key is you're tossing a chunk of Phosphate.
Neat thing about it, when your water is in trouble it grows
"real fast" and both sucks nutrient and shades the lower
tank. Keep a tastefully blob bobbing around, if it starts
to "explode", let it. When the top of your tank is well
covered, to some depth, yank half. The deeper you let it
grow, the faster the process works.

If you yank once a week, you will eventually notice a week
were the top didn't end up covered. Let that go another
week, the yank half. Soon you'll notice it takes quite a
few weeks to cover the tank. Now you can prune back and
maintain a more tastefully sized clump.

Arg, a tank 1/3 full of Hornwort, yuck. Well, choose,
Hornwort once and again, or algae full time.

******************************
Dunter Powries wrote:
Brian wrote in message
...

All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.


Yes.

However, warm water probably isn't the proximate cause. Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Hi Brian

I have also wondered if temps affect bga. Maybe it contributes a tad but I
think BGA is also affected by water quality and the build up of DOC. Do a
hefty water change, twice a week if the BGA is bad. I once had a tank that
was taken over by this stuff. If your tank is very new this might also
contribute to it. As always, YMMV.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


"Brian" wrote in message
...
All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.

B

--
Brian Heller

It is easier to tame wild beasts
than to conquer the human mind.

Bill Kirkpatrick wrote in message . ..
Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

God does not play dice and I don't get BGA so I don't accept no#1.

Excess NO3?In terms of what? For the BGA? They live abd bloom in water
with 0.1ppm of NO3 no problem at all. So unless it's 50-75ppm etc,
enough to seriously destablize a tank, I don't buy no2# either.

BGA and most other algae appear when something runs out, rather than
somethuing becoming excessive.

Phosphate is a more likely root cause. Temp makes
everything cold blooded, and one-celled, "go faster".

PO4 causes BGA?
That's simply wrong.

Search the web for PMDD, or "Poor Mans Dupla Drops". Not so
much for the formula, but it's development came from quite a
bit of interesting research regarding algae.

But the assumption made about excesses causing algae is wrong.

Bottom line, higher plants apparently store Phosphate, algae
(being a 1 celled plant) has no place to store anything.

You are wrong.
Many/most species of algae can store PO4 for up to 100 generations and
survive at far below limiting conditions for plants.

If
you maintain 0 Phosphate - algae can't get any.

Oh yes they can. Fish food, and plant leeching is plenty for algae.
They might slow down some, but they will still grow fine, BGA is no
exception.

When tiny
peaks happen (like feeding time), the "hungry" higher plants
suck it out in far before algae "grow into it".

A "sick" plant gthat does not have it's growth and mainteance nutrient
requirements not being met is not going to "eat".
If the plant has what it needs to grow well, then it will do well and
the algae will not.
Plants need far more nutrients relative to biomass than algae.

It's like having a mouse and an Elephant and feeding both the same
amount and then deciding to feed less. Which will starve?

Floating Hornwort, is my answer (bill has Phosphate in his
tap - that makes bill sad)

I had it(PO4) for decade, I loved it and so did my plants.

and good light. And, yea, use
PMDD if you use fert at all. When you toss a handful of
Hornwort, the key is you're tossing a chunk of Phosphate.
Neat thing about it, when your water is in trouble it grows
"real fast" and both sucks nutrient and shades the lower
tank. Keep a tastefully blob bobbing around, if it starts
to "explode", let it. When the top of your tank is well
covered, to some depth, yank half. The deeper you let it
grow, the faster the process works.

Getting the plants to grow better will help,but the cause is wrong.

Adding KNO3 regularly will generally cure BGA after you kill it off
first by doing a 3 day blackout, combined with 2 dosings after 50%
water changes right before and right after a blackout. Then regular
routine dosing of KNO3.

Plants don't grow well when they don't have enough GH, CO2, NO3, PO4,
K+, and traces, you add these regularly, along with weekly water
changes, this prevents anything from building up too high, and the the
frequent 2-3x a week dosings will prevent anything from running out.

Good plant growth = no algae.

Regards,
Tom Barr


If you yank once a week, you will eventually notice a week
were the top didn't end up covered. Let that go another
week, the yank half. Soon you'll notice it takes quite a
few weeks to cover the tank. Now you can prune back and
maintain a more tastefully sized clump.

Arg, a tank 1/3 full of Hornwort, yuck. Well, choose,
Hornwort once and again, or algae full time.

******************************
Dunter Powries wrote:
Brian wrote in message
...

All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.


Yes.

However, warm water probably isn't the proximate cause. Principal causes of
BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Funny you asked that. I recently lowered my tank temp from 74ish to 72ish
and my algae has significantly been reduce/slowed.. Maybe just
coincidence...but I like the way it's working out!

Troy
"Brian" wrote in message
...
All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.

B

--
Brian Heller

It is easier to tame wild beasts
than to conquer the human mind.

Funny you asked that. I recently lowered my tank temp from 74ish to 72ish
and my algae has significantly been reduce/slowed.. Maybe just
coincidence...but I like the way it's working out!

Troy
"Brian" wrote in message
...
All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae? Blue-green
algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae than usual, with
no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.

B

--
Brian Heller

It is easier to tame wild beasts
than to conquer the human mind.

Troy Bruder wrote:
Funny you asked that. I recently lowered my tank temp from 74ish to
72ish and my algae has significantly been reduce/slowed.. Maybe just
coincidence...but I like the way it's working out!

Troy
"Brian" wrote in message
...
All else being equal, will warmer water produce more algae?
Blue-green algae in particular? Just curious, as I have more algae
than usual, with no other parameter changes I know of besides temp.

B

--
Brian Heller

It is easier to tame wild beasts
than to conquer the human mind.

Blue green algae isn't, it is a bacteria. It can live anywhere, at any
temperature and is even found at high altitudes in the atmosphere.

If you want to read more about it have a look here.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanolh.html

I found out a lot about it when our local trout fishery was closed down
because of it, my daughter, who is a microbiologist, looked up some of it
for me and I found the rest.

Google search on Cyanobacteria for plenty more info.



--
Don`t Worry, Be Happy

Sandy
--

E-Mail:-
Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk
IRC:- Sandyb in #rabble uk3.arcnet.vapor.com Port:6667
#Rabble Channel Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk/rabbled
ICQ : 41266150

wrote:
Bill Kirkpatrick wrote in message . ..

Principal causes of

BGA are 1) dumb luck and 2) excess nitrates.

Excess NO3?In terms of what?

You're preaching to the choir, perhaps reply to the post
that made the claim. Everyone ends up inoculated with BGA,
and BGA doesn't care about NO3 - it will fix it's own nitrogen.


BGA and most other algae appear when something runs out, rather than
somethuing becoming excessive.

Eh? Life is a constructive process. It frankly doesn't care
if, or when, "something runs out" if it has no biological
use for that particular "something". Thus, BGA, or anything
else, simply cannot grow for LACK of a required component.

PO4 causes BGA?

Ok, "Cause" was too strong. Technically, BGA "causes" BGA.
P only helps it along, and research suggests P is one of
the inputs through which it can be limited.

NO3 is surely not limiting for BGA. But anything that the
higher plants can store can likely be used as a limiter.
Some of the traces, perhaps. Run an iron poor tank, spike
once in a while, just near the point your higher plants show
chlorosis.

P is a good choice because it is a macro. Plants and algae
need "lots" of it, relatively speaking. Thus it might be
considered easier to limit.

That's simply wrong.

Really? You have science to share?

Search the web for PMDD, or "Poor Mans Dupla Drops". Not so
much for the formula, but it's development came from quite a
bit of interesting research regarding algae.


But the assumption made about excesses causing algae is wrong.

Well, let's define excess. Greater than 0. Phosphate is a
required component for life. If you have 0, you have NO
life, none, not at all. BGA, or otherwise.

Sears-Conlin seems to have gone to quite some length to be
so flatly declared "wrong", without, at least, a couple of
dozen pages refuting them in a bit more scientific way.

You are wrong.
Many/most species of algae can store PO4 for up to 100 generations and
survive at far below limiting conditions for plants.

Again, you have any science to share? Look, Algae is a one
cell plant. It grows by fission and spore. How can a spore
possibly collect P from it's parents? Being one celled, and
without a nutrient transfer system, how does P magically
migrate to subsequent fission generations? The cell splits,
roughly 50% of the material is split between two new cells.
Both must now acquire materials to double their size. How
can the ultimate parent possibly, even remotely, "store"
enough PO4 for "100 generations"?

If you maintain 0 Phosphate - algae can't get any.
Oh yes they can.

Really, when is 0 not 0. BGA can fix Nitrogen, when NO3 is
0. But, P? Unless the BGA can crawl out of the tank and
acquire some dirt for themselves, 0 defines "can't get any".

Fish food, and plant leeching is plenty for algae.
They might slow down some, but they will still grow fine, BGA is no
exception.

Then were are not talking 0. You have inputs. If those
inputs are kept below total consumption demand, the inputs
are peaks and will return to zero.

During that non-0 time, algae, BGA and other, will surely
take advantage. So will the higher plants.

BGA has some effective doubling rate. If the P is available
for a short enough period of time, the BGA doesn't have much
time to double. Yes, it will expand, but 1 cell growing to
2, for adequately small random values of 1 and 2, does not
an outbreak make.

Meanwhile, in a P deprived tank, there is little leeching
from the higher plants. They are in acquisition and storage
mode, hungry. They are slower than BGA, to be sure, be
we're back to the small random values of BGA doubling in a
competitive environment, returning P to 0.

If the plant has what it needs to grow well, then it will do well and
the algae will not.

Algae is not a "plant"? Please share the biological
differences are you aware of between "plant" and "algae"
that would account for one "doing well", and the other not,
when adequately offering everything "plants" need?

Plants need far more nutrients relative to biomass than algae.

The point, exactly.


It's like having a mouse and an Elephant and feeding both the same
amount and then deciding to feed less. Which will starve?

Yes, exactly. If you have a mice and an elephant in a
sealed room (tank), and you throw 100 peanuts a day (P) into
the room... The clearly hungry elephant snorts once and the
mice get none. Maybe the elephant's clumsiness leaves the
mouse population 1, or 2, or 10 peanuts. Not enough for
mice to breed as rapidly, or support a large mice population.

Now, feed the room enough peanuts to meet everyone's demand.
They elephant is happy, and the mice breed. Many mice, so
many mice.

I had it(PO4) for decade, I loved it and so did my plants.

P has never done it for me, personally, in any form. Now,
my plants, I'm told, enjoy it immensely.

and good light. And, yea, use

Adding KNO3 regularly will generally cure BGA after you kill it off
first by doing a 3 day blackout, combined with 2 dosings after 50%
water changes right before and right after a blackout. Then regular
routine dosing of KNO3.

Why do you imagine KNO3 helps? KNO3 is 50-0-50 fertilizer.
May I call your attention to the complete lack of P.

Plants don't grow well when they don't have enough GH, CO2, NO3, PO4,
K+, and traces.

BGA fixes its own NO3, so there is no point in limiting
that. All you'll do is deprive your higher plants. Deprive
the higher plants of NO3, and you lower their competition
for P, and everything else.

So, what is PMDD? Well, a N-0-K fert with micro (Ca, Mg,
which is not just GH, btw, you can have high GH as all Mg or
Ca, and none of the other - and dead plants will ensue) and
the trace elements. All needed in proportion. Your routine
use of KN03 is incomplete - unless you are bringing in the
rest in with water changes. But, not everyone's input
waters are complete in this respect. Some use RO, some have
home softeners, some use strong micro-pore carbons to crack
chloramines (and lose metals in the process), some are just
lacking this, or that, in their tap.

Quick "corrections"...

1) I tried to keep Algae as plant, and BGA as "plant"
separate. They are different, BGA is a bacteria and not a
true plant. Unfortunately, in the mix-ed metaphor, where
you can treat BGA as if it were a plant, it isn't always
clear I was aware of the difference. I am. Thanks Sandy.

2) On the issue of "something runs out". Well, predation
and dis-infection would qualify as growth enabling defined
as a "lack" thereof. I'm sure BGA is happiest and most
prolific when any of its biologic predators, go lacking.
Biocidal chemicals, such as Chlorine, would also serve the
role of biologic predation.

2a) To the point of BGA, and "lacking" of a item enabling
growth... BGA is a bane to salt/reef tanks, too. There,
high-redox is associated with BGA limitation. Thus, in some
circles, a "lacking" of redox potential may be considered
enabling. Or, redox may just be an early symptom of the
onset of useful concentrations of some nutrient, perhaps DOC.

Even so, even on the reef side, severe limitation of P is
considered the definitive means of control for, um, cellular
plagues.

***************************************
Bill Kirkpatrick wrote:
wrote:

Eh? Life is a constructive process. It frankly doesn't care if, or
when, "something runs out" if it has no biological use for that
particular "something". Thus, BGA, or anything else, simply cannot grow
for LACK of a required component.

"Bill Kirkpatrick" wrote
You're preaching to the choir, perhaps reply to the post
that made the claim. Everyone ends up inoculated with BGA,
and BGA doesn't care about NO3 - it will fix it's own nitrogen.

There are a great many types of BGA. As I understand
it they do not all fix nitrogen. Do the types found in freshwater
aquaria fix their own nitrogen? If so what types are they?

Thanks

--
Graham Ramsay
Learn about the work of the JREF
www.randi.org

Bill Kirkpatrick wrote:
wrote:

Eh? Life is a constructive process. It frankly doesn't care if, or
when, "something runs out" if it has no biological use for that
particular "something". Thus, BGA, or anything else, simply cannot grow
for LACK of a required component.

I think that this is "lack" not in terms of BGA but in terms of
things (like higher plants) which compete with it for PO4 or
whatever. The analogy would be your room full of mice and
single elephant where there were 100 peanuts but only 1 cup
of water/day. In that context, the mice would eventually
outlast the elephant and establish a breeding colony due to
a "lack" of water. Yes?

You also state repeatedly that BGA fix their own nitrogen.
Is that true for all cyanobacteria? Just curious.

-coelacanth