I started playing around with my Fluval 404 in preparation for getting my
55G planted tank finally setup. I have a bunch of plumbing connected to it
(partly base tmax's design) and according to my calculations/tests I
have a flow rate of around 130gph (down from the 225gph with nothing
connected).

First I'm wondering if this is enough filtration. I'm planning on this
being a medium planted tank with a medium to heavy fish load. I know I can
just add a HOB filter and be safe, but I would prefer to stay away from HOBs
if possible.

Second, I'm wondering if I will have enough current in this tank. I know
it's hard to say without knowing exactly which fish I will have, but I'm
hoping to get a mix, some that like current, some that might not. So would
130gph provide enough current for your average planted community tank or
should I consider adding a power head, and if so, how strong?

Thanks,
Harry

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:32:18 -0400, "Harry Muscle"
wrote:

I started playing around with my Fluval 404 in preparation for getting my
55G planted tank finally setup. I have a bunch of plumbing connected to it
(partly base tmax's design) and according to my calculations/tests I
have a flow rate of around 130gph (down from the 225gph with nothing
connected).

First I'm wondering if this is enough filtration. I'm planning on this
being a medium planted tank with a medium to heavy fish load. I know I can
just add a HOB filter and be safe, but I would prefer to stay away from HOBs
if possible.

Second, I'm wondering if I will have enough current in this tank. I know
it's hard to say without knowing exactly which fish I will have, but I'm
hoping to get a mix, some that like current, some that might not. So would
130gph provide enough current for your average planted community tank or
should I consider adding a power head, and if so, how strong?

Thanks,
Harry


Hmmm... I found my 404 to be a little on the large side for a 55 gal.
As for water movement, I actually had to turn my down with the
adjustment lever to lower the output (also lowers input at same time).
This reduced the flow rate enough that my fish were not blowing around
the tank. I have my output roughly 2/3rds of the way down the back
side of the tank, spraying directly into that corner, using the corner
of the tank to turn the water and blow toward the front, then curve
around the farthest side back to the intake tube.

+-------------------------------------------------+
| in -out |
| | |
| V |
| -________________-_____+

hopefully that makes it through and is understandable.

I also have the gravel sloped from upper right hand corner (front) to
lower left hand corner (back) so that anything loose is naturally
blown down to the intake for the Fluval. This seems to work very
well, when I do water changes, there is little that needs cleaning in
the gravel bed (even though I do a thorough job every time anyway).

It does mean that I have to clean the input filters on the Fluval once
per month (just rinse clean) during one of my water changes.

Plants generally do NOT like high water volume movement. They don't
do well directly in front of the output of most filters. Since my
output is parallel with the back of the tank, this is not an issue.
The only section of my tank that does NOT have a high volume of
plants, is right around the intake tube. I leave that completely
clear. It also allows me to gage if plants are not doing well, since
everything tends to settle in that low section.
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will
proof-read each individual piece at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
I started playing around with my Fluval 404 in preparation for getting
my
55G planted tank finally setup. I have a bunch of plumbing connected
to it
(partly base tmax's design) and according to my
calculations/tests I
have a flow rate of around 130gph (down from the 225gph with nothing
connected).

First I'm wondering if this is enough filtration. I'm planning on this
being a medium planted tank with a medium to heavy fish load. I know I
can
just add a HOB filter and be safe, but I would prefer to stay away from
HOBs
if possible.

Second, I'm wondering if I will have enough current in this tank. I
know
it's hard to say without knowing exactly which fish I will have, but
I'm
hoping to get a mix, some that like current, some that might not. So
would
130gph provide enough current for your average planted community tank
or
should I consider adding a power head, and if so, how strong?

Thanks,
Harry

The 404 does 340 gph and is rated for 100g. Even with manufacturer's
optimistic ratings, and the restriction added by your plumbing, I think
the 404 will still be plenty on a 50g. At work, I have a well planted
135g running on a single 404. My fish load is about 150 small tetras &
rasboras (plants are a big part of my filtration). I also have a planted
55g (tall 4 foot tank) Angelfish-only tank running off a 304 or a 404 (I
swap parts so it might actually be a 304 base on a 404 motor or
vice-versa ;~). Fish-load varies from about 20 four inch Angels, to an
additional 50 two inch Angels (3 inch/per gallon). Tank gets lots of
regular maintenance, but I have no issues with re-oxygenation or ammonia.
This configuration is max'ed, and not suitable for a home tank, but it
might help with your perspective.

Whether it's enough turbulence is something you determine when the tank
is running with all your break-waters installed. The specs have you in
the right ball-park with power to spare, but the filter slows down as it
collects debris (and plants grow to block flow), so you want it to be a
bit over-powered initially. This fine-tuning is usually done by
orienting the return spigot.

Generally speaking, you don't need much turbulence in a well-planted tank
(imo). Just enough to provide a gentle flow around. In a 55g, this can
be achieved with 100gpH. Leave an open area for any fish who wants to
swim in the higher flow rates (riverine catfish, loaches etc), and
everyone else will be enjoying the tranquility )
--
www.NetMax.tk

Harry Muscle wrote in message ...
I started playing around with my Fluval 404 in preparation for getting my
55G planted tank finally setup. I have a bunch of plumbing connected to it
(partly base tmax's design) and according to my calculations/tests I
have a flow rate of around 130gph (down from the 225gph with nothing
connected).

First I'm wondering if this is enough filtration. I'm planning on this
being a medium planted tank with a medium to heavy fish load. I know I can
just add a HOB filter and be safe, but I would prefer to stay away from
HOBs
if possible.

Second, I'm wondering if I will have enough current in this tank. I know
it's hard to say without knowing exactly which fish I will have, but I'm
hoping to get a mix, some that like current, some that might not. So would
130gph provide enough current for your average planted community tank or
should I consider adding a power head, and if so, how strong?

Thanks,
Harry



if I could give you one word of advise: do a physical test with a measuring
container and a stop watch for your gph reading. it will be alot less than
the mathematical estimate. you should turn your tank over at least 3 times
an hour

"Paul" wrote in message
...

Harry Muscle wrote in message ...
I started playing around with my Fluval 404 in preparation for getting my
55G planted tank finally setup. I have a bunch of plumbing connected to
it
(partly base tmax's design) and according to my calculations/tests
I
have a flow rate of around 130gph (down from the 225gph with nothing
connected).

First I'm wondering if this is enough filtration. I'm planning on this
being a medium planted tank with a medium to heavy fish load. I know I
can
just add a HOB filter and be safe, but I would prefer to stay away from
HOBs
if possible.

Second, I'm wondering if I will have enough current in this tank. I know
it's hard to say without knowing exactly which fish I will have, but I'm
hoping to get a mix, some that like current, some that might not. So
would
130gph provide enough current for your average planted community tank or
should I consider adding a power head, and if so, how strong?

Thanks,
Harry



if I could give you one word of advise: do a physical test with a
measuring
container and a stop watch for your gph reading. it will be alot less than
the mathematical estimate. you should turn your tank over at least 3 times
an hour



I measured exactly how long it took for a bunch of bubbles to travel from
the filter to the outlet, I then did the math to figure out how much water
volume is in the pipes between the filter and the outlet and then converted
all of this to gph. I know that measuring the speed of bubbles isn't the
best way to figure out gph, since they don't always travel at the exact same
speed as the water around them, but it's a pretty close estimate. And since
my outlet is permanently plumbed into the tank with PVC pipes, it's way
easier to do this.

Harry

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
"Paul" wrote in message
...

Harry Muscle wrote in message ...
I started playing around with my Fluval 404 in preparation for
getting my
55G planted tank finally setup. I have a bunch of plumbing
connected to
it
(partly base tmax's design) and according to my
calculations/tests
I
have a flow rate of around 130gph (down from the 225gph with nothing
connected).

First I'm wondering if this is enough filtration. I'm planning on
this
being a medium planted tank with a medium to heavy fish load. I
know I
can
just add a HOB filter and be safe, but I would prefer to stay away
from
HOBs
if possible.

Second, I'm wondering if I will have enough current in this tank. I
know
it's hard to say without knowing exactly which fish I will have, but
I'm
hoping to get a mix, some that like current, some that might not.
So
would
130gph provide enough current for your average planted community
tank or
should I consider adding a power head, and if so, how strong?

Thanks,
Harry



if I could give you one word of advise: do a physical test with a
measuring
container and a stop watch for your gph reading. it will be alot less
than
the mathematical estimate. you should turn your tank over at least 3
times
an hour



I measured exactly how long it took for a bunch of bubbles to travel
from
the filter to the outlet, I then did the math to figure out how much
water
volume is in the pipes between the filter and the outlet and then
converted
all of this to gph. I know that measuring the speed of bubbles isn't
the
best way to figure out gph, since they don't always travel at the exact
same
speed as the water around them, but it's a pretty close estimate. And
since
my outlet is permanently plumbed into the tank with PVC pipes, it's way
easier to do this.

Harry


I'm not certain of the reliability or accuracy of your method. Can you
attach an extension hose to your filter output to feed a pail of water so
that you could then time the flow to get gph. Keep the end of the hose
at the same height as the level in your tank (replicate the head
pressure). Another method uses a large fish bag. With someone using a
stopwatch, slip a fishbag around the filter output (under water) and
partially fill the bag (do not overfill as you would introduce a
non-representative back-pressure). Stop the watch, remove the bag and
empty it into a container with graticules, and then do the math.

Doctrine has it that you need to do the tank volume so many times per
hour. Actually this is like the fish loading guidelines, more holes in
it than Swiss cheese ;~) For example, go to
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/fi...ers.shtml#spog and scroll
up a few inches to a flow comparison (using manufacturer's specs) on 66
to 75g tanks. Before any losses due to detritus accumulation, the specs
range from x1.5 tank volumes per hour (Eheim) to x4 (Filsar). Did you
know that the spec for ponds is x0.5 per hour. There are many variables
at work, different elements of filtration work better at different
speeds, filter media efficiency, work sharing (plants), tank depth (to
prevent stratification), amount of breakwaters (rockwork, driftwood) etc
etc. Don't get too hung up on the numbers. While x3 is a very good
design reference point for canisters, it doesn't mean it will not work at
x2 or even lower. (jmo)
--
www.NetMax.tk

"NetMax" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
"Paul" wrote in message
...

Harry Muscle wrote in message ...
I started playing around with my Fluval 404 in preparation for
getting my
55G planted tank finally setup. I have a bunch of plumbing
connected to
it
(partly base tmax's design) and according to my
calculations/tests
I
have a flow rate of around 130gph (down from the 225gph with nothing
connected).

First I'm wondering if this is enough filtration. I'm planning on
this
being a medium planted tank with a medium to heavy fish load. I
know I
can
just add a HOB filter and be safe, but I would prefer to stay away
from
HOBs
if possible.

Second, I'm wondering if I will have enough current in this tank. I
know
it's hard to say without knowing exactly which fish I will have, but
I'm
hoping to get a mix, some that like current, some that might not.
So
would
130gph provide enough current for your average planted community
tank or
should I consider adding a power head, and if so, how strong?

Thanks,
Harry



if I could give you one word of advise: do a physical test with a
measuring
container and a stop watch for your gph reading. it will be alot less
than
the mathematical estimate. you should turn your tank over at least 3
times
an hour



I measured exactly how long it took for a bunch of bubbles to travel
from
the filter to the outlet, I then did the math to figure out how much
water
volume is in the pipes between the filter and the outlet and then
converted
all of this to gph. I know that measuring the speed of bubbles isn't
the
best way to figure out gph, since they don't always travel at the exact
same
speed as the water around them, but it's a pretty close estimate. And
since
my outlet is permanently plumbed into the tank with PVC pipes, it's way
easier to do this.

Harry


I'm not certain of the reliability or accuracy of your method. Can you
attach an extension hose to your filter output to feed a pail of water so
that you could then time the flow to get gph. Keep the end of the hose
at the same height as the level in your tank (replicate the head
pressure). Another method uses a large fish bag. With someone using a
stopwatch, slip a fishbag around the filter output (under water) and
partially fill the bag (do not overfill as you would introduce a
non-representative back-pressure). Stop the watch, remove the bag and
empty it into a container with graticules, and then do the math.

Doctrine has it that you need to do the tank volume so many times per
hour. Actually this is like the fish loading guidelines, more holes in
it than Swiss cheese ;~) For example, go to
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/fi...ers.shtml#spog and scroll
up a few inches to a flow comparison (using manufacturer's specs) on 66
to 75g tanks. Before any losses due to detritus accumulation, the specs
range from x1.5 tank volumes per hour (Eheim) to x4 (Filsar). Did you
know that the spec for ponds is x0.5 per hour. There are many variables
at work, different elements of filtration work better at different
speeds, filter media efficiency, work sharing (plants), tank depth (to
prevent stratification), amount of breakwaters (rockwork, driftwood) etc
etc. Don't get too hung up on the numbers. While x3 is a very good
design reference point for canisters, it doesn't mean it will not work at
x2 or even lower. (jmo)
--
www.NetMax.tk



I'm gonna try the large fish bag idea. I'm curious to see how accurate or
inaccurate my bubble counting method is.

Thanks,
Harry

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
"NetMax" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
"Paul" wrote in message
...

Harry Muscle wrote in message
...
I started playing around with my Fluval 404 in preparation for
getting my
55G planted tank finally setup. I have a bunch of plumbing
connected to
it
(partly base tmax's design) and according to my
calculations/tests
I
have a flow rate of around 130gph (down from the 225gph with
nothing
connected).

First I'm wondering if this is enough filtration. I'm planning on
this
being a medium planted tank with a medium to heavy fish load. I
know I
can
just add a HOB filter and be safe, but I would prefer to stay away
from
HOBs
if possible.

Second, I'm wondering if I will have enough current in this tank.
I
know
it's hard to say without knowing exactly which fish I will have,
but
I'm
hoping to get a mix, some that like current, some that might not.
So
would
130gph provide enough current for your average planted community
tank or
should I consider adding a power head, and if so, how strong?

Thanks,
Harry



if I could give you one word of advise: do a physical test with a
measuring
container and a stop watch for your gph reading. it will be alot
less
than
the mathematical estimate. you should turn your tank over at least 3
times
an hour



I measured exactly how long it took for a bunch of bubbles to travel
from
the filter to the outlet, I then did the math to figure out how much
water
volume is in the pipes between the filter and the outlet and then
converted
all of this to gph. I know that measuring the speed of bubbles isn't
the
best way to figure out gph, since they don't always travel at the
exact
same
speed as the water around them, but it's a pretty close estimate. And
since
my outlet is permanently plumbed into the tank with PVC pipes, it's
way
easier to do this.

Harry


I'm not certain of the reliability or accuracy of your method. Can you
attach an extension hose to your filter output to feed a pail of water
so
that you could then time the flow to get gph. Keep the end of the hose
at the same height as the level in your tank (replicate the head
pressure). Another method uses a large fish bag. With someone using a
stopwatch, slip a fishbag around the filter output (under water) and
partially fill the bag (do not overfill as you would introduce a
non-representative back-pressure). Stop the watch, remove the bag and
empty it into a container with graticules, and then do the math.

Doctrine has it that you need to do the tank volume so many times per
hour. Actually this is like the fish loading guidelines, more holes in
it than Swiss cheese ;~) For example, go to
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/fi...ers.shtml#spog and scroll
up a few in o a flow comparison (using manufacturer's specs) on 66
to 75g tanks. Before any losses due to detritus accumulation, the specs
range from x1.5 tank volumes per hour (Eheim) to x4 (Filsar). Did you
know that the spec for ponds is x0.5 per hour. There are many variables
at work, different elements of filtration work better at different
speeds, filter media efficiency, work sharing (plants), tank depth (to
prevent stratification), amount of breakwaters (rockwork, driftwood) etc
etc. Don't get too hung up on the numbers. While x3 is a very good
design reference point for canisters, it doesn't mean it will not work
at
x2 or even lower. (jmo)
--
www.NetMax.tk



I'm gonna try the large fish bag idea. I'm curious to see how accurate or
inaccurate my bubble counting method is.

Thanks,
Harry



I did the fish bag method of testing my gph, and it turns out it's even
better than what my bubble counting method told me (I'm guessing I didn't do
a good enough job of estimating how much water volume is in the piping).

I did two bag tests just to be certain and both came in within a few gph of
160gph. Given the fact that 130gph was going to be ok, I'm pretty sure I
won't have any issues with 160gph even once the filter starts to clog a
little.

Thanks for everyone's input,
Harry