I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was
mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've
been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found
seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of
you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?

My online research suggests that these products are suitable for
enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:

Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS)
Chaser (surfactant + 28% N)
Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N)
Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)

Any experience with them on English ivy?

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

Not an answer to your question, but I've been using Brush-B-Gon instead
of Roundup.

John,

I thought that Roundup already had a surfactant included, but then I'm
no expert (as my wife & in-laws frequently remind me). I spoke with
a very knowledgeable Scotts/Ortho employee in Marysville, Ohio early
this summer and after the conversation I felt that adding a surfactant
really wasn't necessary.

From our experiences using Roundup on various types of ivy, the big issue
is how long the Roundup gets to stay on the foliage before any watering or
rain occurs. The package states that the product will kill after just 1 hour
of contact, but I'm certain that maximum efficacy is attain after several days
without rain. It is extremely important to get the maximum amount of the
product down into the root zone.

Personally, I prefer to spend my money on higher concentrations of Roundup
or on additional applications.

My son has killed ivy for 3 customers in the past 2 weeks. Typical Ortho
recommendations for Roundup concentrations vary from 0.5% to 2%. We
use 4% and we reapply 3 days later for English ivy, poison ivy and other
woody plants. The lower concentrations and single applications work
great for grasses and such, but the woody plants need the extra dosage
in my opinion.

Good luck,
Gideon

=========

John McGaw wrote in message ...
I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was
mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've
been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found
seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of
you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?

My online research suggests that these products are suitable for
enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:

Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS)
Chaser (surfactant + 28% N)
Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N)
Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)

Any experience with them on English ivy?

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

John McGaw wrote:

I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was
mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've
been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found
seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of
you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?

My online research suggests that these products are suitable for
enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:

Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS)
Chaser (surfactant + 28% N)
Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N)
Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)

Any experience with them on English ivy?

I use the same kind of liquid soap that my wife uses to wash
dishes. I add a large squirt to each mix of spray.

Note that, if you do this with Roundup, you must give the sprayer
at least one extra rinse with plain water before putting it away or
using it with any other spray.

--

David E. Ross
URL:http://www.rossde.com/

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See URL:http://www.mozilla.org/.

My husband uses some diesel fuel in his round up when he has particularly
nasty things to kill.
Like poison ivy,blackberry bushes and brambles
If you aren't afraid to try it, le me know, I'll find out how much.
It's not allot but it WORKS.

Kate

"John McGaw" wrote in message
...
:I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was
: mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've
: been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found
: seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of
: you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?
:
: My online research suggests that these products are suitable for
: enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:
:
: Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS)
: Chaser (surfactant + 28% N)
: Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N)
: Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)
:
: Any experience with them on English ivy?
:
: --
: John McGaw
: [Knoxville, TN, USA]
: http://johnmcgaw.com

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:00:56 GMT, "SVTKate"
wrote:

My husband uses some diesel fuel in his round up when he has particularly
nasty things to kill.


What an idiot! No point in round up....sheesh. What's your address so
I can call your local EPA!


Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel.
-- Aldo Leopold

David Ross wrote:
John McGaw wrote:

I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was
mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've
been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found
seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of
you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?

My online research suggests that these products are suitable for
enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:

Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS)
Chaser (surfactant + 28% N)
Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N)
Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)

Any experience with them on English ivy?


I use the same kind of liquid soap that my wife uses to wash
dishes. I add a large squirt to each mix of spray.

Note that, if you do this with Roundup, you must give the sprayer
at least one extra rinse with plain water before putting it away or
using it with any other spray.

I had thought of that myself and tried it weekend before last. I added a
couple of healthy squirts of dish liquid to an extra-concentrated
mixture of Roundup and sprayed a patch of ivy around and up some trees.
After a week the result was nil so far as I can tell (unless the leaves
are a bit cleaner now). I really hate to think about having to grub all
of the ivy out by hand since it covers ~1/4 acre.
--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

do not add any chemicals to compounds please. Glyphosate already has
a surfactant in it. Geesh.

John McGaw wrote:

David Ross wrote:
John McGaw wrote:

I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was
mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've
been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found
seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of
you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?

My online research suggests that these products are suitable for
enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:

Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS)
Chaser (surfactant + 28% N)
Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N)
Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)

Any experience with them on English ivy?


I use the same kind of liquid soap that my wife uses to wash
dishes. I add a large squirt to each mix of spray.

Note that, if you do this with Roundup, you must give the sprayer
at least one extra rinse with plain water before putting it away or
using it with any other spray.

I had thought of that myself and tried it weekend before last. I added a
couple of healthy squirts of dish liquid to an extra-concentrated
mixture of Roundup and sprayed a patch of ivy around and up some trees.
After a week the result was nil so far as I can tell (unless the leaves
are a bit cleaner now). I really hate to think about having to grub all
of the ivy out by hand since it covers ~1/4 acre.

With young annual weeds, the effects of Roundup should be visible
in less than a week. But with established perennials (e.g., ivy),
the result might not be visible for 2-4 weeks. Roundup works by
translocating from the foliage to the roots and then killing the
roots. With a larger root system, the established pernennials just
take longer.

--

David E. Ross
URL:http://www.rossde.com/

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See URL:http://www.mozilla.org/.

SVTKate wrote:

My husband uses some diesel fuel in his round up when he has particularly
nasty things to kill.
Like poison ivy,blackberry bushes and brambles
If you aren't afraid to try it, le me know, I'll find out how much.
It's not allot but it WORKS.

The diesel will kill the foliage almost immediately. This prevents
the Roundup from moving through the plant (in the sap) to the
roots. Since Roundup works by killing the roots, you are wasting
it.

--

David E. Ross
URL:http://www.rossde.com/

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See URL:http://www.mozilla.org/.

The systemic herbicide triclopyr (e.g., Garlon) is absorbed into plant
tissues and carried to the roots, effectively killing the entire plant
in place.
Foliar applications: From summer to fall, apply a 2.5% mixture of
triclopyr amine (Garlon 3A) in water to the leaves or cut first, allow
to regrow, and apply the same mix to new foliage. Herbicide will also
be absorbed through the stem bark for additional effect.
Basal bark applications: A higher rate (15-30%) of triclopyr ester
(Garlon 4) may also be applied to stems of vines growing up trees but
there is a possibility that the herbicide will be absorbed into the
host tree, depending on the thickness of the host tree's bark and the
penetration of English ivy rootlets.
Because English ivy is an evergreen vine, and remains active during
the winter, herbicide applications can be made to it any time of year
as long as temperatures are above 55 or 60 degrees Fahrenheit for a
few days. Fall and winter applications will avoid or minimize impacts
to many native plant species. Repeat herbicidal treatments are likely
to be needed and followup monitoring should be conducted to evaluate
the success of treatments. Herbicidal contact with desirable plants
should always be avoided. In areas where spring wildflowers or other
native plants are interspersed, application of herbicides should be
conducted prior to their emergence, or delayed until they have died
back

Herbicide application
The waxy cuticle of H. helix allows the plant to have a high
resistance to herbicide uptake, thereby, creating great complication
during attempts to treat the plant (Morisawa, 1999; Derr, 1993).
Studies prove that H. helix is tolerant of preemergence herbicides
(Derr, 1993). Multiple applications of postemergence herbicides have
proven to be more effective though success varies according to the age
or maturity level of the plant (Derr, 1993). Herbicides absorption is
greater in newer shoots compared to older, more mature leaves (Derr,
1993). Round-up (glyphosate) applications of 3.0 kg/ha (2.7lb/Acre)
on younger plants proved most effective when applied during spring
months (Derr, 1993; Reichard, 2000). Application of Round-up
(glyphosate) on mature plants retarded growth up to 60% though proved
ineffective to completely destroy H. helix even with a higher
concentration, a second application, or use of a non-ionic surfactant
(Reichard, 2000; Derr, 1993)). Weedar 64 (2,4-d) applied at a rate of
1.1kg/ha (1lb/A) did control H. helix when applied twice (Derr, 1993).
In some of the treatment plots, however, ivy was reestablished after
two years from advances of adjacent populations that were untreated
(Reichard, 2000).



George Krall of the Bureau of Environmental Services in Portland,
Oregon (2000) also mentioned the combination technique of using Scythe
(pelargonic acid) with Round-up (glyphosate). Scythe is a
non-selective herbicide that effectively burns through the leaf
cuticle, killing active leaf tissue; it is appropriately named after
the Grim Reaper’s tool (Thomson, 1997; Gilman, 2000). It is assumed
that once the pelargonic acid has been applied, Round-up (glyphosate)
will be able to penetrate through the leaf cuticle more successfully
and then be absorbed by the plant through transpiration (Krall, 2000).
This method is being used in riparian zones, wetlands, and upland
forests throughout Portland.



There is speculation that the method of combining pelargonic acid and
glyphosate may not be very effective. Round-up (glyphosate), a
systemic herbicide, needs active tissues to enable transportation to
the roots of a plant for it to be effective (Gilman, 2000). Applying
Scythe (pelargonic acid) will destroy leaf tissue resulting in a
“reduced effect” of the Round-up (glyphosate). Gilman (2000)
suggested researching an alternative method of using Round-up
(glyphosate) with a controlled droplet application or electrostatic
sprayer. This treatment system would charge the ions of Round-up
(glyphosate) so that herbicides will more successfully adhere to
stomates on the underside of the plant, avoiding its waxy cuticle and
resulting in increased uptake (Gilman,2000). Studies have examined
this method and determined that it allows for a more accurate
application of herbicides and increased effectiveness (Gebhardt,
1984).




Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel.
-- Aldo Leopold

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:49:46 -0400, John McGaw
wrote:

I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was
mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've
been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found
seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of
you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?

My online research suggests that these products are suitable for
enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:

Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS)
Chaser (surfactant + 28% N)
Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N)
Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)

Any experience with them on English ivy?

Try using liquid dish soap, about 1 oz per gallon. Should work plenty
good.

Thunder

Bourne Identity wrote:
do not add any chemicals to compounds please. Glyphosate already has
a surfactant in it. Geesh.

Funny you should say that. Wonder why so many state-ag-type
organizations specifically say that to kill some tough plants one really
must add a "non-ionic surfactant" to Roundup? I don't doubt that Roundup
has _some_ surfactant in it but I know that spraying it on English ivy
is pretty much a losing proposition because the waxy cuticle on the
leaves causes the majority of the spray to bead up and roll off before
it can do any good. My only problem, and the origin of the post, was
trying to identify an appropriate surfactant that can be purchased in
home rather than farm-sized containers.
--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

I had/have the same problem with English Ivy, Creeping Euonymus along with
some poison ivy. I called the people at Round up because my first of
several applications did nothing. They had me combine Brush be gone, Round
up (the really concentrated stuff) and some dish soap. Took a while and a
couple of extra spot treatments but it worked.

Marc

"Rolling Thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:49:46 -0400, John McGaw
wrote:

I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was
mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've
been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found
seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of
you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?

My online research suggests that these products are suitable for
enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:

Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS)
Chaser (surfactant + 28% N)
Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N)
Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)

Any experience with them on English ivy?

Try using liquid dish soap, about 1 oz per gallon. Should work plenty
good.

Thunder

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:30:04 -0400, John McGaw
wrote:

My only problem, and the origin of the post, was
trying to identify an appropriate surfactant that can be purchased in
home rather than farm-sized containers.

Your only problem, like the original poster is that you didn't read
the label. If you had you'd learn Roundup is NOT labeled for Hedera
sp.



Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel.
-- Aldo Leopold