Major climate change has been a fact of life since the beginning of time on
earth. The difference now is the rate of change. No fossil record or core
sample we have ever found shows such a rapid change in temperatures over one
century as we have just experienced or such a huge measurable increase in
atmospheric carbon dioxide. During every major climate change, there were
major die offs of species - and many of those species had several thousand
years to adapt. It takes no special scientific ability to predict that with
more rapid climate change those die-offs will happen much faster and will
affect many more species. Can an earth which might lose 1/4th of all its
species support 6 or 7 billion humans? Not likely............In fact, it's
quite possible that we might join the ranks of the species who die-off, or
die back to small numbers. Just imagine if global warming were to assist the
spread of some sort of incurable plant disease to the grain family
(graminaceae) - how long could the human race survive in numbers without
wheat, rice, corn, oats, barley, rye, millet, or any other grain to provide
storable calories? Unfortunately, the climate change which fossil fuel
burning initiated might now be irreversible. In other words, even if we
stopped burning oil and coal tomorrow, the climate would probably continue
to warm for several centuries according to some models. I hope those models
are incorrect. Unwittingly at first, and now, with more knowledge available
to us but not acted upon, stupidly we have fouled our own nest.......
"djay" wrote in message
news:VtXDf.13690$oo1.12517@trnddc02...

"Thornhill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Persephone wrote:
...or *something*!

Global warming will actually make winters colder. Rising temperatures
will melt the ice caps, releasing fresh water into the ocean. This will
decrease the strength of the gulf stream, which is what brings warm air
from the equator up to the northern hemisphere during the winter. New
England and Europe are going to be hardest hit. In general, global
warming makes everything more extreme.

Here in Philadelphia, December was fairly cold, but this January,
temperatures have often been in the 50s, and it seems to make it to 60
once a week. My tulips and daffodils have already started coming up.


I love gardening too and have to laugh sometimes at the unscientific posts
that occur here at times. Some type of "global warming" caused the last
great ice age to recede too. How the heck did that happen? AND was it a
bad thing?

The message
from golddog contains these words:


To set the record straight, Saddam was not responsible for 9/11.

Ohmigard, are you SURE? Has anyone told the President?

Janet.

"mleblanca" wrote in message
ups.com...

Doug Kanter wrote:

Janet wrote.

That's the US-govt fake excuse designed to justify their ostrich
stance to Americans. Taken from from the same
dusty-irrational-make-believe-justification shelf as " Saddam Hussein
had it coming because he was responsible for 9/11."

Janet.

Saddam *was* responsible for 9/11. A squirrel told me about it.

Ha I heard about it from a monkey..........


Was it a nookular monkey?

It wouldn't be such a concern if the 'warming' (melting) isn't taking place in the short time frame. Actually the Industrial Revolution's emergence and the large melting coincide. Ask the two right wing Senators from Alaska what they think of global warming. They have a front row seat. To ask for more proof is not fair, as virtually all scientists agree on this one. Plus Google will turn up vast amounts of data to confirm.

djay wrote:
"Thornhill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Persephone wrote:
...or *something*!

Global warming will actually make winters colder. Rising temperatures
will melt the ice caps, releasing fresh water into the ocean. This will
decrease the strength of the gulf stream, which is what brings warm air
from the equator up to the northern hemisphere during the winter. New
England and Europe are going to be hardest hit. In general, global
warming makes everything more extreme.

Here in Philadelphia, December was fairly cold, but this January,
temperatures have often been in the 50s, and it seems to make it to 60
once a week. My tulips and daffodils have already started coming up.


I love gardening too and have to laugh sometimes at the unscientific posts
that occur here at times. Some type of "global warming" caused the last
great ice age to recede too. How the heck did that happen? AND was it a
bad thing?

There's nothing unscientific about this. Lots of studies have been
done.

I'm not talking about another ice age, just weather patterns in the
northern hemisphere. The summers, like the rest of the world, will be
incredibly hot, but a weakened Gulf Stream will result in colder
winters.

"golddog" wrote in message
...

djay Wrote:
"Thornhill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Persephone wrote:
...or *something*!

Global warming will actually make winters colder. Rising temperatures
will melt the ice caps, releasing fresh water into the ocean. This
will
decrease the strength of the gulf stream, which is what brings warm
air
from the equator up to the northern hemisphere during the winter. New
England and Europe are going to be hardest hit. In general, global
warming makes everything more extreme.

Here in Philadelphia, December was fairly cold, but this January,
temperatures have often been in the 50s, and it seems to make it to
60
once a week. My tulips and daffodils have already started coming up.


I love gardening too and have to laugh sometimes at the unscientific
posts
that occur here at times. Some type of "global warming" caused the
last
great ice age to recede too. How the heck did that happen? AND was it
a
bad thing?

It wouldn't be such a concern if the 'warming' (melting) isn't taking
place in the short time frame. Actually the Industrial Revolution's
emergence and the large melting coincide. Ask the two right wing
Senators from Alaska what they think of global warming. They have a
front row seat. To ask for more proof is not fair, as virtually all
scientists agree on this one. Plus Google will turn up vast amounts of
data to confirm.

Certain individuals believe (consciously or not) that to acknowledge global
warming is equivalent to offending two institutions which they revere more
than Catholics revere the pope: The oil and automobile industries. And,
let's not forget that they'd also have to kick the jambs out from under our
entire belief system, which says we have a god-given right to own any car we
like, no matter how stupid it might be, and to hell with the consequences.

Persephone wrote in message ...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since they talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that because of no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be the answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not reduced any of
their emissions but they still blame the U.S. for it's failure even though
everybody acjknowedges it wouldn't cure anything. The whole movement is seen
by many to be a continuous money supply in order to keep all those "experts"
from having to drive cabs for a living.

The warming may be somewhat real to some degree but it has been explained by
many knowledgeable people as climate cycles (and there are many of them) and
cycles within cycles. Sun output, orbital variations and other known factors
have been cited but no one really knows how and why climate has changed
natuarally over the eons. Climate change is always happening.


"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed --and
hence clamorous to be led to safety--by menacing it with an endless series
of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken

"James" wrote in message
...

Persephone wrote in message ...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since they
talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that because of
no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be the
answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not reduced any
of
their emissions but they still blame the U.S. for it's failure even though
everybody acjknowedges it wouldn't cure anything. The whole movement is
seen
by many to be a continuous money supply in order to keep all those
"experts"
from having to drive cabs for a living.

The warming may be somewhat real to some degree but it has been explained
by
many knowledgeable people as climate cycles (and there are many of them)
and
cycles within cycles. Sun output, orbital variations and other known
factors
have been cited but no one really knows how and why climate has changed
natuarally over the eons. Climate change is always happening.

OK, but at the other extreme, discounting it completely is the mantra of
idiots who want to drive an Escalade or a Hummer, and pretend they don't
belch more fumes than more sensible vehicles.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"James" wrote in message
...

Persephone wrote in message
...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since they
talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that because of
no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be the
answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not reduced
any
of
their emissions but they still blame the U.S. for it's failure even
though
everybody acjknowedges it wouldn't cure anything. The whole movement is
seen
by many to be a continuous money supply in order to keep all those
"experts"
from having to drive cabs for a living.

The warming may be somewhat real to some degree but it has been
explained
by
many knowledgeable people as climate cycles (and there are many of them)
and
cycles within cycles. Sun output, orbital variations and other known
factors
have been cited but no one really knows how and why climate has changed
natuarally over the eons. Climate change is always happening.

OK, but at the other extreme, discounting it completely is the mantra of
idiots who want to drive an Escalade or a Hummer, and pretend they don't
belch more fumes than more sensible vehicles.


That seems to be a point that a lot of people make for some reason but I
doubt anyone driving an SUV pretends anything. I believe they just want to
be in on the SUV fad while it lasts.

The message
from "James" contains these words:


Persephone wrote in message ...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since they talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that because of no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be the answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not reduced any of
their emissions

You're mistaken. KYOTO is only the tip of the iceberg; it's
acknowledged here as too little too late. FYI, the whole of Europe is
committed to much tighter emission reductions than KYOTO. In Britain,
we're working on three different reduction commitments ,international
(Kyoto), European and UK, at every level of the community (from
business to individual households). CO2 reduction , and moving to
renewable , sustainable, non-polluting energy sources are already huge
business here, and America risks being left very far behind.

Janet.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "James" contains these words:


Persephone wrote in message ...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since they
talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that because of
no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be the
answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not reduced any
of
their emissions

You're mistaken. KYOTO is only the tip of the iceberg; it's
acknowledged here as too little too late. FYI, the whole of Europe is
committed to much tighter emission reductions than KYOTO. In Britain,
we're working on three different reduction commitments ,international
(Kyoto), European and UK, at every level of the community (from
business to individual households). CO2 reduction , and moving to
renewable , sustainable, non-polluting energy sources are already huge
business here, and America risks being left very far behind.

Janet.

Fumes are manly. Fixing the problem is wimpy. This is the attitude of the
administration, and quite a few members of a generation that needs to die of
old age as soon as possible.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "James" contains these words:


Persephone wrote in message
...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since they
talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that because of
no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be the
answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not reduced
any of
their emissions

You're mistaken. KYOTO is only the tip of the iceberg; it's
acknowledged here as too little too late. FYI, the whole of Europe is
committed to much tighter emission reductions than KYOTO. In Britain,
we're working on three different reduction commitments ,international
(Kyoto), European and UK, at every level of the community (from
business to individual households). CO2 reduction , and moving to
renewable , sustainable, non-polluting energy sources are already huge
business here, and America risks being left very far behind.

Janet.

Yes. I know Europe is much more rabid about it than we are. But from what
I've read, no one has yet met their Kyoto targets. Though Kyoto has only
been in actual effect for a year, it has been committed to for some time
now. I would have thought they would be further along. It will be
interesting to see how well they perform in coming years. I misspoke saying
they haven't reduced emissions. They just haven't met their goal according
to the timetable.

"James" wrote in message
...

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "James" contains these words:


Persephone wrote in message
...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since they
talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that because
of
no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be the
answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not reduced
any of
their emissions

You're mistaken. KYOTO is only the tip of the iceberg; it's
acknowledged here as too little too late. FYI, the whole of Europe is
committed to much tighter emission reductions than KYOTO. In Britain,
we're working on three different reduction commitments ,international
(Kyoto), European and UK, at every level of the community (from
business to individual households). CO2 reduction , and moving to
renewable , sustainable, non-polluting energy sources are already huge
business here, and America risks being left very far behind.

Janet.

Yes. I know Europe is much more rabid about it than we are. But from what
I've read, no one has yet met their Kyoto targets. Though Kyoto has only
been in actual effect for a year, it has been committed to for some time
now. I would have thought they would be further along. It will be
interesting to see how well they perform in coming years. I misspoke
saying
they haven't reduced emissions. They just haven't met their goal according
to the timetable.



Don't hold your breath waiting for perfection. Some of the provisions
require improvements to coal-burning facilities, and it's so much easier and
cheaper to simply purchase the public officials who can make the enforcement
go away. That's what's happening here.

The message
from "James" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "James" contains these words:


Persephone wrote in message
...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since they
talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that because of
no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be the
answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not reduced
any of
their emissions

You're mistaken. KYOTO is only the tip of the iceberg; it's
acknowledged here as too little too late. FYI, the whole of Europe is
committed to much tighter emission reductions than KYOTO. In Britain,
we're working on three different reduction commitments ,international
(Kyoto), European and UK, at every level of the community (from
business to individual households). CO2 reduction , and moving to
renewable , sustainable, non-polluting energy sources are already huge
business here, and America risks being left very far behind.

Janet.

Yes. I know Europe is much more rabid about it than we are. But from what
I've read, no one has yet met their Kyoto targets.

That's unsurprising since the target date is still 4 years away.
Latest assessments are that Britain and Sweden are on target to meet
their Kyoto commitment by 2010 with Austria a close third.

Janet

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "James" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "James" contains these words:


Persephone wrote in message
...
...or *something*!


Global warming is a political issue. It's been around ever since
they
talked
about a new ice age coming back in the 70s. They changed that
because of
no
interest and global warming replaced it. Kyoto was supposed to be
the
answer
and now it's all but dead. The signees of the treaty have not
reduced
any of
their emissions

You're mistaken. KYOTO is only the tip of the iceberg; it's
acknowledged here as too little too late. FYI, the whole of Europe is
committed to much tighter emission reductions than KYOTO. In Britain,
we're working on three different reduction commitments ,international
(Kyoto), European and UK, at every level of the community (from
business to individual households). CO2 reduction , and moving to
renewable , sustainable, non-polluting energy sources are already huge
business here, and America risks being left very far behind.

Janet.

Yes. I know Europe is much more rabid about it than we are. But from
what
I've read, no one has yet met their Kyoto targets.

That's unsurprising since the target date is still 4 years away.
Latest assessments are that Britain and Sweden are on target to meet
their Kyoto commitment by 2010 with Austria a close third.

Janet

As I understand it, there are target dates year by year and none have been
met. Britain started out pretty well when they converted to natural gas but
failed to meet their target. The ultimate outcome is in doubt. Ditto for
Germany as the old belching plants were converted to more efficient methods.