When you live in a quarter million dollar house, property values matter. The
homes in my development range 200 to 400 thousand dollars. That's a lot of
money for a Texas sub-division. It matters to me, so I manage to not have
Tarzan vines and a big huge mess out front. That back is another story. It's a
prairie garden, full of weeds and rangy materials.

I do live and let live, but I do it by taking part in the solution, not causing
the problem. I'm not saying you aren't correct about rules and more rules, just
that when I bought this house I signed a deed restriction to which I must
comply. I can be sued in civil court if I don't. I KNEW that coming in. We
don't have a homeowners association in here. We are respectful to one another
as something decent people do.


On Fri, 04 Apr 2003 23:58:47 GMT, wrote:

the key is any development with any rules cause if they dont have them now, they will
have em in the future when the control freaks get their nose outta joint. the rules
you start with are not the rules you end up with. oddly enough, I now live in the
city jowl to jowl and there seems to be less rules than in the burbs. people here
are more interested in living and let living than "property values". Ingrid

animaux wrote:
Yeah, but she did move into a HOA development, which can and does enforce the
deed restrictions. She signed this when she bought the house. Nobody tells me
what to plant or not, but out of respect of neighbors who have their tidy boring
front yards, I somehow manage to comply. You should know that my compliance IS
my defiance.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

When you live in a quarter million dollar house, property values matter. The
homes in my development range 200 to 400 thousand dollars.

Later you say you live an let live. This is a sticky subject and the spectrum
of opinion is reflected in the comments on the original article. In NYS a man
in Buffalo carried his convictions through around ten years in the courts. He
sold the house to move on one day but he he did not remove his natural
landscape. His was an innocent begining which went atomic with hardheads on
all sides intending to win. (Witness US international situation).

The way you keep your gardens (more likely a yard here) is a subject of
extraordinary comment and sometimes intervention by your neighbor. Nowhere
else on the planet would a homeowner use the time and budget of a court to
challenge weeds. My family own a building in a neighboring city which is
regularly cited by a code violation office for vegetation reaching three feet
or more. The tenant does not do the agreed hacking off, family are not
informed and a huge operation goes into action for want of a knock on the door.


Travel some out of the US and see how much the need to intervene in your
neighbors life is not respected and that would extend to yards/gardens.The
organized living communities should be suspect for what they are. A relative
visiting my sister in Florida parked a rented motorhome in her driveway.
Unfortunately he stayed over the five day alloted period of time and got her a
visit to a local court. In time the infirm and the elderly pass through periods
when garden care is not possible. In more time the ways of the inform and the
elderly take away the problem. Why add to it with such rancor.

There are few here that would not agree that the issue is a minor one except to
the individual who lives next to the untidy garden. Is it not strange then
that the very groups who dislike the untidy gardens also legislate against the
fence that would be the solution in the rest of the world? The fences in my
sister's area are prescribed as to actual being, size, material used, etc.

I live adjoining Mother's Nature's messy acres and in my case it would be
called a green area, a nature preserve or a woodland. Leaves blow in, the
occasional branch falls over and weed seeds enter freely. It is not a managed
fiefdom but you get the idea, if one likes management, one chooses management.
If the occasional soul who's brain hatches an idea wanders in, try a knock on
the door, open the ears,and try to end the American way of lving life by the
$$$$ instead of civility.

We have in this land of celebrated freedom a nasy core of intolerance for the
minority who do not toe the line.

Mike

I keep hearing this again and again, but frankly I dont see the supporting evidence
that property values slide if somebody got plants out front rather than grass.

Real estate agents say the 3 most important items are location, location, location.

I think the whole "property values degraded by x,y,z" is a myth promulgated by
control freaks. the fact is having an asshole crazy neighbor is more likely the
reason for people to dump their house and take a loss to move, which is not something
one would know as they look over the house and give a bid. In fact, the main reason
people sell their house is their job has moved, divorce, want smaller or larger house
or they died. And anybody thinks buying a great big new house is a great investment
better think again. It is a great investment for the developer, but I classify great
big expensive new homes along with great big expensive new SUVs and high flying Enron
stock. When the oil hits the fan none of em are going to hold their value. Good ol'
conservative Milwaukee must be leading the nation .. the great big new homes out in
the burbs are standing empty, a drag on the market and people are moving back into
town where there is a building boom going on. Ingrid


When you live in a quarter million dollar house, property values matter. The
homes in my development range 200 to 400 thousand dollars.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote:
I keep hearing this again and again, but frankly I dont see the
supporting evidence
that property values slide if somebody got plants out front rather
than grass.

In the last year, three houses along my way out to the main road went up
for sale. They all used to have just grass and some small shrubs. The
mailbox was the most outstanding part of their landscaping.

As soon as they went on the market, they were out there planting all
kinds of color spots, and replacing some of the shaggier shrubs with
perennials.

Along the same vein, I'm not sure I would have been excited enough about
putting in an offer on my house if it wasn't for the landscaping,
including what's in the front.

Occasionally I'll take a side trip off the beaten path to look at the
interesting landscaping in the front yards. Of course this is a waste of
time in the newer subdivisions, but any of the areas around here that
were built before 1980 have lots of interesting front yard landscaping.
And yes, wildflowers are not uncommon.

But this is the Portland, OR metro area, where landscaping is darn near
a competitive sport. Slowly, but surely, the newer subdivisions get more
and more interesting landscaping in the front yard.

Now if you go further into the city, especially in the neighborhoods
with small lots, you'll even find vegetable gardens in the front yard.
Some of the newer in-fill developments are being designed with front
porches, and areas intended for personalized gardening in an attempt to
bring more life to the street, and foster a community atmosphere.

Around here, property values would probably go down if the front yard
gardens went away.

You can only out-do your neighbor's Christmas lights for one month a
year. You can out-do your neighbor's landscaping all year if you plan it
right.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.

yes, it definitely gives people something to look at while walking with or w/o their
dog. lots of people stop by my front garden in spring when the big show is on. I
know I walk over to look at my main competition on the next block. She been at it
longer and our elderly neighbor told me her daddy was head gardener for Schlitz
Brewery, who had some of the nicest gardens. Seems lots of people on the block got
some of the extra plants he was allowed to take home from work. actually I get
tickled walking down thru the alleys and looking at what people are doing in their
back yards too. My gardening has started a trend on the block. some of the people
who were here and especially some of the newer people are planting out front.
Milwaukee is known for being "lawn proud", so it does buck the usual trend. I have
almost no lawn left out front .. only the tree lawn is really left.
I love sitting out on our front porch and seeing the life on our block. I get really
warm fuzzies on warm Saturdays when several neighbors are out working in their
gardens, the hum of electric mowers, edgers, etc. going, hammering as people are
fixing stuff on their houses, roofing, like that. there is such a sense of
community. Ingrid

"Warren" wrote:
Now if you go further into the city, especially in the neighborhoods
with small lots, you'll even find vegetable gardens in the front yard.
Some of the newer in-fill developments are being designed with front
porches, and areas intended for personalized gardening in an attempt to
bring more life to the street, and foster a community atmosphere.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

animaux wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003 01:11:02 GMT, C. Hurst wrote:

The ultimate in biological terrorism...a ticked -off neighbor with a
sack of dandelion seeds


Carla (...who thinks that everyone should be able to experience the
golden splendor of dandelions...)


To which that attacked neighbor will apply herbicides and the beat goes on.

Killing their lawn, while you keep sneaking up on the upwind side with
more seedheads.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:23:46 GMT, wrote:

I keep hearing this again and again, but frankly I dont see the supporting evidence
that property values slide if somebody got plants out front rather than grass.

I never said that. Each week I remove more and more turf and put in plants.
Most are native, all are adapted. These are in beds. I don't have a jungle of
vines and messy looking weeds...IN THE FRONT. Where I live in Austin, people
who remove sod and put in native landscapes are applauded. The photo's I saw of
the offending person with the Backyard Wildlife certification had a very messy
looking front garden. It's why people complained. Nobody complains to me or
about me and it is my goal to remove all but around 300 square feet of turf in
the front. I've already removed 90 percent of the turf in the backyard and I
have half acre.


Real estate agents say the 3 most important items are location, location, location.

Partially true. Landscaping is high on the order of things which help sell a
house. Our last house was sold in a few days because the person loved the
garden.


I think the whole "property values degraded by x,y,z" is a myth promulgated by
control freaks. the fact is having an asshole crazy neighbor is more likely the
reason for people to dump their house and take a loss to move, which is not something
one would know as they look over the house and give a bid. In fact, the main reason
people sell their house is their job has moved, divorce, want smaller or larger house
or they died. And anybody thinks buying a great big new house is a great investment
better think again. It is a great investment for the developer, but I classify great
big expensive new homes along with great big expensive new SUVs and high flying Enron
stock. When the oil hits the fan none of em are going to hold their value. Good ol'
conservative Milwaukee must be leading the nation .. the great big new homes out in
the burbs are standing empty, a drag on the market and people are moving back into
town where there is a building boom going on. Ingrid

Control freaks? People who live in my development all signed an agreement.
They could have moved elsewhere. Fortunately, I don't have problems here. We
have a small sub-division of 35 homes, all at least half acre zoned.

BTW, my asshole crazy neighbor couldn't make me do anything. Not in this
lifetime. He can die trying, though.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 01:42:23 GMT, "Warren" wrote:


In the last year, three houses along my way out to the main road went up
for sale. They all used to have just grass and some small shrubs. The
mailbox was the most outstanding part of their landscaping.

It's much like that here, too.

As soon as they went on the market, they were out there planting all
kinds of color spots, and replacing some of the shaggier shrubs with
perennials.

Along the same vein, I'm not sure I would have been excited enough about
putting in an offer on my house if it wasn't for the landscaping,
including what's in the front.

The only reason we bought this house was out of desperation. This was the only
new house in all of the Austin area which was almost ready to move into. We
bought at the tail end of the sellers market.

Occasionally I'll take a side trip off the beaten path to look at the
interesting landscaping in the front yards. Of course this is a waste of
time in the newer subdivisions, but any of the areas around here that
were built before 1980 have lots of interesting front yard landscaping.
And yes, wildflowers are not uncommon.

We love to do this, too. My husband and I call it "getting lost on a Sunday."
We also go on day long leaf bag collections in older neighborhoods where there
are pockets of pines.

But this is the Portland, OR metro area, where landscaping is darn near
a competitive sport. Slowly, but surely, the newer subdivisions get more
and more interesting landscaping in the front yard.

Yes, sport is a good word! My neighbors get the benefits of my gardening.
Every year I give away more and more divisions of ornamental grasses and
perennials. This year I gave away 10 vitex trees which came up from seed and
pots and pots of grasses.

I am working on a proposition for the city of Round Rock, TX to make it code to
use only native shrubs and trees for residential new construction. There is
already a code in place for commercial landscapes. Some of the nicest
landscaping around are in the larger shopping centers. We have outdoor malls,
and lots of them.

Now if you go further into the city, especially in the neighborhoods
with small lots, you'll even find vegetable gardens in the front yard.
Some of the newer in-fill developments are being designed with front
porches, and areas intended for personalized gardening in an attempt to
bring more life to the street, and foster a community atmosphere.

Nice.

Around here, property values would probably go down if the front yard
gardens went away.

You can only out-do your neighbor's Christmas lights for one month a
year. You can out-do your neighbor's landscaping all year if you plan it
right.

And it doesn't have to look like a big shit pile if it is considered a native
landscape/wildlife habitat.

Victoria

On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:04:27 -0800, "Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A."
wrote:

animaux wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003 01:11:02 GMT, C. Hurst wrote:

The ultimate in biological terrorism...a ticked -off neighbor with a
sack of dandelion seeds


Carla (...who thinks that everyone should be able to experience the
golden splendor of dandelions...)


To which that attacked neighbor will apply herbicides and the beat goes on.

Killing their lawn, while you keep sneaking up on the upwind side with
more seedheads.

Nah. I don't play those games. Who has time to do such nonsense.

animaux wrote:

On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:04:27 -0800, "Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A."
wrote:

animaux wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003 01:11:02 GMT, C. Hurst wrote:

The ultimate in biological terrorism...a ticked -off neighbor with a
sack of dandelion seeds


Carla (...who thinks that everyone should be able to experience the
golden splendor of dandelions...)


To which that attacked neighbor will apply herbicides and the beat goes on.

Killing their lawn, while you keep sneaking up on the upwind side with
more seedheads.

Nah. I don't play those games. Who has time to do such nonsense.

Local kids.

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003 15:28:16 GMT, animaux
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003 01:11:02 GMT, C. Hurst wrote:


The ultimate in biological terrorism...a ticked -off neighbor with a
sack of dandelion seeds


To which that attacked neighbor will apply herbicides and the beat goes on.

One would think that devoted, or even interested gardeners would be a
gentlefolk. Yet so many of the posts here are of revenge, attack,
lawsuit, "getting back at." Of course there are always Noxious
Neighbors who blight one's gardens and neighborhoods, but I hopefully
think most aren't driven by malicious intent. A few errant dandelions
can escalate into a shotgun attack in today's climate. Why make
someone else's life miserable because you feel you are wronged? Why
escalate confrontation? ['though I'm all in favor of eschewing
obfuscation.] *Why* does someone have a washing machine in their yard?
Is it because they can't afford to have it hauled away? Surely not, or
at least seldom, that they regard it as an ornament to their
landscape. *Talk* to people. *Tell* them what your objections are, and
listen to their response. Offer to help. Explain exactly why their
habits annoy you or are contrary to local regs, and that you'd rather
speak personally than call the Weed Police. Or torch their trees and
poison their animals.

On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 15:51:31 GMT, (Frogleg) wrote:


One would think that devoted, or even interested gardeners would be a
gentlefolk. Yet so many of the posts here are of revenge, attack,
lawsuit, "getting back at." Of course there are always Noxious
Neighbors who blight one's gardens and neighborhoods, but I hopefully
think most aren't driven by malicious intent. A few errant dandelions
can escalate into a shotgun attack in today's climate. Why make
someone else's life miserable because you feel you are wronged? Why
escalate confrontation? ['though I'm all in favor of eschewing
obfuscation.] *Why* does someone have a washing machine in their yard?
Is it because they can't afford to have it hauled away? Surely not, or
at least seldom, that they regard it as an ornament to their
landscape. *Talk* to people. *Tell* them what your objections are, and
listen to their response. Offer to help. Explain exactly why their
habits annoy you or are contrary to local regs, and that you'd rather
speak personally than call the Weed Police. Or torch their trees and
poison their animals.

I haven't the slightest idea of who or what you are referring to. Nobody
suggested we poison animals or torch trees.

*Talk* to people. *Tell* them what your objections are, and
listen to their response. Offer to help. Explain exactly why their
habits annoy you or are contrary to local regs, and that you'd rather
speak personally than call the Weed Police. Or torch their trees and
poison their animals.

I haven't the slightest idea of who or what you are referring to. Nobody
suggested we poison animals or torch trees.


It comes up all the time here, and you know it. It just hasn't been
mentioned in this particular message thread. Yet.

Best regards,
Bob

You have been gardening a long time. Your gardens are going to look good and no
matter how much pain you are in you will drag yourself outside to weed and keep it
under control. Not everyone has the talent, the time, the taste. But up here the
big houses on 1/4 acre in the new burbs have nearly the identical industrial/cookie
cutter design plantings and that is ALL they have. I think we are talking about
different kinds of agreements cause I think they all have the same company come to
spray with poisons and plant the same pathetic plants and trees and the same COLOR
mulch. there is NO individuality at all. there are no cottage gardens out front.
so that is what I am describing and decrying.
I am quite sure that you didnt buy your present house for the landscaping... LOL, if
I remember your pictures correctly there wasnt any soil either???? So you did buy
this house because of the location, or was it something else? Ingrid

animaux wrote:
I never said that. Each week I remove more and more turf and put in plants.
Most are native, all are adapted. These are in beds. I don't have a jungle of
vines and messy looking weeds...IN THE FRONT.

Control freaks? People who live in my development all signed an agreement.
They could have moved elsewhere. Fortunately, I don't have problems here. We
have a small sub-division of 35 homes, all at least half acre zoned.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

OK.. that is what I thought, but didnt want to say it. Somehow I remembered you were
really sick and had to make the move and were desperate about taking as many plants
with you as possible and desperate about getting them heeled in if not planted. but
then my memory is going too, so wasnt sure I remembered right. in the "covenants"
near my mothers it sure doesnt look like individuality in planting is allowed at all.
In the city built up around my mother fences are discouraged or mostly banned now.
So a 6' high x 8' long privacy fence is allowed when it comes off the corner of the
house on one side of a patio. fences on lot lines can only be wood 3' high and must
be 50% open. 6' high fences around swimming pools are only allowed to be 3' from the
side of the pool. Cannot put up any kind of fence that would keep either rabbits or
deer out of plantings ... and that includes veggie gardens! which is why there are
such limited plants used .. the place is overrun with rabbits and deer. Now these
are the new rules and apply to EVERYONE in the city, doesnt matter if they were here
100 or 50 or 25 or 1 year ago. Ingrid

animaux wrote:
The only reason we bought this house was out of desperation. This was the only
new house in all of the Austin area which was almost ready to move into.

Every year I give away more and more divisions of ornamental grasses and
perennials. This year I gave away 10 vitex trees which came up from seed and
pots and pots of grasses.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.