Sorry Miracle Grow, but you are a prime example of what I mean. They claim
they can sell you plant food.

1st, trees are autotrophs and not heterotrophs.

Autotrophs make their own food. Heterotrophs have to have it made for them.

Most plants, there are exceptions, are autotrophs. The ghost flower is an
exception. It has no chlorophyll therefore cannot photosynthesize. It gets
its food from other plants by means of the bicarbohydrate transfer of
plants. You will still not find plant food in a bag on a shelf. They say I
play word games. Think for a minute, Consider poor Joe who liked alcohol.
Drank methanol rather than ethanol. He then quickly learned, as his brain
got burned. That words are important after all.

The point is that people who do not understand plants really think they are
feeding their plants by adding elements (fertilizers). I called them the
other day (MGrow)and the guy tried to convince me that elements were
nutrients. You can put a element in a nutrient but you can not put a
nutrient in an element. You can put a file in a folder but you cannot put a
folder in a file. I think it is a serious problem. The guy told me that
they add N-P-K and that's all you need because the other essential elements
are there. Short of a soil test I find that hard to believe. By adding
nitrogen you increase the plant in mass. However , when you do that you
increase its requirements for food for defense. You increase the demands
for the other 16 essential elements and water when you increase the size of
the symplast of the plant.

The more nitrogen you add the more the chances are you will get sucking
insects. They say that's ok, heres somethiong to kill the sucking insects.
They want me to believe that adding food causes sucking insects? A good
example of this is the xmas tree farms. They sock the trees with N for big
growth yet they have lots of sucking insects. Another example is if you
have fire blight. Adding N will increase your plants problems. Does that
mean by feeding the plant we increase fire blight? Silly. But thats want
the product pushers want you to believe.

What the guy from M. Grow did not understand was that if calcium or boron is
lacking you will have problems. Nickel was added to the list of essential
elements by Penn State.

There are 17 essential elements. They are required in different amounts by
the plants. I do not refer to micro elements as minner elements because
they are anything but miner. Try telling that to M. Grow.



Its my responsability as a arborist to prov ide sound information to
clients. Would you go to a doctor who said you were an autotroph. What if
he said he had a bag of chemicals to help you photosythize. Thats silly.
Just as silly as plant food in a bag for autotrophs. They know this at M.
Grow. People like to feed their trees so they calkl it plant food. Ask
them, that's what they told me. I am not against fertilizing after proper
mulching. Remember there are 17 essential elements.



If your tree is deficient in boron, then by adding boron you may help the
plant. Its just not that simple. pH for starters plays a key role. If you
have high pH soil for your pin oak, you could add all the iron in the world
and it would not make a difference. Microorganisms alter chemical elements
so they can be absorbed. Properly adding composted wood chips and leaves
stimulate and feed such organisms. We can FEED the SOIL with composted wood
and leaves providing carbohydrates to soil organisms.



We can feed the system, not the plant. Nitrogen is an energy source for
decay fungi or rot. Add nitrogen to your compost pile and it will stimulate
the microorganisms thus speeding up the decay (rot) process. You can also
stimulate root rot of trees by fertilizing the soil around the infected
roots with nitrogen. HOW IS THIS FEEDING THE TREE?

Food is a substance that provides and energy source, mostly. Nutrient is a
substance that provides an energy source, elements, and other substances
essential for life, in types and amounts that can provide a healthy life.
Fertilizer is a substance that provides elements, as salts mostly, or in
bonded forms, that require microorganisms to alter to forms that can be
absorbed by plants. I do not call elements - nutrients, however nutrients
would contain elements. You can put a file in a folder but you can't put a
folder in a file. A list of elements can be found he
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...US211%26sa%3DX

17 Elements For Life - Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Phosphorus,
Potassium, Calcium, Sulfur, Magnesium, Manganese, Iron, Copper, Boron,
Molybdenum, Chlorine, Zinc, Nickel [Sodium, Cobalt, Selenium?]

14 essential elements are obtained by trees from the soil. I do not have a
list of which ones they are.

Wood is the substrate of the base of the food web, the mycorrhizal fungi.
Mycorrhizae tend to be abundant in composted wood such as nurse logs. We
had great success at tree biology workshops finding mycorrhizae during dryer
times, in and about nurse logs. I believe, you don't have to agree with it,
please, just think. I think that by applying mulch as I recommend under
mulch here that you facilitate the mycorrhizae rather than just adding
fertilizer. Not that its bad in any way, fertilizer i.e.. Over
fertilizing with nitrogen is a serious problem for trees. Over nitrogen
leads to sucking insects.

Mulching - http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/sub3.html
and
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/M/ Look up "Mulch"

Did I say - Mycorrhizae are organs that facilitate the absorption of
elements essential for healthy growth. Mycorrhizae resist the Demons Of D.
Mycorrhizae facilitate the absorption of elements. Demons of D are those
things that add up to the big D word DEATH. E.g., Depletion, disruption,
and dysfunction. Elements can be depleted. Disruption, you get hit my a
Mac truck. Dysfunction, some organ such as mycorrhizae may not function.


Major Elements C; H; N; O; P; K; S; Mg; Ni; Fe; Ca; Zn; Mo; Mn; B; Cl; Cu

There is the law of the minimum. It states the element that is deficient
the most, would be the determining factor in the health of the tree.

I think research would be wise in the search for the optimum fertility level
for trees.

I did some soil testing in the upper four inches of soil and from at and
about nurse logs in old growth forest which contain hemlocks and white
pines. And much more. Here is my average on my testing for the latter.
These where five test. 3 test sites where in Allegheny National
Forest(Hearts Content) Pennsylvania
and two where in Allegheny National Forest(Tionesta Scenic area)
Pennsylvania.
Results are in Pounds Per Acre PPA. AVAILABLE ELEMENTS
P 8.2
K 236
Mg 107
Ca 594
Al 220.6
Fe 110.8
Mn 118.6
Zn 11.96
NO3-N 28.8
Did not get B or CU.
Organic matter was 29.32%
Ex Acidity 81 ME/100G
Salts mmho: 0.01 mmho/cm
Moisture %3.97
Water Soluble mg/kg B 1.0738
ACID Soluble (mg/kg)
Cd 0.976
Cu 6.768
Ni 5.71 (Penn State discovered the element Ni to be essential in small
amounts)
Mn 426.378
Co 3.084
Zn 46.818
Pb 101.792
Cr 5.078
P 726.226
The CARBON TO NITROGEN RATION was 27:1
pH 4.2 WOW

That would be a goal of mine if I was going to provide essential elements
professionally. I did not see to many people in the old growth sections.

There was more calcium at a nurse logs in a separate test.

We don't feed trees, however, we can feed the soil with composted wood
(chips and nurse logs) and leaves. We can feed the system.

I have some results for some sick hemlocks (elements in soil) If anybody
would like to share results please contact me and we can discus fertilizing
hemlocks and white pines.



What are you thoughts?

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
Sorry Miracle Grow, but you are a prime example of what I mean. They
claim they can sell you plant food.

~snipped for efficient band width usage~

What are you thoughts?

Interesting that this topic was covered in about 4 minutes, in simple
layman's terms, on Seattle's Cisco show a few days ago. Essentially his
message was nourish and build the soil, don't feed the plant. If the soil is
healthy the plant will take care of its self. Test your soil and go organic.
Miracle Gro was mentioned, after a quick sucking of air through the teeth,
nervous chuckle and "Oooo, la la" his answer was pretty much; You'll get
fast lush growth, very pretty for the short term but creates a plant magnet
for sucking insects and disease. Healthy soil, healthy plants more resistant
to insects, disease and extreme weather. Compost, compost, compost and go
organic.

I use no pesticides. My only soil amendments and additions are from a small
worm bin (no longer have a large garden and there's no room for a compost
bin on my apartment balcony) and a bag of organic alfalfa pellets purchased
at a feed store, has been for years. I have a wide variety of exceptionally
healthy trees, vines, flowers (mostly perennials), herbs, various bulbs (the
same ones I planted 6 years ago and they keep right on blooming and
multiplying, like I was told they wouldn't) and plants, many of which I was
told would not grow in containers but are doing beautifully, with only an
occasional spring aphid infestation that is quickly staunched by a good
blast of water. I have also not changed out any of the soil in the pots for
over 6 years and IMO it's now better than the original bagged stuff I
started with. Oh, and not to forget, I give everything a good drink in early
spring and mid summer with liquid kelp. It all works well for me. I have
people from 3 stories below on the sidewalk call up to me when I am working
on my balcony to tell me how incredibly lush and beautiful it looks.

Val

Val

I really hate mentioning product names. Anyway, one fertilizer I use is
"plant tone". Its mislabeled as well. It is supposed to have 16 essential
elements. Used to have a big jug of micro-elements. It had no nitrogen.
I wish I could find it again.

If anybody knows of a source for micro-elements please let me know. I would
like to add it to my tool box.

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.


"Val" wrote in message
...

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
Sorry Miracle Grow, but you are a prime example of what I mean. They
claim they can sell you plant food.

~snipped for efficient band width usage~

What are you thoughts?

Interesting that this topic was covered in about 4 minutes, in simple
layman's terms, on Seattle's Cisco show a few days ago. Essentially his
message was nourish and build the soil, don't feed the plant. If the soil
is healthy the plant will take care of its self. Test your soil and go
organic. Miracle Gro was mentioned, after a quick sucking of air through
the teeth, nervous chuckle and "Oooo, la la" his answer was pretty much;
You'll get fast lush growth, very pretty for the short term but creates a
plant magnet for sucking insects and disease. Healthy soil, healthy plants
more resistant to insects, disease and extreme weather. Compost, compost,
compost and go organic.

I use no pesticides. My only soil amendments and additions are from a
small worm bin (no longer have a large garden and there's no room for a
compost bin on my apartment balcony) and a bag of organic alfalfa pellets
purchased at a feed store, has been for years. I have a wide variety of
exceptionally healthy trees, vines, flowers (mostly perennials), herbs,
various bulbs (the same ones I planted 6 years ago and they keep right on
blooming and multiplying, like I was told they wouldn't) and plants, many
of which I was told would not grow in containers but are doing
beautifully, with only an occasional spring aphid infestation that is
quickly staunched by a good blast of water. I have also not changed out
any of the soil in the pots for over 6 years and IMO it's now better than
the original bagged stuff I started with. Oh, and not to forget, I give
everything a good drink in early spring and mid summer with liquid kelp.
It all works well for me. I have people from 3 stories below on the
sidewalk call up to me when I am working on my balcony to tell me how
incredibly lush and beautiful it looks.

Val

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
Val

I really hate mentioning product names. Anyway, one fertilizer I use is
"plant tone". Its mislabeled as well. It is supposed to have 16
essential
elements. Used to have a big jug of micro-elements. It had no nitrogen.
I wish I could find it again.

If anybody knows of a source for micro-elements please let me know. I
would
like to add it to my tool box.

Medina Soil Activator, Medina Plus w/40 trace elements, BioZome

http://medina.theshoppe.com/medina_plus_quart.html

http://www.biozome.com/pages/what.html