On 12/22/2007 1:55 PM, CORVIDSTATION61 wrote:
Hi,
Just a quick one.
I know how to increase the soils PH. But what do i add to bring it
down.
Thanks Mark

Besides sulfur and iron sulfate, use nutrients (including fertilizers)
that are acidic. For nitrogen, I use ammonium sulfate, being careful
not to use a lot all at once because it can burn both foliage and roots.
I dose my roses with Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) because the
magnesium promotes the growth of new "canes". My citrus and gardenia
get a small amount of zinc sulfate added to the fertilizer whenever I
feed them because they need more zinc than most other plants.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) is very slightly acidic. I use large
quantities to break up my clay soil, but that's still not enough to have
any significant impact on soil pH.

Sulfur and the sulfates acidify the soil through the action of soil
bacteria that slowly convert sulfur into sulfuric acid. Be careful that
you don't overwhelm these bacteria with too much sulfur and fertilizer
all at once.

Elemental sulfur does not readily dissolve and remains on the surface.
Thus, you must create an environment where the acidifying bacteria are
also on the surface. It helps to keep a light mulch of compost or
decomposing leaves. On the other hand, most sulfates do dissolve quite
easily. (Compost itself tends to be acidic as is peat moss. My compost
is mostly leaf mold, which is even more acidic than normal compost.)

Where the soils or water are naturally alkaline, acidifying is a
constant effort. The sulfuric acid is quickly neutralized; what is left
leaches through the soil beyond where it will have any benefit. I
broadcast sulfur around selected plants every year.

NO! Do not add sulfuric acid to your soil. You will kill everything.
Let sulfuric acid be formed gradually by natural processes.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening pages at http://www.rossde.com/garden/

Good question.

The element sulfur would lower pH. However it keeps reverting back.

You could add pine needles.

Two good articles of pH:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/CHEM.html

http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/RHIZO.html

In Fact I just searched for pH and found it to be mentioned in most of these
article.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/index.html


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

"CORVIDSTATION61" wrote in
message ...

Hi,
Just a quick one.
I know how to increase the soils PH. But what do i add to bring it
down.
Thanks Mark




--
CORVIDSTATION61

"symplastless" wrote:

The element sulfur would lower pH. However it keeps reverting back.

Actually elemental sulfur is very slow acting and lasts quite a while,
but should be built up slightly every couple years in smaller doses.
Its advantage is that it can provide a very strong effect if needed by
applying more.

You could add pine needles.

Pine needles and oak leaves work, but they rot and need to be
replenished annually. They are rather weak and can't be used to make
too large a change.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
http://rhodyman.net/rahome.html
Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
http://rhodyman.net/rabooks.html
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6

"Stephen Henning" wrote in message
news
"symplastless" wrote:

The element sulfur would lower pH. However it keeps reverting back.

Actually elemental sulfur is very slow acting and lasts quite a while,
but should be built up slightly every couple years in smaller doses.
Its advantage is that it can provide a very strong effect if needed by
applying more.

You could add pine needles.

Pine needles and oak leaves work, but they rot and need to be
replenished annually. They are rather weak and can't be used to make
too large a change.
Yes but you are feeding the soil. that is huge!!!!!!! Some composted wood
chips for calcium and such would be nice.

See Trouble in the Rhizpsphere for starters.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/RHIZO.html

and

http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/CHEM.html

A suggestion by the late Alex L. Shigo -Rather than through leaves away,
why not put them into biodegradable lace-like bags, and use them for flowers
and garden mulch. Add a little fertilizer and by the next season the leaves
will be gone and the soil will be much better.

--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

here are some more words on mulch
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...lch_AAA-2.html


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

"Stephen Henning" wrote in message
news
"symplastless" wrote:

The element sulfur would lower pH. However it keeps reverting back.

Actually elemental sulfur is very slow acting and lasts quite a while,
but should be built up slightly every couple years in smaller doses.
Its advantage is that it can provide a very strong effect if needed by
applying more.

You could add pine needles.

Pine needles and oak leaves work, but they rot and need to be
replenished annually. They are rather weak and can't be used to make
too large a change.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
http://rhodyman.net/rahome.html
Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
http://rhodyman.net/rabooks.html
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6

On Dec 22, 1:55*pm, CORVIDSTATION61
wrote:
Hi,
Just a quick one.
I know how to increase the soils PH. But what do i add to bring it
down.
Thanks Mark

--
CORVIDSTATION61

Why not add biology and let nature fix the pH for you? I would use
compost tea personally before adding a bunch of other chemicals or
minerals to your soil. What was the pH again and what do you want it
to be? Why is it too high in the first place?

One of the problems using tea alone is that you deprive the soil from
cellulose which would be provide by added composted wood chips. Remember,
mulch comes in different gradations. From teas to large fallen tree trunks.

Don't get me wrong. Teas can be very very good by adding certain essential
elements. In the same sentence composted wood chips has its benefits as
well. Using just composted wood chips for trees is not best. Some
composted leaves and needles plus wood chips composted. A nurse log here
and there. Then a tea. When you say tea are you talking about biodynamic
preparations?

--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.


"Tad" wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 1:55 pm, CORVIDSTATION61
wrote:
Hi,
Just a quick one.
I know how to increase the soils PH. But what do i add to bring it
down.
Thanks Mark

--
CORVIDSTATION61

Why not add biology and let nature fix the pH for you? I would use
compost tea personally before adding a bunch of other chemicals or
minerals to your soil. What was the pH again and what do you want it
to be? Why is it too high in the first place?

On Dec 28, 4:12 pm, "symplastless" wrote:
One of the problems using tea alone is that you deprive the soil from
cellulose which would be provide by added composted wood chips. Remember,
mulch comes in different gradations. From teas to large fallen tree trunks.

Don't get me wrong. Teas can be very very good by adding certain essential
elements. In the same sentence composted wood chips has its benefits as
well. Using just composted wood chips for trees is not best. Some
composted leaves and needles plus wood chips composted. A nurse log here
and there. Then a tea. When you say tea are you talking about biodynamic
preparations?

wrote:
Hi,
Just a quick one.
I know how to increase the soils PH. But what do i add to bring it
down.
Thanks Mark

Why not add biology and let nature fix the pH for you? I would use
compost tea personally before adding a bunch of other chemicals or
minerals to your soil. What was the pH again and what do you want it
to be? Why is it too high in the first place?

And don't forget coffee grounds to lower the PH.

Patrick

On Dec 28, 2:12*pm, "symplastless" wrote:
One of the problems using tea alone is that you deprive the soil from
cellulose which would be provide by added composted wood chips. *Remember,
mulch comes in different gradations. *From teas to large fallen tree trunks.

Don't get me wrong. *Teas can be very very good by adding certain essential
elements. *In the same sentence composted wood chips has its benefits as
well. *Using just composted wood chips for trees is not best. *Some
composted leaves and needles plus wood chips composted. *A nurse log here
and there. *Then a tea. *When you say tea are you talking about biodynamic
preparations?

--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arboristhttp://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and *www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

"Tad" wrote in message

...
On Dec 22, 1:55 pm, CORVIDSTATION61

wrote:
Hi,
Just a quick one.
I know how to increase the soils PH. But what do i add to bring it
down.
Thanks Mark

--
CORVIDSTATION61

Why not add biology and let nature fix the pH for you? *I would use
compost tea personally before adding a bunch of other chemicals or
minerals to your soil. *What was the pH again and what do you want it
to be? *Why is it too high in the first place?

Please explain to me how Actively Aerated Compost Tea removes
cellulose from the environment. This is not the case at all. In
addition, the purpose of these teas is NOT to provide "certian
essential elements." The purpose is to put additional biology into
the soil. Nature will correct imbalances given time and the proper
beneficial biology. Compost is another option, it is just more
expensive and time consuming. The key is to fix the problem itself,
not to just mask the symptoms.

"Tad" wrote in message
...
On Dec 28, 2:12 pm, "symplastless" wrote:
One of the problems using tea alone is that you deprive the soil from
cellulose which would be provide by added composted wood chips. Remember,
mulch comes in different gradations. From teas to large fallen tree
trunks.
`
Don't get me wrong. Teas can be very very good by adding certain essential
elements. In the same sentence composted wood chips has its benefits as
well. Using just composted wood chips for trees is not best. Some
composted leaves and needles plus wood chips composted. A nurse log here
and there. Then a tea. When you say tea are you talking about biodynamic
preparations?

--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arboristhttp://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us
that we are not the boss.

"Tad" wrote in message

...
On Dec 22, 1:55 pm, CORVIDSTATION61

wrote:
Hi,
Just a quick one.
I know how to increase the soils PH. But what do i add to bring it
down.
Thanks Mark

--
CORVIDSTATION61

Why not add biology and let nature fix the pH for you? I would use
compost tea personally before adding a bunch of other chemicals or
minerals to your soil. What was the pH again and what do you want it
to be? Why is it too high in the first place?

Please explain to me how Actively Aerated Compost Tea removes
cellulose from the environment.

[By adding composted wood chips and leaves as mulch, lets say, for trees,
you are providing a carbon based cellulose (food) for the soil. By not
applying composted wood chips and leaves you are not applying cellulose.]

This is not the case at all. In
addition, the purpose of these teas is NOT to provide "certian
essential elements."

[If you are not providing essential elements, while removing fallen leaves
and wood when they fall, where are those elements going to come from?]

The purpose is to put additional biology into
the soil.

[To put "additional biology" into the soil. What does that mean?]

Nature will correct imbalances given time and the proper
beneficial biology.

[Are you claiming nature is balanced? Balance is the equalization of
opposing forces. All is still. No movement. Stop. Death. When any system
in nature becomes balanced, it dies and gives up its energy. In a sense
nature moves towards balance. Many built in processes resist balance.]


Compost is another option, it is just more
expensive and time consuming. The key is to fix the problem itself,
not to just mask the symptoms.

Please explain the chemistry behind this treatment?


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

"Tad" wrote in message
...
On Dec 28, 2:12 pm, "symplastless" wrote:
One of the problems using tea alone is that you deprive the soil from
cellulose which would be provide by added composted wood chips. Remember,
mulch comes in different gradations. From teas to large fallen tree
trunks.
`
Don't get me wrong. Teas can be very very good by adding certain essential
elements. In the same sentence composted wood chips has its benefits as
well. Using just composted wood chips for trees is not best. Some
composted leaves and needles plus wood chips composted. A nurse log here
and there. Then a tea. When you say tea are you talking about biodynamic
preparations?

--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arboristhttp://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us
that we are not the boss.

"Tad" wrote in message

...
On Dec 22, 1:55 pm, CORVIDSTATION61

wrote:
Hi,
Just a quick one.
I know how to increase the soils PH. But what do i add to bring it
down.
Thanks Mark

--
CORVIDSTATION61

Why not add biology and let nature fix the pH for you? I would use
compost tea personally before adding a bunch of other chemicals or
minerals to your soil. What was the pH again and what do you want it
to be? Why is it too high in the first place?

Please explain to me how Actively Aerated Compost Tea removes
cellulose from the environment.

[By adding composted wood chips and leaves as mulch, lets say, for trees,
you are providing a carbon based cellulose (food) for the soil. By not
applying composted wood chips and leaves you are not applying cellulose.]

This is not the case at all. In
addition, the purpose of these teas is NOT to provide "certian
essential elements."

[If you are not providing essential elements, while removing fallen leaves
and wood when they fall, where are those elements going to come from?]

The purpose is to put additional biology into
the soil.

[To put "additional biology" into the soil. What does that mean?]

Nature will correct imbalances given time and the proper
beneficial biology.

[Are you claiming nature is balanced? Balance is the equalization of
opposing forces. All is still. No movement. Stop. Death. When any system
in nature becomes balanced, it dies and gives up its energy. In a sense
nature moves towards balance. Many built in processes resist balance.]


Compost is another option, it is just more
expensive and time consuming. The key is to fix the problem itself,
not to just mask the symptoms.

Please explain the chemistry behind this treatment?

Oy gewalt, John. Cellulose is a form of glucose (6 CO2(gas) + 12
H2O(liquid) + photons (sun light) -- C6H12O6 (aqueous) + 6 O2(gas) + 6
H2O(liquid)) that needs termite bacteria or fungi to break it back down
into simple glucose that returns to the soil community as amino acids or
simple sugars. When you add mulch to a garden, the mulch doesn't
penetrate the soil but its' break down products do, to feed the flora
and fauna of the soil. Compost tea does the same thing and adds more
micro critters at the same time. Compost will break down and its'
chemical components with percolate through the soil to feed the
micro-critters. Having a constant population of living and dying
microorganisms provides the plants with the nitrogen and other fudge
factors that they need to produce the phyto nurients that make the
plants, and as the case may be, consumers of the plants, healthy.

Please respond, if you have any more questions.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush

John,

I see that Billy already responded to your email. Here's a good
starting point for reading more about what I'm talking about.

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_us/approach.html

Check out the section on compost tea. You're adding beneficial
aerobic microorganisms such as bacteria, fungi, flagellates,
cilliates, and nematodes. These increase nutrient cycling, as most of
the nutrients the plant needs are already in the soil, just not in an
available form.

When I say that nature will correct imbalances, I did not mean that
everything stops and dies in nature. I think that is a ridiculous
interpretation of what I was saying. What I mean is that in nature
when a disease or other imbalance (in this case we're talking pH)
occurs, nature (biology) will in time correct these problems in most
instances. You don't see people spraying herbicides and pesticides in
old growth forests do you? Or applying fertilizer? These ecosystems
were created self-sustaining by nature, without our chemical inputs.
This is what I'm talking about when I suggest using biology.

~Tad

PS: Please take the time to look at the link I provided. If you still
have questions, feel free to respond.

In article
,
Tad wrote:

John,

I see that Billy already responded to your email. Here's a good
starting point for reading more about what I'm talking about.

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_us/approach.html

Check out the section on compost tea. You're adding beneficial
aerobic microorganisms such as bacteria, fungi, flagellates,
cilliates, and nematodes. These increase nutrient cycling, as most of
the nutrients the plant needs are already in the soil, just not in an
available form.

When I say that nature will correct imbalances, I did not mean that
everything stops and dies in nature. I think that is a ridiculous
interpretation of what I was saying. What I mean is that in nature
when a disease or other imbalance (in this case we're talking pH)
occurs, nature (biology) will in time correct these problems in most
instances. You don't see people spraying herbicides and pesticides in
old growth forests do you? Or applying fertilizer? These ecosystems
were created self-sustaining by nature, without our chemical inputs.
This is what I'm talking about when I suggest using biology.

~Tad

PS: Please take the time to look at the link I provided. If you still
have questions, feel free to respond.

Tad,

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_us/approach.html appears to be a
GREAT site. I haven't read much of it yet but I was struck by a repeated
passage:
" Bacteria (and fungi) need N, P, K, Ca, and all the other nutrients as
well, and obtain those from organic matter and from inorganic sources as
well."

It may look at first blush that the authors are recommending the use of
"N,P,K chemical fertilizers" (I suspect they aren't.). My understanding
from reading "Teaming with Microbes" by Lowenfels and Lewis is that
most commercial sources rely on salts to nurture the plants and soil.
Salts, in turn, have an detrimental osmotic effect on microorganism. I
presume that the higher the concentration of salts the greater the
detriment and vice-á-versa.

I'm just throwing in my 2¢ worth in and recommend that beginners try to
only use organic fertilizers with food stuffs until they understand
organic principals.

Apropos a discussion in "wrecked gardens.edible" on the dandelion, which
has deep roots and will translocate Ca and K from subsoils to the
surface. It, I believe, is also the only diuretic that supplies
potassium.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush

Tad,

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_...ch.htmlappears to be a
GREAT site. I haven't read much of it yet but I was struck by a repeated
passage:
" Bacteria (and fungi) need N, P, K, Ca, and all the other nutrients as
well, and obtain those from organic matter and from inorganic sources as
well."

It may look at first blush that the authors are recommending the use of
"N,P,K chemical fertilizers" (I suspect they aren't.). My understanding
from reading "Teaming with Microbes" *by Lowenfels and Lewis is that
most commercial sources rely on salts to nurture the plants and soil.
Salts, in turn, have an detrimental osmotic effect on microorganism. I
presume that the higher the concentration of salts the greater the
detriment and vice-á-versa.

I'm just throwing in my 2¢ worth in and recommend that beginners try to
only use organic fertilizers with food stuffs until they understand
organic principals.

Apropos a discussion in "wrecked gardens.edible" on the dandelion, which
has deep roots and will translocate Ca and K from subsoils to the
surface. It, I believe, is also the only diuretic that supplies
potassium.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Barshttp://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_to_impeach_George_W._Bush- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Billy,

The author of all the writings on the website is Dr. Elaine Ingham.
She is a well known in the industry and one of the pioneers in
research and theory relating to the Soil Food Web. She also wrote the
preface to Jeff Lowenfels' Book (another great resource). You are
correct in what you interpreted from Jeff's book. He recommends
organic fertilizers with NPK below 5-5-5. What Dr. Ingham is stating
in the above quote is that the nutrients in most instances are already
tied up in the soil, and just need to made available to the plant
(this is where the biology comes in). The bacteria consume the
organic material, and then are eaten by larger organisms (flagellates,
cilliates, bacterial-feeding nematodes). The waste products of this
process results in plant available nutrients.

These increase nutrient cycling, as most of
the nutrients the plant needs are already in the soil, just not in an
available form.

I think you are referring to elements. many elements are provided in
composting wood. Especially the element calcium. In fact most parts shed
by the tree provide some elements. One part like the phellem does not
provide a food source for the soil. That's why I am against using all
phellem for mulch. One thing is nurse logs. Nurse logs are water
reservoirs for trees during dryer times. They are like a big sponge. No
spray will replace this unique feature. Trees were designed in groups with
shedding woody and non-woody parts constantly recycling elements and
providing carbon based substances for a food source. You just cannot take
all of the benefits of the ecological stages of trees for trees and their
associates and replace it with a tea. Again I am not against the tea and
think it would be of value in participation of a proper mulching program.

I mean for example. many tree associates are fungi eaters. Some of the
fungi they eat are associated with nurse logs or decomposing wood chips.
Nurse logs are the substrate for the base of the food web the mycorrhizal
fungi. Fallen trees harbor a myriad of organisms, from bacteria and
actinomycetes to higher fungi. Of these, only some of the fungi might be
noticed by the causal observer as mushrooms or bracket fungi. These
structures, however, are merely the fruiting bodies produced by mold
colonies within the log. Many fungi fruit within the fallen tree, therefore
they are seen only when the tree is torn apart. Even when a fallen tree is
torn apart, only a fraction of the fungi present are noticed because the
fruiting bodies of most appear only for a small portion of the year. The
smaller organisms, not visible to the unaided eye, are still important
components of the system (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par 5). This
process may not be possible with just using a tea. This type of an
ecosystem exists with the help of the ecological stage of trees.


You can find many of the benifits of wood for the system he
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...nce/index.html

Do you have a fact sheet or something on these teas? Are they a biodynamic
prep.?


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.




When I say that nature will correct imbalances, I did not mean that
everything stops and dies in nature. I think that is a ridiculous
interpretation of what I was saying. What I mean is that in nature
when a disease or other imbalance (in this case we're talking pH)
occurs, nature (biology) will in time correct these problems in most
instances. You don't see people spraying herbicides and pesticides in
old growth forests do you? Or applying fertilizer? These ecosystems
were created self-sustaining by nature, without our chemical inputs.
This is what I'm talking about when I suggest using biology.

~Tad

PS: Please take the time to look at the link I provided. If you still
have questions, feel free to respond.