" Bacteria (and fungi) need N, P, K, Ca, and all the other nutrients as
well, and obtain those from organic matter and from inorganic sources as
well."



N P K C and so on are elements and not nutrients.

Food, Nutrient, And Fertilizer - Food is a substance that provides and
energy source, mostly. Nutrient is a substance that provides an energy
source, elements, and other substances essential for life, in types and
amounts that can provide a healthy life. Fertilizer is a substance that
provides elements, as salts mostly, or in bonded forms, that require
microorganisms to alter to forms that can be absorbed by plants.

A nutrient - A substance that contains both an energy source and an
element source.


Nutrients - Fungi can absorb energy sources such as carbohydrates. Plants
cannot do so. Fungi can absorb nutrients. Nutrients are substances that
contain an energy source, elements, and other substances in types and
amounts that are essential for a healthy life. You can give a fungus a
nutrient in the dark and it will thrive. You can give a plant a nutrient in
the dark and it will die. Plants require light energy from the sun to "make"
glucose from carbon - dioxide and water. The process is called
photosynthesis. When you call fertilizers or nutrients food for trees and
other plants it shows you are ignorant of photosynthesis. many people
obviously do not understand plants. Sad, very sad.

Myths: Roots regenerate new roots, roots absorb nutrients, roots are all
shallow, roots are the most important part of a plant, roots have pith,
roots have heartwood, roots and stems are the same, roots have a green
cortex, roots have associations called mycorrhizae, roots absorb food, roots
are all below ground, roots on infant trees are the same as mature roots,
roots have flairs called root flairs, roots cannot live under pavements, all
roots absorb from the soil, over-pruning does not injure roots, roots do not
compartmentalize infections, roots are independent of the tops, you can
inoculate roots with mycorrhizae, root tips are called root hairs, only root
hairs absorb "food", roots go dormant in winter as the top does, roots have
buds, and probably many more! Is it any wonder trees have many problems!

A list of "elements" which I am talking about, can be found here in the
table:

Just to clearly define what I mean when I say element.
http://www.webelements.com/


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

Tad

Please define "nutrient".

Also as far as soil goes and the chemistry there of pertaining to trees can
be found he

http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/RHIZO.html


http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/CHEM.html


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.




"Tad" wrote in message
...

Tad,

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_...ch.htmlappears to be a
GREAT site. I haven't read much of it yet but I was struck by a repeated
passage:
" Bacteria (and fungi) need N, P, K, Ca, and all the other nutrients as
well, and obtain those from organic matter and from inorganic sources as
well."

It may look at first blush that the authors are recommending the use of
"N,P,K chemical fertilizers" (I suspect they aren't.). My understanding
from reading "Teaming with Microbes" by Lowenfels and Lewis is that
most commercial sources rely on salts to nurture the plants and soil.
Salts, in turn, have an detrimental osmotic effect on microorganism. I
presume that the higher the concentration of salts the greater the
detriment and vice-á-versa.

I'm just throwing in my 2¢ worth in and recommend that beginners try to
only use organic fertilizers with food stuffs until they understand
organic principals.

Apropos a discussion in "wrecked gardens.edible" on the dandelion, which
has deep roots and will translocate Ca and K from subsoils to the
surface. It, I believe, is also the only diuretic that supplies
potassium.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind
Barshttp://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_to_impeach_George_W._Bush-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Billy,

The author of all the writings on the website is Dr. Elaine Ingham.
She is a well known in the industry and one of the pioneers in
research and theory relating to the Soil Food Web. She also wrote the
preface to Jeff Lowenfels' Book (another great resource). You are
correct in what you interpreted from Jeff's book. He recommends
organic fertilizers with NPK below 5-5-5. What Dr. Ingham is stating
in the above quote is that the nutrients in most instances are already
tied up in the soil, and just need to made available to the plant
(this is where the biology comes in). The bacteria consume the
organic material, and then are eaten by larger organisms (flagellates,
cilliates, bacterial-feeding nematodes). The waste products of this
process results in plant available nutrients.

John,

nutrient
noun
a substance that provides nourishment essential for growth and the
maintenance of life : fish is a source of many important nutrients,
including protein, vitamins, and minerals.
ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: from Latin nutrient- "nourishing", from the
verb nutrire.

Please note, "including protein, vitamins, and minerals. There is no
energy in vitamins or minerals but they are nutrients.

One of my instructors once picked up a round metal trash can and asked
the class what it was. We, enthusiastically said it was a round metal
trash can. Where upon he turned it over and started drumming on it. What
is it?, he asked again. A drum we responded less enthusiastically. The
he sat it up-side down on the floor and sat on it. A thing is only
restricted in our imaginations as to what it is. It is what it does.

N, P, K, C and so on are elements and can be nutrients, except for N
which is pretty much worthless until it is converted into ammonia or
nitrate. C is also pretty inert biologically unless it come as CO2 or
carbohydrates.

Now, if you want to talk elements, we need to talk electron orbitals,
each of which has a "probability" of being in a particular area at any
given time. For our purposes, I presume you will be prepared to talk
about the s, p, d, and f orbitals next time. P orbitals are particularly
important because they allow for double bonds and aromaticity in
cyclical compounds, like tannins.




Food, Nutrient, And Fertilizer - Food is a substance that provides and
energy source, mostly. Nutrient is a substance that provides an energy
source, elements, and other substances essential for life, in types and
amounts that can provide a healthy life. Fertilizer is a substance that
provides elements, as salts mostly, or in bonded forms, that require
microorganisms to alter to forms that can be absorbed by plants.

A nutrient - A substance that contains both an energy source and an
element source.


Nutrients - Fungi can absorb energy sources such as carbohydrates. Plants
cannot do so. Fungi can absorb nutrients. Nutrients are substances that
contain an energy source, elements, and other substances in types and
amounts that are essential for a healthy life. You can give a fungus a
nutrient in the dark and it will thrive. You can give a plant a nutrient in
the dark and it will die. Plants require light energy from the sun to "make"
glucose from carbon - dioxide and water. The process is called
photosynthesis. When you call fertilizers or nutrients food for trees and
other plants it shows you are ignorant of photosynthesis. many people
obviously do not understand plants. Sad, very sad.

Myths: Roots regenerate new roots, roots absorb nutrients, roots are all
shallow, roots are the most important part of a plant, roots have pith,
roots have heartwood, roots and stems are the same, roots have a green
cortex, roots have associations called mycorrhizae, roots absorb food, roots
are all below ground, roots on infant trees are the same as mature roots,
roots have flairs called root flairs, roots cannot live under pavements, all
roots absorb from the soil, over-pruning does not injure roots, roots do not
compartmentalize infections, roots are independent of the tops, you can
inoculate roots with mycorrhizae, root tips are called root hairs, only root
hairs absorb "food", roots go dormant in winter as the top does, roots have
buds, and probably many more! Is it any wonder trees have many problems!

A list of "elements" which I am talking about, can be found here in the
table:

Just to clearly define what I mean when I say element.
http://www.webelements.com/
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush

In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

To whom is this missive addressed John?

These increase nutrient cycling, as most of
the nutrients the plant needs are already in the soil, just not in an
available form.

I think you are referring to elements. many elements are provided in
composting wood.

Not really, elements make up compounds, like nitrate NO3 or ammonia
which can be absorbed by the plants. N2 is of no interest to a plant and
O2 is a plant waste product.

Especially the element calcium. In fact most parts shed
by the tree provide some elements. One part like the phellem does not
provide a food source for the soil. That's why I am against using all
phellem for mulch.

Well cork does retain moisture, it provides a haven for bacteria and
fungi, and it does help break up heavy soils.

You are already on record that plants don't need food because they are
autotrophs. Is that still your position John. I truly hope you aren't
going into melt down here.

One thing is nurse logs.
Yes, John, a nurse log is a thing.

Nurse logs are water
reservoirs for trees during dryer times. They are like a big sponge. No
spray will replace this unique feature. Trees were designed in groups with
shedding woody and non-woody parts constantly recycling elements and
providing carbon based substances for a food source. You just cannot take
all of the benefits of the ecological stages of trees for trees and their
associates and replace it with a tea.

(Oh, Lord) In a situation where you have poor soil (for whatever
reason), the quickest fix would be compost tea because of the amount of
living matter that is introduced into the soil. Mulch will work but it
is slower acting.

Again I am not against the tea and
think it would be of value in participation of a proper mulching program.

I mean for example. many tree associates are fungi eaters. Some of the
fungi they eat are associated with nurse logs or decomposing wood chips.
Nurse logs are the substrate for the base of the food web the mycorrhizal
fungi. Fallen trees harbor a myriad of organisms, from bacteria and
actinomycetes to higher fungi. Of these, only some of the fungi might be
noticed by the causal observer as mushrooms or bracket fungi. These
structures, however, are merely the fruiting bodies produced by mold
colonies within the log. Many fungi fruit within the fallen tree, therefore
they are seen only when the tree is torn apart. Even when a fallen tree is
torn apart, only a fraction of the fungi present are noticed because the
fruiting bodies of most appear only for a small portion of the year. The
smaller organisms, not visible to the unaided eye, are still important
components of the system (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par 5). This
process may not be possible with just using a tea. This type of an
ecosystem exists with the help of the ecological stage of trees.

-----------
An airliner was flying into Seattle when its' instruments went out.
Dropping down through the clouds to get his bearings, the captain found
himself flying between skyscrapers. Opening his window, the captain
shouted at a man in one of the buildings,"Where an I?"

The man in the building shouted back, "you're in an airplane."

The captain immediately told the copilot to bank hard left and to put
the plane on a 20% glide. Shortly there after the runway lights came
into view and, the plane landed safely.

"How did you do that?", the copilot asked.

"Oh, it was easy", said the pilot. I asked the guy in the building where
I was and the answer he gave was completely correct and totally useless,
so I knew we were at the MicroSoft Tech Support building. Knowing were I
was made it easy.
-------------

John, what you have just said is absolutely true and totally useless. If
you have a sick tree are you going to treat it or wait for the geology
to improve? For a forest, I would treat the geology. For a tree, I would
treat the immediate soil.



You can find many of the benifits of wood for the system he
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...nce/index.html

Do you have a fact sheet or something on these teas?
They are just a Google away.

Are they a biodynamic prep.?
A few maybe but most aren't.


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.




When I say that nature will correct imbalances, I did not mean that
everything stops and dies in nature. I think that is a ridiculous
interpretation of what I was saying. What I mean is that in nature
when a disease or other imbalance (in this case we're talking pH)
occurs, nature (biology) will in time correct these problems in most
instances.

The point is do you have the time? Supportive interventions can be made.

You don't see people spraying herbicides and pesticides in
old growth forests do you? Or applying fertilizer? These ecosystems
were created self-sustaining by nature, without our chemical inputs.
This is what I'm talking about when I suggest using biology.

Logic is only as good as its' premise. Some of your premises seem to be
fairly far fetched.

You realize that you are making D. Staples "seem" plausible, don' you?
You appear to have a good heart, John, and I'm sure that you are good at
what you do. But to put a good theoretical handle on your views, take a
class in botany (+ biology) and, chemistry(101-102). That would be about
9 units a semester for a year.

Classes are the only way. Without a deadline, the reading material will
leave you comatose.

~Tad

PS: Please take the time to look at the link I provided. If you still
have questions, feel free to respond.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush

Now, if you want to talk elements, we need to talk electron orbitals,
each of which has a "probability" of being in a particular area at any
given time. For our purposes, I presume you will be prepared to talk
about the s, p, d, and f orbitals next time. P orbitals are particularly
important because they allow for double bonds and aromaticity in
cyclical compounds, like tannins.


80 + or - 10. I would rather discuss quarks and mesons. Then work our way
back to why it is illigal to grow commercial hemp in the USA to relieve the
forest from its hurting extracting procedures. Ben Franklin was a hemp
farmer, why can I not be one? What was really the problem with Ben
Franklin? He watched the lightning raise the hairs on the hemp kite string
as it traveled downward into the Earth, LeMay said Franklin couldn't resist
reaching out to touch the hemp and, as you'd expect, he got a slight shock.
It was not just any string that connected Ben Franklin to the clouds above
for his famous experiment, it was hemp string. George Washington as a hemp
farmer. The writer of the Declaration of Independence grew hemp. THE STORY
OF HEMP IN COLONIAL VIRGINIA, By Herndon. A Dissertation which includes
references to George Washington as a hemp farmer. Excellent history.
Ask yourself this question: How does George Washington get to grow hemp and
not the Curator? It gets to the core of the question, what happened in the
last 200 years that we lost such an important right, namely the control of
agricultural production. This prohibition must come to an end. What an
incredible embarrassment it would be to have to explain to George Washington
and Thomas Jefferson that they would have to pull up their hemp crops, that
would have been the Second American Revolution! Both men were high on hemp
as an important crop to replace and rotate with tobacco. It still is.

We really need to use our minds on something prodcutive. As far as the
table of elements. Its still not a table of nutrients.
Industrial hemp has thousands of uses, from paper to textiles to
biodegradable plastics to health food to fuel. It is one of the fastest
growing biomasses on the planet, and one of the earliest domesticated plants
known. It also runs parallel with the "Green Future" objectives that are
becoming increasingly popular. Hemp requires little to no pesticides,
replenishes soil with nutrients and nitrogen, controls erosion of the
topsoil, and converts CO2 to oxygen very well, considering how fast it
grows. Furthermore, Hemp could be used to replace many potentially harmful
products, such as tree paper (the process of which uses bleaches and other
toxic chemicals, apart from contributing to deforestation), cosmetics (which
often contain synthetic oils that can clog pores and provide little
nutritional content for the skin), plastics (which are petroleum based and
cannot decompose), and more. Hemp was used extensively by the United States
during WWII. Uniforms, canvas, and rope were among the main textiles created
from the hemp plant at this time. Much of the hemp used was planted in the
Midwest and Kentucky. Historically, hemp production made up a significant
portion of Kentucky's economy and many slave plantations located there
focused on producing hemp.[25]



In ref. to latter: A nutrient is a substance used in an organism's
metabolism which must be taken in from the environment. Non-autotrophic
organisms typically acquire nutrients by the ingestion of foods. Methods for
nutrient intake vary, with animals and protists having an internal digestive
system, while plants digest nutrients externally and then ingested.

Again

Myths: Roots regenerate new roots, roots absorb nutrients, roots are all
shallow, roots are the most important part of a plant, roots have pith,
roots have heartwood, roots and stems are the same, roots have a green
cortex, roots have associations called mycorrhizae, roots absorb food,
roots
are all below ground, roots on infant trees are the same as mature roots,
roots have flairs called root flairs, roots cannot live under pavements,
all
roots absorb from the soil, over-pruning does not injure roots, roots do
not
compartmentalize infections, roots are independent of the tops, you can
inoculate roots with mycorrhizae, root tips are called root hairs, only
root
hairs absorb "food", roots go dormant in winter as the top does, roots
have
buds, and probably many more! Is it any wonder trees have many problems!


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

..

You are already on record that plants don't need food because they are
autotrophs. Is that still your position John. I truly hope you aren't
going into melt down here.


If we could feed trees, we would take away the major job of the sun! People
who say "plant food" are ignorant about photosynthesis.

I never said the trees do not require food. However they are autotrophs and
thus manufacture their own food. They do require at least 17 know essential
elements. Providing some of these elements and stimulating micros that
alter these chemicals absorbable at urban trees is our duty as MODERN
ARBORIST. I.e., if you are really a MODERN ARBORIST. First someone needs
to do studies on optimum fertility levels for trees and we need to stop
fertilizing them as if they were corn. maybe corn use a tea.

If you believe that you can feed a plant, put the "food" on and then put the
plant in the dark. See what happens. If you could feed plants, there would
be no need for photosynthesis, or the light energy of the sun. Ridiculous!
Stupid! Why do we keep using the sloppy term? Because everybody does it.
More ridiculous! More Stupid! I, and many other people, refuse to be part of
the everybody. Fertilizers are not plant food in the sense of having an
energy source.

Animals have food tubes. Upper appendages put the food in the tube (arms). A
brain tells them where to find the food. Lower appendages take the animal to
the food. Animals move to get their food. Food is processed in the animal's
food tube.

Foods are substances that contain an energy source mostly, and may contain
some elements, and other substances. The main part of food is the energy
source. There are junk foods, fatty foods, and healthy foods. There are many
diet books telling you about healthy foods. Animals can absorb an energy
source. Plants cannot absorb an energy source. fertilizers are not plant
foods. Fertilizers provide elements essential for growth of plants. The
elements are part of salts, usually, that ionize in water. Ions are charged
particles; anions, negative, and cations, positive. Plants "make"
carbohydrates by trapping the light energy of the sun in a process called
photosynthesis. Sad that so many people who work with plants do not know
this. They call fertilizers plant food. very sad.

Reclaim our freedom and legalize commercial hemp!

Myths - wood is dead. Heartrot explains decay. Flush cuts are correct.
Wound dressings stop rot. Nature is balanced. Fertilizer is food. Wetwood is
bad. Planting deeply is good. Rot is a major cause of failure. Water causes
decay. Insects and diseases are the major causes of tree problems. There are
at least a hundred more.


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

Billy

I think I will try to go study elements

http://www.shigoandtrees.com/Worksho...0/Default.aspx


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

What is an element? Chemically, an element is a pure substance composed of
atoms that all have the same number of protons in the nucleus. That number
is the "atomic number" and specifies the element's position in the periodic
table. The atomic nucleus also contains neutrons. For each element, the
sum of the numbers of protons and neutrons is the approximate atomic weight.
Depending on the definition, 17 out of the 94 naturally occurring elements
are generally considered essential for the growth of plants.


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

While kicking around the idea of quarks and their odd flavors may be
interesting, it seems a bit (a whole freakin' lot actually) tangential
to the discussion of plant nutrients and healthy garden soils. Whereas
ionic bonding transports ammonia and nitrates to the root hairs, the
actual transport across the cell membrane requires the making and
breaking of covalent bonds by the appropriate proteins. So where do
quarks come into the conversation? NOWHERE!!!

Or are you asserting that your obfuscation is analogous to my MS Tech
Support simile?

In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

Now, if you want to talk elements, we need to talk electron orbitals,
each of which has a "probability" of being in a particular area at any
given time. For our purposes, I presume you will be prepared to talk
about the s, p, d, and f orbitals next time. P orbitals are particularly
important because they allow for double bonds and aromaticity in
cyclical compounds, like tannins.


80 + or - 10. I would rather discuss quarks and mesons. Then work our way
back to why it is illigal to grow commercial hemp in the USA to relieve the
forest from its hurting extracting procedures. Ben Franklin was a hemp
farmer, why can I not be one? What was really the problem with Ben
Franklin? He watched the lightning raise the hairs on the hemp kite string
as it traveled downward into the Earth, LeMay said Franklin couldn't resist
reaching out to touch the hemp and, as you'd expect, he got a slight shock.
It was not just any string that connected Ben Franklin to the clouds above
for his famous experiment, it was hemp string. George Washington as a hemp
farmer. The writer of the Declaration of Independence grew hemp. THE STORY
OF HEMP IN COLONIAL VIRGINIA, By Herndon. A Dissertation which includes
references to George Washington as a hemp farmer. Excellent history.
Ask yourself this question: How does George Washington get to grow hemp and
not the Curator? It gets to the core of the question, what happened in the
last 200 years that we lost such an important right, namely the control of
agricultural production. This prohibition must come to an end. What an
incredible embarrassment it would be to have to explain to George Washington
and Thomas Jefferson that they would have to pull up their hemp crops, that
would have been the Second American Revolution! Both men were high on hemp
as an important crop to replace and rotate with tobacco. It still is.

We really need to use our minds on something prodcutive. As far as the
table of elements. Its still not a table of nutrients.
Industrial hemp has thousands of uses, from paper to textiles to
biodegradable plastics to health food to fuel. It is one of the fastest
growing biomasses on the planet, and one of the earliest domesticated plants
known. It also runs parallel with the "Green Future" objectives that are
becoming increasingly popular. Hemp requires little to no pesticides,
replenishes soil with nutrients and nitrogen, controls erosion of the
topsoil, and converts CO2 to oxygen very well, considering how fast it
grows. Furthermore, Hemp could be used to replace many potentially harmful
products, such as tree paper (the process of which uses bleaches and other
toxic chemicals, apart from contributing to deforestation), cosmetics (which
often contain synthetic oils that can clog pores and provide little
nutritional content for the skin), plastics (which are petroleum based and
cannot decompose), and more. Hemp was used extensively by the United States
during WWII. Uniforms, canvas, and rope were among the main textiles created
from the hemp plant at this time. Much of the hemp used was planted in the
Midwest and Kentucky. Historically, hemp production made up a significant
portion of Kentucky's economy and many slave plantations located there
focused on producing hemp.[25]

I'll catch you at 4:20 but for now can we please stay on subject?


In ref. to latter: A nutrient is a substance used in an organism's
metabolism which must be taken in from the environment. Non-autotrophic
organisms typically acquire nutrients by the ingestion of foods. Methods for
nutrient intake vary, with animals and protists having an internal digestive
system, while plants digest nutrients externally and then ingested.

What is CO2? What is NO3, or NH3? Are these nutrients? Are they
digested externally? Yes, they are nutrients, and no, they aren't
metabolized externally.


Again

Myths: Roots regenerate new roots, roots absorb nutrients, roots are all
shallow, roots are the most important part of a plant, roots have pith,
roots have heartwood, roots and stems are the same, roots have a green
cortex, roots have associations called mycorrhizae, roots absorb food,
roots
are all below ground, roots on infant trees are the same as mature roots,
roots have flairs called root flairs, roots cannot live under pavements,
all
roots absorb from the soil, over-pruning does not injure roots, roots do
not
compartmentalize infections, roots are independent of the tops, you can
inoculate roots with mycorrhizae, root tips are called root hairs, only
root
hairs absorb "food", roots go dormant in winter as the top does, roots
have
buds, and probably many more! Is it any wonder trees have many problems!

Everything above is correctly identified as myths and totally useless to
someone who wants to adjust their soil to maximize plant health.

Never mind. I can see that the Borg have landed and conversation is
futile.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush

In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

What is an element? Chemically, an element is a pure substance composed of
atoms that all have the same number of protons in the nucleus. That number
is the "atomic number" and specifies the element's position in the periodic
table. The atomic nucleus also contains neutrons. For each element, the
sum of the numbers of protons and neutrons is the approximate atomic weight.
Depending on the definition, 17 out of the 94 naturally occurring elements
are generally considered essential for the growth of plants.

Cool. And how much CO2 and H2O does it take to make an ounce of glucose?
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush

John,

First off, I want to state that you've so managed to convolute this
discussion that I no longer have any idea what you are talking about.
How did the discussion turn to industrial hemp?

Secondly, your so-called "myths" is entirely inaccuratein my opinion.
Some of the statements are untrue, but others are not, that is unless
you have some backhanded way of explaining them. Here's a couple I've
listed below that I'd love to have your explanations on:

"So-Called Myths: roots absorb nutrients, roots are the most important
part of a plant, roots have associations called mycorrhizae, you can
inoculate roots with mycorrhizae, "


Did you look at my link to the Soil Food Web website? Here's another
one for you. www.simplici-tea.com

or you can join the Yahoo Group that is moderated by Jeff Lowenfels
that discusses Compost Tea technology.

Just for the record, I never made this statement:
"You just cannot take all of the benefits of the ecological stages of
trees for trees and their
associates and replace it with a tea."

My recommendation would be to use a good compost and compost tea in
conjunction with each other. Of course, this may change depending on
what type of soil or environmental conditions we're dealing with.

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

What is an element? Chemically, an element is a pure substance composed
of
atoms that all have the same number of protons in the nucleus. That
number
is the "atomic number" and specifies the element's position in the
periodic
table. The atomic nucleus also contains neutrons. For each element, the
sum of the numbers of protons and neutrons is the approximate atomic
weight.
Depending on the definition, 17 out of the 94 naturally occurring
elements
are generally considered essential for the growth of plants.

Cool. And how much CO2 and H2O does it take to make an ounce of glucose?
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush


I do not have the answer. You seem to know much more than me about
chemistry.

could you define two things for me please?

nutrient -

element -

Thanks


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

What is an element? Chemically, an element is a pure substance composed
of
atoms that all have the same number of protons in the nucleus. That
number
is the "atomic number" and specifies the element's position in the
periodic
table. The atomic nucleus also contains neutrons. For each element, the
sum of the numbers of protons and neutrons is the approximate atomic
weight.
Depending on the definition, 17 out of the 94 naturally occurring
elements
are generally considered essential for the growth of plants.

Cool. And how much CO2 and H2O does it take to make an ounce of glucose?
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush


I do not have the answer. You seem to know much more than me about
chemistry.

could you define two things for me please?

nutrient -
nutrient
noun
a substance that provides nourishment essential for growth and the
maintenance of life : fish is a source of many important nutrients,
including protein, vitamins, and minerals.
ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: from Latin nutrient- "nourishing", from the
verb nutrire.


element n.
1. A fundamental, essential, or irreducible constituent of a composite
entity.
2. elements. The basic assumptions or principles of a subject.
3. Mathematics. a. A member of a set. b. A point, line, or plane. c. A
part of a geometric configuration, such as an angle in a triangle. d.
The generatrix of a geometric figure. e. Any of the terms in the
rectangular array of terms that constitute a matrix or determinant.
4. Chemistry & Physics. A substance composed of atoms having an
identical number of protons in each nucleus. Elements cannot be reduced
to simpler substances by normal chemical means.
5. One of four substances, earth, air, fire, or water, formerly regarded
as a fundamental constituent of the universe.
6. Electricity. The resistance wire in an electrical appliance such as a
heater or an oven.
7. elements. The forces that constitute the weather, especially severe
or inclement weather: outside paint that had been damaged by the
elements.
8. An environment naturally suited to or associated with an individual:
He is in his element when traveling. The business world is her element.
9. A distinct group within a larger community: the dissident element on
campus.
10. elements. The bread and wine of the Eucharist. [Middle English, from
Old French, from Latin elementum.]

SYNONYMS: element, component, constituent, factor, ingredient. The
central meaning shared by these nouns is one of the individual parts of
which a composite entity is made up: the grammatical elements of a
sentence; jealousy, a component of his character; melody and harmony,
two of the constituents of a musical composition; ambition as a key
factor in her success; humor, an effective ingredient of a speech.



Thanks

--
Bush Behind Bars

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

"Billy" wrote in message
...
While kicking around the idea of quarks and their odd flavors may be
interesting, it seems a bit (a whole freakin' lot actually) tangential
to the discussion of plant nutrients and healthy garden soils.

Oh really? maybe we can kick this around. First my concern for the health
of soils is the supply of cellulose. Cellulose provides glucose for many
organisms especially in the soil or more correctly, of the soil. One
problem with most definitions of soil is they forget the enormous amount of
living organisms that make up "HEALTHY" soil.

e.g., just one def. off the internet.

"Soil is the unconsolidated mineral or organic material on the immediate
surface of the earth and serves as a natural medium for the growth of land
plants."

Here is another def.

"Dirt, or soil, is made from rocks that break apart or wear away over many
years. This is referred to as weathering. It may take 100 to 1000 years
for 1 cm of soil to form through weathering. Soil also contains air, water,
and humus, the decayed remains of dead animals and plants. Soil can
actually be separated into 5 main parts: humus, clay, silt, sand, and
gravel." hmmmm!


I prefer this def. Soil is a substance made up of sands, silts, clays,
decaying organic matter, air, water and an "enormous number of living
organisms". Is it alive or dead? Yes, is the answer. We have no word for
a substance that is both living and dead - wood, soil.

Now healthy soil concerns must address an enormous number of living
organisms. Cellulose provides food for many.

OK, back to quarks. Cellulose is atoms of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen.
Atoms are protons and electrons. Protons and electrons are quarks and
leptons. Not that I completely understand it but quarks do play a role in
soil health.

Something interesting I was studying when I found this out.

Did you know in a sense trees are music? Music is highly ordered waves and
vibrations. Trees are wood, mostly. Wood is cellulose, mostly. Cellulose
is atoms of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. Atoms are protons and electrons.
Protons and electrons are quarks and leptons. Quarks and leptons are highly
ordered waves and vibrations. Wait a minute!! Music is also highly ordered
waves and vibrations!! Think about it.


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"symplastless" wrote:

What is an element? Chemically, an element is a pure substance
composed
of
atoms that all have the same number of protons in the nucleus. That
number
is the "atomic number" and specifies the element's position in the
periodic
table. The atomic nucleus also contains neutrons. For each element,
the
sum of the numbers of protons and neutrons is the approximate atomic
weight.
Depending on the definition, 17 out of the 94 naturally occurring
elements
are generally considered essential for the growth of plants.

Cool. And how much CO2 and H2O does it take to make an ounce of
glucose?
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars
http://www.antiwar.com/eland/index.php?articleid=8282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...George_W._Bush


I do not have the answer. You seem to know much more than me about
chemistry.

could you define two things for me please?

nutrient -
nutrient
noun
a substance that provides nourishment essential for growth and the
maintenance of life : fish is a source of many important nutrients,
including protein, vitamins, and minerals.
ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: from Latin nutrient- "nourishing", from the
verb nutrire.

kind of confusing for someone like me trying to learn



element n.
1. A fundamental, essential, or irreducible constituent of a composite
entity.
2. elements. The basic assumptions or principles of a subject.
3. Mathematics. a. A member of a set. b. A point, line, or plane. c. A
part of a geometric configuration, such as an angle in a triangle. d.
The generatrix of a geometric figure. e. Any of the terms in the
rectangular array of terms that constitute a matrix or determinant.
4. Chemistry & Physics. A substance composed of atoms having an
identical number of protons in each nucleus. Elements cannot be reduced
to simpler substances by normal chemical means.
5. One of four substances, earth, air, fire, or water, formerly regarded
as a fundamental constituent of the universe.
6. Electricity. The resistance wire in an electrical appliance such as a
heater or an oven.
7. elements. The forces that constitute the weather, especially severe
or inclement weather: outside paint that had been damaged by the
elements.
8. An environment naturally suited to or associated with an individual:
He is in his element when traveling. The business world is her element.
9. A distinct group within a larger community: the dissident element on
campus.
10. elements. The bread and wine of the Eucharist. [Middle English, from
Old French, from Latin elementum.]

I was talking about the definition of element pertaining to the table of
elements. You knew that. You are adding much confusion where there not
need be.


SYNONYMS: element, component, constituent, factor, ingredient. The
central meaning shared by these nouns is one of the individual parts of
which a composite entity is made up: the grammatical elements of a
sentence; jealousy, a component of his character; melody and harmony,
two of the constituents of a musical composition; ambition as a key
factor in her success; humor, an effective ingredient of a speech.


Thats a little confusing.

Anyway - grow hemp like Ben Franklin did. We really need to get it together
to leave more cellulose, quarks, in the once fertile forest of the USA..
I.e., for the health of the soil and its associates.


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.




Thanks

--
Bush Behind Bars

Sure, for not allowing people to farm hemp like our forefathers.

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/