So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
from - Texas Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.

As the story goes with respect to the plight of the Koala, humans are
breaking too many connections too fast. As a result many living things are
leaving this earth. If this trend continues, only microscopic living things
will remain, and the circle of life will go back to beginning. Dr. Alex L.
Shigo. The

The plight of this partially blind koala [see picture he #431
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...itis/fire.html ] is due to
ignorance of tree basics. Koalas eat the leaves of only about six species
of Eucalyptus. Man loved the koala's so much, he built his homes close to
the Eucalyptus Groves because he wanted to be close to them. But, the
Eucalyptus Groves go up very fast and burn very hot. So, out of the
ignorance of tree biology, man dug fire trenches. In doing so, the trees
were injured below ground (woody and non-woody roots - for starters). When
trees are threatened or injured - they do something - they respond. Because
of the fire ditches to reduce the threat of fire and over development, most
of the leaves on the declining trees in the area tanned. Tanning is a
chemical process of combining phenol-based substances with proteins, and the
disruption of hydrogen bonds leaves the protein indigestible. In one sense
the hydrogen bonds, are held open by toothpicks. The enzymes of the koala
would enter to digest the leaves. Tanning is like, removing the toothpicks.
The animals ate and ate, but received little nutrition. Lots of moisture,
wet spot developed. A spirochete similar to syphilis entered and was passed
along by mating. Many koalas died. The good news is that development in the
area was not only stopped, but many developed areas will be returned to
their original state.

With that said, I think the treatment to once fertile forest, yes even in
Texas, such as Don Staples refers to as "SALVAGE AND RESTORATION" per his
website, is deforestation. You cannot plant a forest. Yes, I claim he is a
crook, to sell people removing everything remaining is restoration by means
of salvaging and leads to some sort of improvement of health of trees as
well as associates. http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

I wondered what function wood would play in PROTECTING A FOREST containing
any species of trees. So I read some publications that were peer-reviewed
in refereed journals. The US FOREST SERVICE has a awesome library system.
The researchers are some of the finest in the world. So I decided to
document these findings. I prophesize that negative results will happen if
Don's salvaging plans are carried out.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...tis/index.html I tried to
give page, paragraph and so forth where quotes can be found.

Please think. There is no reason why you cannot think. BTW, all parts of a
tree are born alive and trees only absorb water when the roots are growing.
This is the beginning of a response to a year of negative criticism from Don
Staples and company. There has been a long time battle between Modern
Arboriculture and Old Arboriculture in Texas.

--
Do to the overwhelming amount a negative criticism by a few individuals on
this list, I am "only" willing to get into debate by way of email. I have a
background in tree biology, my negative critics do not. I am willing to
answer any questions you may have. If I do not have the answer I know where
to get it, based on a thorough understanding of tree biology. Contact me at
A good foundation for understanding trees,
associates and treatments, can be found he www.shigoandtrees.com Most
topics, correct planting, mulching, pruning and fertilization can be found
at www.treedictionary.com

Happy gardening!

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
from - Texas Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.


Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Yard man
/home.ccil.org/~treedan
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
that will give them understanding.



Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark beetles
had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what ever use you
would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the beetles? Just
let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring the right of a land
owner to restore his land to production, other than brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use others
work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are educated in
forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on "dissection", Shigo
meters, and the rest of which you have not the slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.

"D. Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
from - Texas Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.


Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Yard man
/home.ccil.org/~treedan
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
that will give them understanding.



Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
beetles had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what
ever use you would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the
beetles? Just let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring
the right of a land owner to restore his land to production, other than
brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use
others work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are
educated in forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on
"dissection", Shigo meters, and the rest of which you have not the
slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.

Tree Farming and Related Problems
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

First thing you will have to do is define what a forest is, then define what
a consulting forester is. Then you will have to explain with data backup,
just how removing all the wood from a once fertile forest increases forest
health.

CHOW
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
from - Texas Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.

As the story goes with respect to the plight of the Koala, humans are
breaking too many connections too fast. As a result many living things
are leaving this earth. If this trend continues, only microscopic living
things will remain, and the circle of life will go back to beginning. Dr.
Alex L. Shigo. The

The plight of this partially blind koala [see picture he #431
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...itis/fire.html ] is due
to ignorance of tree basics. Koalas eat the leaves of only about six
species of Eucalyptus. Man loved the koala's so much, he built his homes
close to the Eucalyptus Groves because he wanted to be close to them.
But, the Eucalyptus Groves go up very fast and burn very hot. So, out of
the ignorance of tree biology, man dug fire trenches. In doing so, the
trees were injured below ground (woody and non-woody roots - for
starters). When trees are threatened or injured - they do something -
they respond. Because of the fire ditches to reduce the threat of fire
and over development, most of the leaves on the declining trees in the
area tanned. Tanning is a chemical process of combining phenol-based
substances with proteins, and the disruption of hydrogen bonds leaves the
protein indigestible. In one sense the hydrogen bonds, are held open by
toothpicks. The enzymes of the koala would enter to digest the leaves.
Tanning is like, removing the toothpicks. The animals ate and ate, but
received little nutrition. Lots of moisture, wet spot developed. A
spirochete similar to syphilis entered and was passed along by mating.
Many koalas died. The good news is that development in the area was not
only stopped, but many developed areas will be returned to their original
state.

With that said, I think the treatment to once fertile forest, yes even in
Texas, such as Don Staples refers to as "SALVAGE AND RESTORATION" per his
website, is deforestation. You cannot plant a forest. Yes, I claim he is
a crook, to sell people removing everything remaining is restoration by
means of salvaging and leads to some sort of improvement of health of
trees as well as associates.
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

I wondered what function wood would play in PROTECTING A FOREST containing
any species of trees. So I read some publications that were peer-reviewed
in refereed journals. The US FOREST SERVICE has a awesome library system.
The researchers are some of the finest in the world. So I decided to
document these findings. I prophesize that negative results will happen
if Don's salvaging plans are carried out.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...tis/index.html I tried
to give page, paragraph and so forth where quotes can be found.

Please think. There is no reason why you cannot think. BTW, all parts of
a tree are born alive and trees only absorb water when the roots are
growing. This is the beginning of a response to a year of negative
criticism from Don Staples and company. There has been a long time battle
between Modern Arboriculture and Old Arboriculture in Texas.

--
Do to the overwhelming amount a negative criticism by a few individuals on
this list, I am "only" willing to get into debate by way of email. I have
a background in tree biology, my negative critics do not. I am willing to
answer any questions you may have. If I do not have the answer I know
where to get it, based on a thorough understanding of tree biology.
Contact me at A good foundation for
understanding trees, associates and treatments, can be found he
www.shigoandtrees.com Most topics, correct planting, mulching, pruning
and fertilization can be found at www.treedictionary.com

Happy gardening!

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
that will give them understanding.

"D. Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...

Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
beetles had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what
ever use you would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the
beetles? Just let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring
the right of a land owner to restore his land to production, other than
brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use
others work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are
educated in forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on
"dissection", Shigo meters, and the rest of which you have not the
slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.
Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

Lets use a tornado as an disturbance and not bark beetles.
1 of 16
Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas, which I would assume is a forestry industry standard.
"Salvage and restoration. There comes a time when nature just does not
cooperate with the best of management efforts. At that time you may have to
salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different sales effort
for forest products. Usually, the sales material is damaged, dead, or dying.
Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and incomes low. But, best
to move the material, get it out of the way for future work. Take what
income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for planting the site."

I except the definition but I disagree that you can plant a forest and the
fact that you may have to remove what is left which in this case would be
the old growth conditions (Tionesta)



What tornados do not do, verses doing the following after a tornado. In
other words what would removing wood from a tornado swath achieve - I.e.,
not limited too but including -



The fallen wood will become symplastless, if not already and in contrast, a
symplastless tree or log includes a considerable number of living cells, as
much 35% of the biomass may be live fungal cells (Franklin, Shugart and
Harmon, 1987, pg [Removing this unique feature.]



It's is documented that a large symplastless tree is not a wasted resource;
indeed, it continues to function as an important part of a terrestrial or
water system, either while remaining on the site at which it once grew, or
by becoming a structural part of an aquatic or marine habitat. Our aim is to
help anyone interested in perpetual forest productivity to understand the
importance of large, symplastless woody debris. (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and
Franklin, 1988, pg 1par5).

[This unique feature will be removed.]



Fallen trees harbor a myriad of organisms, from bacteria and actinomycetes
to higher fungi. Of these, only some of the fungi might be noticed by the
causal observer as mushrooms or bracket fungi. These structures, however,
are merely the fruiting bodies produced by mold colonies within the log.
Many fungi fruit within the fallen tree, so they are seen only when the tree
is torn apart. Even when a fallen tree is torn apart, only a fraction of the
fungi present are noticed because the fruiting bodies of most appear only
for a small portion of the year. The smaller organisms, not visible to the
unaided eye, are still important components of the system (Maser and Trappe,
1984, pg16-par 5). [This unique feature will be removed]



The flow of plant and animal populations, air, water, and essential elements
between a fallen tree and its surroundings increases as decomposition
continues (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 12-par1). [This unique feature will
be removed]



Fallen trees offer multitudes of both external and internal habitats that
change and yet persist through the decades. One needs an understanding of
the synergistic affects of constant small changes within a persistent large
structure to appreciate the dynamics of a fallen tree and its function in an
ecosystem (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 17-par 1). [This unique feature will
be removed]



The so called symplastless, still standing trees, yet damaged, still
continues to serve several natural functions important to many groups of
organisms of the once fertile forest or tree system. ). [This unique
feature will be removed]



Eventually the tree falls: the wood is in contact with the soil, again
providing another unique ecological situation. Some species such as American
chestnut would have served ecological system survival duties for 50 years or
more if they were not removed (SHIGO, 1969).



As fallen trees progress from decay class I to class II, the scavengers are
replaced by competitors with the enzyme systems needed to decompose the more
complex compounds in wood. The fungi involved in this activity are often
mutually antagonistic, so that a given part of the tree may be occupied by
only one fungus that excludes others by physical or chemical means (Maser
and Trappe, 1984, pg27-par4). (We call this altered area a niche - See
pg70 Modern Arboriculture)(See niche in our www.treedictionary.com -
Dictionary) [This unique feature will be removed]



Note: Bacteria are very small. They do big things (Shigo, 1999, #216 pg34)



Free-living bacteria in woody residues and soil wood fix 30-60% of the
nitrogen in the forest soil. In addition, 20% of soil nitrogen is stored in
these components (Harvey et al. 1987). Harmon et al. (1986) reported that
CWD accounted for as much as 45% of aboveground stores of organic matter.
Symplastless wood in terrestrial ecosystems is a primary location for fungal
colonization and often acts as refugia for mycorrhizal fungi during
ecosystem disturbance (Triska and Cromack 1979; Harmon et al. 1986; Caza
1993) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).

[This unique feature will be removed]



Franklin, et. al. (1987) pg 551 states - With the large array of organisms
present in the decaying log, it may be more "alive" than a living bole. In
addition to being the habitat of decomposer organisms, symplastless trees
provide critical habitat for sheltering and feeding a variety of animal
species. [This unique feature will be removed]



Symplastless and symplast containing trees are linked together in the living
machinery of a forest (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg25par1).
[This unique feature will be removed]



References:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...eferences.html


end of 1 of 16


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"D. Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...
Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
beetles had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what
ever use you would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the
beetles? Just let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring
the right of a land owner to restore his land to production, other than
brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use
others work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are
educated in forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on
"dissection", Shigo meters, and the rest of which you have not the
slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.

Tornado's And Salvaging 2 of 16

Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas (Don Staples), which I would assume is a forestry industry
standard. "Salvage and restoration. There comes a time when nature just
does not cooperate with the best of management efforts. At that time you may
have to salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different
sales effort for forest products. Usually, the sales material is damaged,
dead, or dying. Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and
incomes low. But, best to move the material, get it out of the way for
future work. Take what income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for
planting the site."

I accept the definition, however, I disagree that you can plant a forest as
well as the statement that you may have to remove what is left, which in
this case would be the old growth conditions (Tionesta). I use the Tionesta
Scenic Area in the Allegheny National Forest as a control. It had a tornado
go through in around 1986 and most recently had a blow down. As far as I
know nothing has been removed and all ecological stages of trees exist. I
did soil sampling in that area in the rhizoplane.



What tornados do not do, verses doing the following after a tornado. In
other words what would removing wood from a tornado swath achieve - I.e.,
not limited too but including -



I believe, Salvaging would alter the carbon to nitrogen ratio over time.
Something to keep in mind - Reports from some countries indicate an
abundance of soluble nitrogen compounds in runoff water and even in ground
water. This is a strong indication that the carbon-nitrogen ratio has been
disrupted in the soil. It is well established from studies of the
physiology of fungal parasitism that the degree of parasitism is often
determined by the carbon-nitrogen ratio. It is probably similar for other
organisms (Shigo, 1996).



Salvaging would be removing a storehouse for moisture, which would have
provided moisture for plants and animals during dry times such as summer
drought, as it may be called (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and Graham,
1991).



Salvaging would be removing present and future decayed logs, which act like
a sponge to absorb water and retain much of the water throughout the
following growing season. This water would be a survival feature during
drought for members of the system (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and
Graham, 1991).



Too often "drought", what ever they mean, is used by the USFS to describe
the cause of mortality to trees, most often in areas that have been Salvaged
at one time or another. I would think that the tornado spot has great
potential for moisture retention as those 400 increment old fallen hemlock
and white pine, which are heartwood forming trees, become like a sponge.
These nurse logs may be around for a long time. Does anybody guess how long
a nurse log, from a 400 increment old Eastern Hemlock tree, would function
let's say with soil contact. After tornado a flush of birch and cherry
quickly grew and shaded the soil and nurse logs. I must return again. Last
time we had to crawl on hands and knees to get in through the thickets of
growth. A unique place to be - for sure. My son and I were in there doing
pedology work. Has anyone on this list ever crawled back in to Tionesta?

Just for fun!

http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/temp2/



Can someone offer suggestions on benefits of Salvaging and area with respect
for the health of the system?



Salvaging this area would be removing materials, that when soil contact was
made, would have played key roles with the cation exchange capacity, water -
holding capacity, bulk density, essential element and nutrient budgets and
erosion potential (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and Graham, 1991).



Salvaging this area would be removing woody material that has been
identified as playing several important roles in the functioning of the
region's forests. In southwest Oregon, brown-cubical-rotted CWD acts as a
perched water reservoir, the spongy decayed wood being able to hold over
twice its own weight in water. This material thus would have otherwise been
a major source of moisture for fungi and roots well into the summer drought
that characterizes the region (Amaranthus, Trappe and Bednar, 1994). The
same has been seen in the Allegheny Mountains in the Cook State Park
Forest - Protected area, i.e., protected from Salvaging. Animals also
utilize stored water.



Salvaging this area would stop the processes, which would take place between
a fallen tree and its surroundings, which would have increased, as
decomposition would have continued. E.g., the flow of plant and animal
populations, air, water, and essential elements. (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg 12). Salvaging kills this system processes by means of disruption and
depletion causing dysfunction.



Salvaging this area would remove and reduce the forming of Large Stumps such
as in old-growth trees, which are a finite resource, and their loss from the
forest affects both soil shear strength and watershed hydrology (Maser,
Tarrant, Trappe, and Franklin, 1988, pg44-fig2.6).



Salvaging this area would remove CWD, and the associated epiphytic
bryophytes, which act as both essential element and moisture buffers for the
ecosystems (FEMAT 1993). This buffering would allow the slow release of
water and essential elements to surrounding plants. In mature and old
growth coastal forests, a large proportion of western hemlock and Sitka
spruce seedlings germinate and grow on CWD substrates (Harmon and Franklin
1989; G. Davis, pers. comm., 1994).



Salvaging this area would remove CWD, which would affect temperature as well
as moisture, which would have had the capacity to benefit certain beneficial
fungi (Amaranthus, Trappe and Bednar, 1994).



Salvaging this area would remove large, fallen trees or trees, in various
stages of decay. Salvaging is removing parent material, which would
contribute much-needed diversity to terrestrial and aquatic habitats in
forests. When most biological activity in soil is limited by low moisture
availability in summer, the material removed, fallen tree-soil interface,
would have offered a relatively cool, moist habitat for animals and a
substrate for microbial and root activity. Intensified utilization and
management can deprive future forests of large, fallen trees. The impact of
this loss on habitat diversity and on long-term forest productivity must be
determined because management needs sound information on which to base
resource management decisions (Maser and Trappe, 1984, Abstract-par2).



Salvaging this area would remove wood and its moisture-holding capacity thus
eliminating its internal processes and therefore the succession of plants
and animals. This affects the biotic community (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg4-par3).



Salvaging this are would remove some snags, which may have accumulated
moisture - carried essential elements and had a higher essential element
capital when it fell than does a tree with symplast (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg19-par2). Figure that one out!



Salvaging this area would stop colonization of decomposing wood by animals
which would have helped microbes to enter interior surfaces of the wood and
create additional openings for entry of water and essential elements; and
penetration of the wood by roots of trees, such as western hemlock (eastern
hemlock in Tionesta and white pine), which in turn facilitates entry by
mycorrhizal fungi (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg19-par4).



Salvaging this area would remove many readily available essential elements
that support opportunistic colonizers as well as the remaining essential
elements, which would be locked in the more decay resistant compounds of the
wood. Ultimately, organisms, with more sophisticated enzyme systems would,
have succeeded the rapidly growing opportunists. (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg37-par2)

- - - - - - - -
People that like to use Webster -

Salvage -

property or goods saved from damage or destruction

save from ruin, destruction, or harm

the act of saving goods or property that were in danger of damage or
destruction

- - - - - - - -

Salvaging this area would remove fallen tress or in some cases, future
fallen trees that when oriented along the contour of a slope, the upslope
side would be filled with humus and inorganic material which would have
allowed invertebrates and small vertebrates to tunnel alongside. The down
slope side would have provided protective cover for larger vertebrates.
When under a closed canopy, such trees would have also been saturated with
water and act as a reservoir during the dry part of the year (Maser,
Tarrant, Trappe, and Franklin, 1988, pg45-par3). Exactly the environment in
the swath at Tionesta.



Salvaging this area of so called rotten wood or so called rotten wood to be
would be removing something critical as substrate for ectomycorrhizal
formation. E.g., in one forest which contained a coniferous stand of trees
(Eastern Hemlock and White Pine are coniferous), over 95 percent of all
active mycorrhizae were in organic matter of which 21 percent were in
decayed wood. In another study in the northern Rocky Mountains, decayed
wood in soil was important. In moist, mesic, and arid habitat types (Harvey
et al. 1979), it was the most frequent substrate for active ectomycorrhizae
on the dry site, probably because of high moisture levels in the wood.
Mycorrhizal fungi can colonize logs, presumably using them as sources of
water, essential elements and nutrients. (Franklin, Cromack, Kermit, et al.
others, 1981).



Where we are. Endangered species. Salvaging this area would remove present
and future available moist microhabitats, primarily because of a lack of
large logs in intermediate and advanced stages of decay. Aubry et al.
(1988) found that some species of salamander were most abundant around CWD.
Dupuis (1993) concluded that salamander populations in Salvaged areas were
limited by available moist microhabitats, primarily because of a lack of
large logs in intermediate and advanced stages of decay (Voller and
Harrison, 1998).
Note: There are salamander species on T & E list.



Salvaging in both terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems, is removing present
and future symplastless wood, which would have functioned as a reservoir of
moisture, ameliorating drought conditions and providing a 'perched water
table' (Triska and Cromack 1979) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).



My conclusion about water: The capacity and ability, of CWD, to provide
water / moisture for fauna and flora during dryer times too often goes
unobserved, such as the case in this Painter Run Windthrow Salvage Project?
Coarse woody debris / ecoart nurse logs play a key role in providing the
requirements of water/moisture for survival of species of animals as well as
plants, be they listed as threatened and endangered or not. This function
it plays a key role during hot, drier times. To fully comprehend the
importance one must consider time. This function must be thoroughly
considered before making a decision to remove this function from the system
or not.



References:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...eferences.html



Case sensitive.



End of 2-16

"D. Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...


Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
beetles had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what
ever use you would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the
beetles? Just let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring
the right of a land owner to restore his land to production, other than
brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use
others work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are
educated in forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on
"dissection", Shigo meters, and the rest of which you have not the
slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.
Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

3 of 16

Tornado's And Salvaging

Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas, which I would assume is a forestry industry standard.

"Salvage and restoration. There comes a time when nature just does not
cooperate with the best of management efforts. At that time you may have to
salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different sales effort
for forest products. Usually, the sales material is damaged, dead, or
dying. Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and incomes low.
But, best to move the material, get it out of the way for future work. Take
what income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for planting the
site."

I accept the person's definition, however, I disagree that you can plant a
forest as well as the statement that you may have to remove what is left,
which in this case would be the old growth conditions (Tionesta). I use the
Tionesta Scenic Area in the Allegheny National Forest as a control. It had
a tornado go through in around 1986 and most recently had a blow down. As
far as I know nothing has been removed and all ecological stages of trees
exist. I did soil sampling in that area in the rhizoplane.

Elements, nutrients and food defined: Food is a substance that provides and
energy source, mostly. Nutrient is a substance that provides an energy
source, elements, and other substances essential for life, in types and
amounts that can provide a healthy life. Fertilizer is a substance that
provides elements, as salts mostly, or in bonded forms, that require
microorganisms to alter to forms that can be absorbed by plants. We cannot
and do not feed plants. We add essential elements at Keslick And Son.
Trees manufacture their own food and they do not absorb a nutrient or food
from the soil. We add essential elements.

If we could feed trees, we would take away the major job of the sun! People
who say "plant food" are ignorant about photosynthesis.

In other words: Foods are substances that contain an energy source mostly,
and may contain some elements, and other substances. The main part of food
is the energy source. There are junk foods, fatty foods, and healthy foods.
There are many diet books telling you about healthy foods. Animals can
absorb an energy source. Plants cannot absorb an energy source. fertilizers
are not plant foods. Fertilizers provide elements essential for growth of
plants. The elements are part of salts, usually, that ionize in water.
Ions are charged particles; anions, negative, and cations, positive. Plants
"make" carbohydrates by trapping the light energy of the sun in a process
called photosynthesis. Sad that so many people who work with plants do not
know this. They call fertilizers plant food. Very sad.



What tornados do not do, verses doing the following after a tornado. In
other words what would salvaging wood from a tornado swath achieve - I.e.,
not limited too but including -





Salvaging this area would alter the availability in the proper proportions
of the right "STEW" - Space, Temperature, Elements and Water over time. It
is hard for the energy of the sun to optimally make a tree into the most
efficient system on earth when the right amount of essential elements and
water has been removed.



Salvaging this area would remove required substrate for a decomposition
process where fallen trees release essential elements for microbial and
plant growth (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg37-par1).
Thus, salvaging would remove essential elements for microbial and plant
growth. Elements other than nitrogen such as calcium and magnesium also
accumulate in decomposing woody substrate. (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg
16-par2)



Salvaging this area would remove woody duff, which regardless of type or
size, takes considerably longer to decompose than needle and leaf duff does.
Needles, leaves, and small twigs decompose faster than larger woody material
and essential elements are thereby recycled faster in the forest floor.
About 140 years are required for essential elements to cycle in large,
fallen trees and more than 400 years for such trees to become incorporated
into the forest floor; they therefore would interact with the plants and
animals of the forest floor and soil over a long period of forest and stand
successional history (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988. pg37-par1).



Salvaging this area would remove the capacity of the system to accumulate
nitrogen in decaying, fallen trees as well as other significant essential
elements such as calcium and magnesium. Although nitrogen fixation in wood
is modest compared with that occurring in other substrates in forests, the
persistence of decaying wood allows small increments of nitrogen to accrue
over many decades (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 16).



Salvaging this area would remove wood that would further decompose which
would undergo changes in other chemical constituents and pH as well as
physical structure. Very old, decayed wood can even become somewhat
humified and leave long lasting substrate resistant to further decay (Maser
and Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par 4).



Salvaging this area would remove trees, which would have been decaying
trees. These trees would have comprised considerable accumulations of mass,
nutrients and elements. (Maser and Trappe, 1984,pg16-par1).



Note: Some of the largest accumulations occur in the unmanaged forest of the
Pacific Northwest. Coarse woody debris can range from 130 to 276 tons per
acre in stands from 100 to more than 1,000 years old. Although here we are
concerned with Douglas fir, neither decaying wood nor research data are
unique to forests of the Pacific Northwest. McFee and Stone (1966) Observed
that decaying wood persisted for more than 100 years in New York and others
pointed out that substantial accumulations of CWD in old-growth forest in
Poland. (Just as Tionesta) These observations evidence the long-term
continuity of decaying trees as structural components in forest (Maser and
Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par1).



Salvaging this area would remove present and future decaying logs on or
which would become a part of the forest floor, which would have been a
reservoir for nutrients as well as essential elements. (Page-Dumroese,
Harvey, Jurgensen and Graham, 1991).



Salvaging this area would remove what would naturally reduce erosion and
affect soil development, store nutrients and water, provide a source of
energy and essential element flow, serve as seedbeds, and provide habitat
for decomposers and heterotrophs (Harmon and Hua, 1991).



Salvaging this area would reduce the pool of stable nutrients. An important
feature of woody debris is that nutrients are released at slower rates than
from fine duff. This slow release allows essential elements to be retained
within the ecosystem until tree production recovers. Timber harvest and
salvage after disturbance reduces this pool of stable essential elements
(Harmon and Hua, 1991).



Salvaging this area would stop the decomposition of logs and other forms of
coarse woody debris which reduce erosion, affect soil development, store
essential elements and water, are a potentially large source of energy
(nutrients - food) and essential elements, serve as a seed bed for plants,
and form an important habitat for fungi and arthropods. Note: Despite
growing recognition that symplastless trees play major roles in ecosystem
function, many aspects of the specific processes involved are poorly
understood. Consider, for example, the importance of CWD in forest
essential element cycles. Aside from nitrogen fixation, few studies have
directly examined the processes responsible for the net changes in essential
element content of decaying wood. The actual proportion of tree nutrition
that is derived from CWD is not known (Kropp, 1982).



Thus, salvaging would increase soil erosion at the time and over time.



Salvaging this area would stop the processes, which would take place between
a fallen tree and its surroundings, which would have increased, as
decomposition would have continued. E.g., the flow of plant and animal
populations, air, water, and essential elements. (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg 12-par1). Salvaging kills this system processes by means of disruption
and depletion causing dysfunction.



Salvaging this area would remove structural components of great importance
for forest dynamics and forest biodiversity. The decomposition of trees
removed would have provided an important link in cycling on nutrients and
essential elements in the ecosystem. In addition, many species of plants,
fungi and animals are dependent on symplastless trees for nutrients,
essential elements, habitat or substrate and nesting (Kruys and Jonsson,
1999).



Salvaging this area would remove logs, which would have helped reduce
erosion by forming "a barrier to creeping and raveling soils (Maser and
Trappe, 1984 pg4-par1).



Salvaging this area would increase the loss nutrients and essential elements
from the site. Such spots would have been excellent for the establishment
and growth of vegetation, including tree seedlings. Vegetation would have
been established on and help stabilize this "new soil", and as invertebrates
and small vertebrates would have begun to burrow into the new soil, they
would not only have nutritionally enriched it with their feces and urine but
also constantly mixed it by their burrowing activities (Maser and Trappe,
1984 pg 4-par1-2).



Salvaging this area would remove the habitat, i.e., the would be creations,
of inner space within a log, as it would decompose, which many organisms
such as plant roots, mites, collembolans, amphibians, and small mammals,
must await to enter. The flow of plant and animal populations, air, water,
and nutrients as well as essential elements between fallen tree and its
surrounding would have increased if aging process continued and the area was
not salvaged. (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 12).



Salvaging this area would remove the sponge like mass, which would gather
and store moisture and essential elements. Duff fall and throughfall are
major pathways for the flow of essential elements and energy within forests,
they contribute essential elements, nutrients and water to so called rotten
wood. The larger a fallen tree, the more duff it accumulates on its surface
and the more essential element rich moisture it intercepts from the canopy.
The moisture gathers essential elements as it passes through the accumulated
duff and soaks into the fallen tree (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 19-par 2).



Salvaging this area would remove CWD, which the associated epiphytic
bryophytes would have acted as both essential element and moisture buffers
for the ecosystems (FEMAT 1993). This buffering would have allowed the slow
release of water and essential elements to surrounding plants. In mature
and old growth coastal forests, a large proportion of western hemlock and
Sitka spruce seedlings germinate and grow on CWD substrates (Harmon and
Franklin 1989; G. Davis, pers. comm., 1994).



Salvaging this area would alter the chemistry of the system. The main
chemical differences among substrates a (1) nitrogen content; (2) mineral
or ash content-phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium; (3) the carbon
matrix-cellulose, lignin, pentosans and (4) the content of other organic
compounds-waxes, pigments, carbohydrates, fats, resins, phenolic compounds
(Maser and Trappe, 1984 pg11 par 2).



Salvaging this area would alter the amount of nitrogen, however, besides
Nitrogen, Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, and Phosphorus and other essential
elements play key roles in soil, plant and tree health as well as the other
associated living organisms (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and Graham,
1991).



Salvaging this area would remove initial, optimal and final stages of fallen
trees. Plant - nutrient / essential elements - and the succession of plants
on fallen trees is mediated by changes in essential element availability and
physical properties over time. Three broad phases can be defined: initial,
optimal, final. Early invaders prepare the tree for later colonization by
altering its physical and chemical properties during the initial phase. The
altered tree provides the best substrate for a wide array of organisms
during the optimal phase. Ultimately, the depletion of essential elements
and physical deterioration of the wood during the optimal phase diminish its
value for many organisms, so fewer species inhabit the final phase (Maser
and Trappe, 1984, pg 25-par 5).



Salvaging this area would remove CWD, which has the potential to store a
large amount of carbon in the ecosystem. The role of coarse woody debris in
storing carbon is often overlooked, with only living plants or soil carbon
being considered. Relatively little is known about the formation and rate
of decay of coarse woody debris or the factors controlling these processes,
despite the relevance of this information to the global carbon cycle (Harmon
and Hua, 1991).



Salvaging this area would remove future savings accounts of essential
elements and organic material in the forest soil. The decomposing wood of a
fallen tree serves as the latter (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par1).
Elements other than nitrogen such as calcium and magnesium, also accumulate
in decomposing woody substrate. (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par2)



Salvaging this area would remove the interactions of fallen trees which
interact with essential element cycling processes in a forest through such
mechanisms as duff fall (freshly fallen or slightly decomposed plant
material from the canopy), throughfall (rain or dew that picks up elements
as it falls through the canopy), nitrogen fixation, and essential element
uptake by plants associated with the fallen trees (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
19-par2).



Salvaging this area would remove opportunities that ground contact by fallen
trees creates for various interactions with the biotic components of soil
and duff. Fungi, for instance, would translocate essential elements within
the soil- system, as both decomposers and root symbionts. Fungi would also
immobilize translocated essential elements and thereby enrich the
decomposing wood substrates they inhabit. In addition, the colonization of
decomposing fallen trees by nitrogen-fixing bacteria permits additional
nitrogen accretion within the decaying wood (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg
19-par 3).



Salvaging this area would remove the external succession processes and
benefits of CWD, which is related to the changes that take place in the
plant community surrounding a fallen tree (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 38-par
1).



Salvaging this area would remove connectors. A fallen tree is a connector
between the successional stages of a community; it would have provided
continuity of habitat from the previous forest through subsequent
successional stages (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 38-par 1).



Salvaging this area would remove large, would be, fallen or already fallen
tree, which would have provided a physical link - an essential element
savings account - through time and across successional stages. Because of
its persistence, the log or logs would have provided a long- term, stable
structure on which some animal (both invertebrate and vertebrate)
populations appear to depend on for survival (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg
38-par 1).



Salvaging this area would remove humus forming materials, which would have
been important in regulating the incorporation of nitrogen into humic
materials. Because of its high cation exchange capacity and slow
decomposition, so called rotten wood, or chemically altered wood, if you
please, can retain available mineral nitrogen from throughfall and
decomposition as well as organic nitrogen compounds mineralized within the
wood chemical matrix (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg40-par2).



Salvaging this area would remove materials, which roots and mycorrhizae, of
plant species that colonize decaying wood, use for its available nitrogen
(Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg40-par2).



Salvaging this area would alter humic acids, which slow decomposition
reactions in soils. (Shigo, 1999, pg110-#666)



Salvaging this area would remove materials downed, which would have had a
long-term input of nitrogen fixation.



Salvaging this area would alter a positive attempt of balance of nitrogen in
the ecosystem. Salvaging is removing the long term input by nitrogen
fixation in falling trees as they are being chemically altered by the
succession of microorganisms as well as organisms, which is a highly ordered
arrangement. And by canopy inhibiting lichens, which maintain such input
(Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg40-par3).



Salvaging this area would remove of materials that would have had long-term
potential for contributing nitrogen for tree growth as residual lignin and
humus are decomposed (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg41-par1).



Salvaging this area would remove what would be equal to slow release
fertilizer for once fertile forest (Many salts of essential elements over
time). With respect to tree maturity, habitats, both external and internal,
are influenced by tree size - maturity (Internal Regulating System - Dynamic
to Static Mass). An uninterrupted supply of new, immature wood in young
forests decomposes and recycles essential elements and energy rapidly.
Habitats provided by the death of the symplast of young trees are
short-lived and rapidly changing. (E.g., specifically speaking, species of
young trees, which produce protection wood such as heartwood, would have not
formed heartwood). In contrast, the less frequent, more irregular mortality
of the symplast of large trees in old forests is analogous to slow-release
fertilization. (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988,pg44-par2).
Salvaging reduces the amount and quality of humus like materials.



Salvaging this area would remove materials that in time would be decaying
and would have contributed to long-term accumulation of soil organic matter,
partly because the carbon constituents of the future well-decayed wood would
have 80-90 percent residual lignin and humus (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe, and
Franklin, 1988, pg44-par3).



Salvaging this area would remove material that would be incorporated in the
soil and would have aided the establishment of conifer seedlings and
mycorrhizal fungi on dry sites. (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe, and Franklin,
1988, pg44-par3).



Salvaging this area would remove material that in time would have added to
spatial, chemical, and biotic diversity of forest soils, and to the
processes that maintain long-term forest productivity (Maser, Tarrant,
Trappe, and Franklin, 1988. pg44-par3).



I did not intend to address methods or other components of salvaging
processes in this paper, just what is being removed and its chemistry. As
is salvaging within the ANF, machine is used for several treatments (sorry).
Machine entry on an area, which contains trees, reduces diversity because
heavy equipment fragments and scatters class IV and V so called rotten wood.
Habitat diversity declines to a fraction of what had been available,
probably fewer kinds of organisms can thrive. Further, because woody
substrates serve as long-term soil organic material and essential element
reservoirs, increasingly intensive timber management, coupled with shorter
rotations, could significantly alter the role of decaying wood in the
essential element cycling processes (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 48-par 1).



Salvaging this area would remove critical material, which would have served
for mycorrhizal fungi, which can colonize logs, presumably using them as
sources of water and essential elements. (Franklin, Cromack, Kermit, et al.
others, 1981).



Salvaging this area would remove a significant factor in essential element
cycling processes (Harmon et al. 1986; Caza 1993). Although the relative
concentration of essential elements in wood and bark is low, much of the
essential elements capital and carbon are stored here because of the large
biomass involved (Harmon et al. 1986; Caza 1993) (Voller and Harrison,
1998).





Salvaging this area would remove symplastless wood, which would have
facilitated a slow release of essential elements, ameliorated leaching, and
provided a growing substrate for bryophytes (Harmon et al. 1986; FEMAT 1993;
Samuelsson et al. 1994) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).





Salvaging this area would remove material that would buffer water and
essential element release from duff and aboveground processes, especially
processes such as nitrogen fixation in aboveground plants such as hepatics
(Harmon et al. 1986; FEMAT 1993; Samuelsson et al. 1994) (Voller and
Harrison, 1998).



Bacteria are very small. They do big things (Shigo, 1999, #216 pg34)



Salvaging this area would remove habitat for free-living bacteria, which in
woody residues and soil wood fix 30-60% of the nitrogen in the forest soil.
In addition, 20% of soil nitrogen is stored in these components (Harvey et
al. 1987). Harmon et al. (1986) reported that CWD accounted for as much as
45% of aboveground stores of organic matter. Symplastless wood in
terrestrial ecosystems is a primary location for fungal colonization and
often acts as refugia for mycorrhizal fungi during ecosystem disturbance
(Triska and Cromack 1979; Harmon et al. 1986; Caza 1993) (Voller and
Harrison, 1998).



Salvaging this area would remove one of the suspected, most important stages
in essential element cycling by the colonization of symplastless wood by
fungi and microbes (Caza 1993); however, these processes are still
relatively poorly understood. In fact soil wood contains a disproportionate
amount of the coniferous non-woody roots or ectomycorrhizae in forests
(Harvey et al. 1987). As one of the dominant sources of organic matter,
salvaging removes symplastless wood, which would have had an important
determinant in soil formation and composition (Caza 1993) (Voller and
Harrison, 1998)



Salvaging this area would remove symplastless wood which would have provided
physical structure to the ecosystem and filled such roles as sediment
storage (Wilford 1984), protecting the forest floor from mineral soil
erosion and mechanical disturbance during harvesting activities (Voller and
Harrison, 1998).



Salvaging this area would remove material that would ameliorate the affects
of cold air drainage on plants, helps stabilize slopes, and minimizes soil
erosion (Maser et al. 1988) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).



Salvaging this area would remove symplastless wood, which would provide
elevated germination platforms with reduced duff fall accumulation and
relatively consistent moisture regimes (Harmon et al. 1986; Maser et al.
1988; Caza 1993; D.F. Fraser, pers. comm., 1995) (Voller and Harrison,
1998).



Conclusion: The capacity and ability, of CWD, to function as a nutrient and
essential element storehouse, too often goes unobserved such as in
salvaging. Technical reports clearly point out that the long term
continuity of decaying trees are structural components of forests. CWD are
reservoirs for nutrients as well as essential elements for long periods of
time. CWD provides a source of energy and essential element flow. Timber
harvest and salvage after disturbances reduces pool of stable nutrients and
essential elements. Symplastless trees are structural components of great
importance for forest dynamics and forest biodiversity. Many species of
plants, fungi and animals are dependent on symplastless trees for nutrients,
essential elements, habitat or substrate and nesting. The benefits and
their persistence, in the cycling of essential elements and providing
nutrients is a function which contributes to system health and a obligatory
function to operate at a high quality state, i.e., operating about the means
in which is was designed. Therefore the removal of such materials that
would provide a physical link - an essential element savings account -
through time and across successional stages is not indicative or technically
published to be, a treatment, which would protect or increase forest health.
In all honestly, it will reduce protection thus forest health as well.



End 3 of 16 More to come.


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

"D. Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...

Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
beetles had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what
ever use you would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the
beetles? Just let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring
the right of a land owner to restore his land to production, other than
brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use
others work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are
educated in forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on
"dissection", Shigo meters, and the rest of which you have not the
slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.
Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

Lets use a tornado as an disturbance and not bark beetles.
1 of 16
Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas, which I would assume is a forestry industry standard.
"Salvage and restoration. There comes a time when nature just does not
cooperate with the best of management efforts. At that time you may have
to salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different sales
effort for forest products. Usually, the sales material is damaged, dead,
or dying. Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and incomes
low. But, best to move the material, get it out of the way for future
work. Take what income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for
planting the site."

I except the definition but I disagree that you can plant a forest and the
fact that you may have to remove what is left which in this case would be
the old growth conditions (Tionesta)

You EXCEPT the definition? You dumb ass, what do you do with 500 dead trees
falling on an acre of land? What use does a landowner have for a tinder box
of dead wood?
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Yard Man
http://home.ccil.org/~treedman
and www.trededictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
that will give them understanding.

Same as above, you dumb ass.

Same as above, you dumb ass.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
First thing you will have to do is define what a forest is, then define
what a consulting forester is. Then you will have to explain with data
backup, just how removing all the wood from a once fertile forest
increases forest health.

CHOW
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Yard Man
http://home.ccil.org/~treedman
and www.treeddictionary.com

Hey, dumb ass, you want me to give you a college degree in forestry on this
board? Show us your education so I know where to start. Right now it looks
like some where around the fifth grade.

In article pplyinc,
"D. Staples" wrote:

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
from - Texas Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.


Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Yard man
/home.ccil.org/~treedan
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
that will give them understanding.



Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark beetles
had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what ever use you
would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the beetles? Just
let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring the right of a land
owner to restore his land to production, other than brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use others
work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are educated in
forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on "dissection", Shigo
meters, and the rest of which you have not the slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.

Out of curiosity Don, are you a member of the Forest Stewardship
Council? Do you use their services often? How would you characterize
them? Please respond when you get a chance.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
So called "SALVAGE and RESTORATION (of a forest) by my good friend critic
from - Texas Don Staples who keeps taking me to task is addressed here.

As the story goes with respect to the plight of the Koala, humans are
breaking too many connections too fast. As a result many living things
are leaving this earth. If this trend continues, only microscopic living
things will remain, and the circle of life will go back to beginning. Dr.
Alex L. Shigo. The

The plight of this partially blind koala [see picture he #431
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...itis/fire.html ] is due
to ignorance of tree basics. Koalas eat the leaves of only about six
species of Eucalyptus. Man loved the koala's so much, he built his homes
close to the Eucalyptus Groves because he wanted to be close to them.
But, the Eucalyptus Groves go up very fast and burn very hot. So, out of
the ignorance of tree biology, man dug fire trenches. In doing so, the
trees were injured below ground (woody and non-woody roots - for
starters). When trees are threatened or injured - they do something -
they respond. Because of the fire ditches to reduce the threat of fire
and over development, most of the leaves on the declining trees in the
area tanned. Tanning is a chemical process of combining phenol-based
substances with proteins, and the disruption of hydrogen bonds leaves the
protein indigestible. In one sense the hydrogen bonds, are held open by
toothpicks. The enzymes of the koala would enter to digest the leaves.
Tanning is like, removing the toothpicks. The animals ate and ate, but
received little nutrition. Lots of moisture, wet spot developed. A
spirochete similar to syphilis entered and was passed along by mating.
Many koalas died. The good news is that development in the area was not
only stopped, but many developed areas will be returned to their original
state.

With that said, I think the treatment to once fertile forest, yes even in
Texas, such as Don Staples refers to as "SALVAGE AND RESTORATION" per his
website, is deforestation. You cannot plant a forest. Yes, I claim he is
a crook, to sell people removing everything remaining is restoration by
means of salvaging and leads to some sort of improvement of health of
trees as well as associates.
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

I wondered what function wood would play in PROTECTING A FOREST containing
any species of trees. So I read some publications that were peer-reviewed
in refereed journals. The US FOREST SERVICE has a awesome library system.
The researchers are some of the finest in the world. So I decided to
document these findings. I prophesize that negative results will happen
if Don's salvaging plans are carried out.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...tis/index.html I tried
to give page, paragraph and so forth where quotes can be found.

Please think. There is no reason why you cannot think. BTW, all parts of
a tree are born alive and trees only absorb water when the roots are
growing. This is the beginning of a response to a year of negative
criticism from Don Staples and company. There has been a long time battle
between Modern Arboriculture and Old Arboriculture in Texas.

--
Do to the overwhelming amount a negative criticism by a few individuals on
this list, I am "only" willing to get into debate by way of email. I have
a background in tree biology, my negative critics do not. I am willing to
answer any questions you may have. If I do not have the answer I know
where to get it, based on a thorough understanding of tree biology.
Contact me at A good foundation for
understanding trees, associates and treatments, can be found he
www.shigoandtrees.com Most topics, correct planting, mulching, pruning
and fertilization can be found at www.treedictionary.com

Happy gardening!

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
that will give them understanding.



My thinking is in terms of an ecosystem, not just the forest and its trees.
In the hill country of central Texas, there are 2 predominant trees. One is
the juniper ashe (cedar), and the other is the live oak. No sooner folks
buy their 5, 10, or 20 acre plot of land; they are out there clearing out
all the "cedars", and undergrowth. There's no more hiding places for the
white-tailed deer, the jackrabbits, the "coons", and possums. Before
clearing, the white-tailed deer have regular routes in foraging. As a
consequence, they (deer) either change their route, or, disappear from the
area completely. Yet, the same people, if asked why they moved out here,
say they love seeing the deer among other reasons. I shake my head in
disgust of their ignorance. Basically, it looks like a mild open desert
with trees (live oaks) here and there when done. Automobiles have pretty
much decimated the armadillo in Texas. Another Texas native, the
roadrunner, is slowly dying away.

If you want a project, suggest researching the ecosystem of Central Texas.
In particular, the relationship between juniper ashe, the live oak, and
various sundry undergrowth with wildlife. Texas A&M, the common source of
tree, and other plant life knowledge here, is more concerned with how stuff
affects people's lives and targets single species, not the ecosystem during
their research projects. As you advertise being a professional, I thought
would be appropriate for you.

Texas is basically divided into a few general areas regarding natively
growing trees. East, the piney woods. Coastal, generally mesquite and a
few oaks. Told you about Central Texas. North is generally a plains area.
West, generally desert. So, you have to be more specific when targeting
Texas regarding "forest".
--
Dave

New drilling sites for oil offshore and other
sensitive places. Question is, will that oil
go here in the U.S., or someplace else for sale?

"Don Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...
"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

"D. Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...

Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
beetles had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what
ever use you would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the
beetles? Just let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring
the right of a land owner to restore his land to production, other than
brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use
others work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are
educated in forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on
"dissection", Shigo meters, and the rest of which you have not the
slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with
false environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has
led to the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.
Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

Lets use a tornado as an disturbance and not bark beetles.
1 of 16
Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas, which I would assume is a forestry industry standard.
"Salvage and restoration. There comes a time when nature just does not
cooperate with the best of management efforts. At that time you may have
to salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different sales
effort for forest products. Usually, the sales material is damaged, dead,
or dying. Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and incomes
low. But, best to move the material, get it out of the way for future
work. Take what income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for
planting the site."

I except the definition but I disagree that you can plant a forest and
the fact that you may have to remove what is left which in this case
would be the old growth conditions (Tionesta)

You EXCEPT the definition? You dumb ass, what do you do with 500 dead
trees falling on an acre of land? What use does a landowner have for a
tinder box of dead wood?

Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

LOL you really don't understand trees or their associates with respect to
their requirements. You think wood is dead, I think you need to go to
school and study the ecological stages of trees and their associates before
you offer people advice on managing the ecological stages of trees. What do
you do for a living? You surely don't depend on your knowledge of trees to
support yourself.


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

"Don Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...
"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

Answer the questions, dumb ass.