On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:35:10 GMT, Pam wrote:


One indication it is too acidic without doing any testing is the amount of
moss it produces. A mossy lawn is very indicative of too low a soil pH.

And I have to agree with Ann that proper pH levels are a concern. Less so
with more ornamental plants which are more tolerant of a range of soil pH,
but quite important when it comes to growing a healthy lawn or vegetables,
neither of which thrive in the acidic soils that are common to parts of the
east and west coast.

pam - gardengal

Oh, I agree with Ann, having lived on Long Island, the island of lost pines and
acid! I had many customers come to me with their woes of pH problems. As soon
as they started using pelletized lime, their pH didn't need as much adjustment
each year, or even the twice a year people were using lime.

Nothing will KEEP the pH down forever, but I was wondering if it was checked to
see that maybe liming was unnecessary for a season or so.

V

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:09:26 GMT, zhanataya wrote:

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:10:55 GMT, animaux
wrote:

Okay, start again. Rule number one: Never blindly do what a nice neighbor
tells you to do. My neighbor shoots and eats mourning doves in his backyard,
puts down 25 pounds of Ironite yearly, and waters every day for 5 minutes. I
wont be taking his advice!

I don't recommend eating at his house either! Eating mourning doves
is on par with eating a pet cat. Aren't there laws against firing
weapons in a populated area?

zhan

This is Texas. However, I'm sure there are laws, but I'm not in the city (so to
speak). This is the same man who took a neighbors cat to the woods, dumped it
and would not tell the neighbor where he dumped it. It was a manx cat,
beautiful and not a bother to anyone. I did warn the cats owner that this idiot
would do something like that, but they didn't take heed. This idiot also goes
wild boar hunting and he hung it, dead, on the basketball hoop eyesore in his
driveway. THAT was not acceptable to me and I called police and he had to take
it down. But oh what a ****ing asshole this guy is.

V

_______________________
I hope you meant lime.

Kara Tyson
Lyme Disease Support Group of AL

Of course! I am German, will I be forgiven?
Jana

animaux expounded:


Do you have the soil tested? How do you know it is still so low in pH?

Yes, I do. And for the second, because I retest. Really, I think
after growing this lawn for 25 years I do have a clue.

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

Ann expounded:

Yes, I do. And for the second, because I retest. Really, I think
after growing this lawn for 25 years I do have a clue.

Victoria, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound so churlish. I just got
home from work and hadn't unwound yet!

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 19:07:10 -0500, Ann wrote:

animaux expounded:


Do you have the soil tested? How do you know it is still so low in pH?

Yes, I do. And for the second, because I retest. Really, I think
after growing this lawn for 25 years I do have a clue.

Ann, I never meant to imply otherwise. You should know better. I suppose I
used the opportunity for others to read the exchange and have their soil tested
before adding lime. I know people down HERE in calciferous soil with a pH of
8.5 in many places, with only a few inches of soil who add lime!

Did you know about pelletized lime? You may not need that second app. if you
use it. I don't know about where you are, but it helped down on Long Island.
Completely different conditions, I'm aware.

Victoria

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 20:38:18 -0500, Ann wrote:

Ann expounded:

Yes, I do. And for the second, because I retest. Really, I think
after growing this lawn for 25 years I do have a clue.

Victoria, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound so churlish. I just got
home from work and hadn't unwound yet!

No prob. We are having an ice storm after a few days of 80 degrees. It's
enough to drive me wacky.

Victoria

animaux expounded:

Did you know about pelletized lime? You may not need that second app. if you
use it. I don't know about where you are, but it helped down on Long Island.
Completely different conditions, I'm aware.

I haven't heard good stuf about that pelletized lime, we were told not
to use it in an organic veggie garden, and I don't mind the white
stuff, so I use that instead.

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

Of course! I am German, will I be forgiven?
Jana
________________
Ja...or it that Ya.

Kara

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:29:10 -0500, Ann wrote:

animaux expounded:

Did you know about pelletized lime? You may not need that second app. if you
use it. I don't know about where you are, but it helped down on Long Island.
Completely different conditions, I'm aware.

I haven't heard good stuf about that pelletized lime, we were told not
to use it in an organic veggie garden, and I don't mind the white
stuff, so I use that instead.

The fine white powdery stuff works just as well as the pelletized.
But, the white powder is quite messy and easily inhaled. The
pelletized stuff (for the lawn) distributes well in a broadcast
spreader.

The only product similar to a weed 'n feed I would recommend is corn
gluten meal and it is not marketed as such. It is a natural
pre-emergent
herbicide as well as having some good fertilization ability, specially
when used on lawns. Otherwise, any organic lawn fertilizer is
preferrable.

As Pam said, for future reference, corn gluten pre-emergents are
wonderful! They prevent weeds (and any other plants for that matter)
by inhibiting the seed's ability to produce roots. The weeds simply
can't sprout from seed. The product is not hazardous to humans, pets,
birds, or insects. You can even apply it to your garden when your
plants are beyond the seedling stage, as again, it only prevents seeds
from sprouting yet it's harmless to growing plants. And best of all,
your precious baby can go out crawling on the lawn the moment you're
done applying it!

I know this advice is of little use to you *this* year, but next year
pick yourself up a bag of this stuff. "Concern" makes it and calls it
"Weed Prevention Plus". It's available online at
http://www.victorpest.com/lawncare/weedprevention.htm

Timing is critical for apply pre-emergents, and should be done just
about the time daffodils and crocus appear in your neighborhood (which
is right now in mine). As for fertilization, that should really be
handled as a separate chore, once your lawn is actively growing and
hungry for some feeding. Compost is an excellent choice, though I
never seem to have enough of the precious stuff to use it on my lawn.

Best o' luck to you.

-Fleemo

Wishfully the majority of school districts around the country should
have caught on by now about the dangers of the chemicals they put on
their grounds and what it can do do people and children.

animaux wrote:
=

On 22 Feb 2003 23:59:01 GMT, (GrampysGurl) wrote:
=

It's a learning process, we are from a country that wants instant ever=
ything.
When one asks a question we can gently lead them to better alternative=
s lol. No
one at the Home Depot ever told us of our other options, I had to go o=
ut and
find those on my own... Only recently has it become easier to find inf=
ormation
on organic and conservational gardening.

Colleen Ann
=

You're right. I was in a ****y mood yesterday. I do grow weary of peo=
ple who
read the bag (finally they read it) yet, they still use the stuff when =
they have
babies who will play on it. I lost my temper, momentarily. You are ri=
ght.
=

V

-- =

J. Kolenovsky, A+, Network +, MCP
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.celestialhabitats.com - commercial
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/personal.html

Holger Friebe wrote:
Are there any internet pages to order organic fertilizers (do organic
herbicides even exist?).

Where can you get Cheap Natural Fertilizers and Soil Amendments?

"Chemical fertilizers rely on an assumption that plants only need three
elements to survive and thrive. Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are
those three. This is the equivalent of saying that we need protein, fat,
and sugar to live. While this may be mostly true, pure protein, pure
fat, and pure sugar do nothing to supply the vitamins,minerals, and
diverse supply of bacteria and fungi in our diets. =


Here is a list of a dozen things that you can do with organically fed
soil that cannot be achieved with conventional chemical feeding. =


1. Decompose plant residues and manure to humus. =


2. Retain nutrients in the form of stable humus. =


3. Combine nitrogen and carbon to prevent nutrient loss. =


4. Suppress fungus and bacterial diseases. =


5. Produce plant growth regulators. =


6. Develop soil structure, tilth, and water penetration/retention. =


7. Clean up chemical residues. =


8. Shift soil pH to neutral and keep it there. =


9. Search out and retrieve nutrients in distant parts of the soil. =


10. Decompose thatch and keep it from returning. =


11. Control nitrogen supply to the plants according to need. =


12. Pull minerals out of inorganic soil components for plants. =

=


Soil microbes need sugar and protein to thrive. When you apply synthetic
ferts, none of the things on this list gets done. The microbes normally
get sugar from plant roots. Protein in nature comes from dead insects,
plants, and animals. The organic gardener applies protein artificially
in the form or organic fertilizers. It is usually in the form ofa ground
up meal made from plants and animals to try to replicate the natural
process." =


************************************************** ***** =


With that being said, many times it is difficult to find good organic or
natural fertilizers and soil amendments from garden stores because most
of the garden people that we meet are non-organic users. Therefore as an
organic gardener, we have to be creative in order to find our supplies. =


This is a simple list of sources for uses in foliar teas, composting and
green manure techniques, and other soil amendments: =


1. Deer plot mixes - 50 lb bag is a great source of economical cool
season cover crop seeds. Most contain a mixture of legumes and
grasses like crimson clover or hairy vetch or winter peas, oats, winter
wheat, and rye. =


2. Catfish or pond fish feed - Excellent source of alfalfa meal and fish
meal for topdressing or compost teas. =


3. Cat or Dog foods - Good source of corn gluten meal for weed seed
suppression control in lawns or gardens. =

=


4. Seaweed - If you can't collect it free from the beach, you can buy
economical packs of fresh seaweed from oriental markets for compost
teas. Take all your remains from your teas and recycle them into your
compost piles. If you liquify the seaweed in a juice, you can use the
whole product as a foliar feed or soil drench. Even though most
fertilizer companies rate seaweed with a NPK of 0-0-1, it contains at
least 1% total N and over 3%total P. Seaweed may contain as much as 60
trace elements. Seaweed and other algae plants are some of the greatest
soil amendments on earth, or should I say in the ocean. Seaweed also
contains beneficial growth hormones and benefical fungal food sources
for soil microbes. =


5. Fish emulsion - Commercial brands contain no fish oil and little or
no aerobic bacteria. Homemade versions supply extra beneficial oils for
beneficial fungi and fish bones for extra calcium. Free fresh fish parts
are the best if available. However, cheap canned fish products will do
fine. Experiment with canned mackerel, sardines, herring, etc. If the
fishy smell is a big issue, just mix your fish products with a lot of
high carbon sources like sawdust, leaves, or straw in a 5 gallon closed
bucket. Let this mix decompose for at least a week or more before adding
to the hot compost pile or to your compost tea recipes. The extra
carbons will help absorb the offensive odors as well as keep most of the
organic nitrogen in your compost pile or your compost teas. Also the
aerobic bacteria kill break down any bad pathogens that may exist in
decaying fish meat. Read the other FAQ's on aerated teas and homemade
fish/seaweed emulsions also. =


6. Fava beans, soybeans, and other legume cover crops - Mostly all
bagged dry beans and peas in grocery stores will sprout and make great
warm season green manures. Fava beans and soybeans can found in oriental
markets or health food markets. =


7. Horse and cattle feeds - These contain a great supply of alfalfa meal
and corn meal and other proteins for soil amendments or compost teas.
The whole corn or oat seeds in the bags, may sprout and give you an
extra green manure benefit. The extra molasses ingredient from the feeds
draws and breeds lots of beneficial soil
organisms. Molasses also contains sulfurwhich acts as a mild natural
fungicide also. =


8. Corn meal - very cheap source for a nitrogen activator for heating up
the compost pile or as a topdressing. Great natural fungicide also. =


9. Molasses, brown sugar, corn syrup - source of fast consuming sugars
for feeding and breeding the aerobic bacteria in compost teas. Most
microherd populations love the high carbon content in sugar products.
Sugars are best dissolved and broken down by microbes in compost tea
that has brewed at least 1-3 days, before applying to the soil. If too
much sugar is added on soil straight as a topdressing, it may cause a
temporary nitrogen deficiency in the soil as the microherd populations
grow too fast. Molasses also contains sulfur which acts as a mild
natural fungicide also. Molasses is also a great natural deodorizer for
fishy teas. =


10. Alfalfa meal - best source is 50 lb bags of rabbit food or alfalfa
hay bales. There are also 100% alfalfa pet litter or beddings if
available. Alfalfa products are best used in teas, mulches, or as
top dressings. =


11. Blood and Bone meal - this classic combo can be found almost
everywhere these days. However blood meal is very expensive. Bone meal
can be even cheaper if purchased in 20 lb bags from feed stores. Since
blood meal is totally soluble, it can be added to compost tea recipes..
With a NPK around 11-0-0, it has the highest total nitrogen ratio of all
natural fertilizers, and may burn plants if used improperly. Steamed
bone meal has a recorded NPK around 0-11-0. Usually steamed bone meal
has a total N from 1-6%, 11% soluble P but 20% total P, and 24% calcium.
Raw bone meal has more total N but none of the P is water soluble. =


12. Urine - yes, human urine is an excellent source of organic nitrogen
for compost teas or as a free nitrogen activator for composting (45% N).
(NOTE: Unlike human manure, any
pathogens, diseases, or other mild toxins in human urine are quickly
killed and digested within 24 hours after they escape the human body.
Therefore human urine is very safe for all types of composting methods.) =

=

13. Animal Manures - High in N and great sources of P and K and soil
microbes. Use only vegetarian animal manures, like cattle or horses! DO
NOT EVER USE DOG OR CAT POOP! It is extremely dangerous to humans. There
are special composting procedures that must be performed to use toxic,
heavy metal manures like pet poop and human manures. So don't do it!
Always compost animal manures first
or use aged animal manures before applying to the soil or as an
ingredient in foliar teas. =


14. Grass Clippings and Green Weeds - Excellent sources or organic N for
special foliar teas or use as an organic mulch/top dressing. Some
gardeners even hot compost strange weeds and herbs like kudzu, bull
thistle, dandelions, comfrey, stinging nettle, thorns, ivy, etc. =


The above soil amendment products can also be buried straight in the
garden soil for trench composting. You can also bury these materials in
planting holes under the roots of heavy feeder transplants like tomatoes
for extra NPK for plant growth. =


All natural soil amendments as well as homemade compost, do more than
just fertilize the soil and growing plants. Most natural soil amendments
have a total NPK rating sum total less than 20 (i.e. fish emulsion NPK =3D=

5-1-1,compost NPK less than 4-4-4). Don't be fooled by the numbers. Most
P and K ratings only record the soluble available portions in the
products. The N portion recorded could be either the soluble, insoluble,
or total N portions as based on the company. The insoluble non-reported
portion of OM is continuously consumed and broken down with the existing
OM in the garden soil, thus raising the available soluble nutrients for
further season crops. =


Happy Gardening! =

-- =

J. Kolenovsky, A+, Network +, MCP
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.celestialhabitats.com - commercial
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/personal.html

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 23:58:47 -0600, J Kolenovsky
wrote:

Holger Friebe wrote:
Are there any internet pages to order organic fertilizers (do organic
herbicides even exist?).

Where can you get Cheap Natural Fertilizers and Soil Amendments?

"Chemical fertilizers rely on an assumption that plants only need three
elements to survive and thrive. Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are
those three. This is the equivalent of saying that we need protein, fat,
and sugar to live. While this may be mostly true, pure protein, pure
fat, and pure sugar do nothing to supply the vitamins,minerals, and
diverse supply of bacteria and fungi in our diets.

Here is a list of a dozen things that you can do with organically fed
soil that cannot be achieved with conventional chemical feeding.

[...rest of good stuff snipped...]

Wanted to thank you for a *beautiful* message that is worth clipping
and sending to everybody we know that is into lawns, lawns, lawns, via
poisonous chemicals.



--
Polar

Thanks Ann for tempering my quick statement. There are, however, more
positive effects from really working at the soil biota development. In
high pH ranges we are having far more successes with allowing the
plants to control their own root zone pH. It's really amazing when we
see drops in pH without chemical amendment. I'm told there are also
successes with low pH soils.
We've given up on traditional testing and looked more towards Morgan
extractions, what A & L calls S7. These results seem to given a
clearer picture as to what is PLANT available rather than IN the soil.
By addressing nutrition as plant available and monitoring the soil
biology low pH soils are also less problematic. At least that's the
opinion of the researchers we've been working with.


regards,
tomj
www.livesoil.com


On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 05:59:33 -0500, Ann wrote:

Tom Jaszewski expounded:

pH is a figment of inorganic gardeners
imagination....

Tom, that's not true. You need to put in a disclaimer that it depends
on where you live. Without limestone, my soil is naturally 4.5 to
5....way to acid to grow grass. And I do grow a nice lawn,
organically, using regular old fashioned limestone applications twice
a year.




Regards,

tomj