On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 02:01:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

"Natura abhorret a vacuo"

Well, there's plenty of sunlight, poor soils, and no water to speak
of ... so, you're right - the only thing that grows are the weeds.

In fact, as you surmised, on my unwatered lawn, are basically these
two plants (wild mustard and some kind of other nasty looking thing):
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411202.jpg

Looking closer at the nasty looking thing, it has nasty leaves:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411200.jpg

And, a nasty purplish headress:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411198.jpg

I think it's some kind of horrid thistle all over my fescue lawn:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411201.jpg

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Kay Lancaster wrote:
...
Oh yes, one other gardening proverb to consider "One season's seeding is
5 season's weeding." Except that it's really more like "One season's
seeding
is 50+ years weeding.

yes, but once you get a cover crop growing which
shades the area the mustard will have a much harder
time taking over again, if you can keep at it for a
few seasons you can effectively eliminate it other
than having to spot weed a few times a season.
that's still much less time i spend in this one
garden than i used to (when it was full of weeds
and the soil was much poorer).

now i actually let a few mustard plants grow and
bloom (but not scatter seeds) because we like the
early yellow flowers.


songbird

Ignore Kay at your own peril.
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
...
Oh yes, one other gardening proverb to consider "One season's seeding is
5 season's weeding." Except that it's really more like "One season's
seeding
is 50+ years weeding.

yes, but once you get a cover crop growing which
shades the area the mustard will have a much harder
time taking over again, if you can keep at it for a
few seasons you can effectively eliminate it other
than having to spot weed a few times a season.
that's still much less time i spend in this one
garden than i used to (when it was full of weeds
and the soil was much poorer).

now i actually let a few mustard plants grow and
bloom (but not scatter seeds) because we like the
early yellow flowers.

Ignore Kay at your own peril.

i'm well aware...

http://www.anthive.com/flowers/100_5...low_Spiral.jpg

that was a picture from few years ago.

this year i've only had to pull a few plants out
of that same patch. the seeds are still there --
if i were to return the area to bare dirt i'd have
them attempt to take over again.

the roots are quite tough, if you don't get all
of them they'll resprout. the good news though is
that the plant doesn't grow all that fast as compared
to many others. checking once a month has been good
enough (after they've done their spring-time
flowering). i keep clipping them off and letting
them lay as compost. the few that do resprout
don't grow much at all, they can't get much light
through the trefoil or alfalfa.


songbird

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:42:03 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

And, a nasty purplish headress:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411198.jpg

....purple thistle weed

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.gardens.]
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:42:03 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 02:01:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

"Natura abhorret a vacuo"

In fact, as you surmised, on my unwatered lawn, are basically these
two plants (wild mustard and some kind of other nasty looking thing):
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411202.jpg

Looking closer at the nasty looking thing, it has nasty leaves:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411200.jpg

And, a nasty purplish headress:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411198.jpg

I think it's some kind of horrid thistle all over my fescue lawn:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411201.jpg

Try pulling one up... you may find they're attached to an underground
root and stolon system, in which case you may be dealing with
Canada thistle, Cirsium arvense, a noxious weed* in California, and
you might want to consider some minor chemical warfare, as fragments of
the underground portions of the plants about 3/8" long can start new
ones, as can all the seeds. http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/management...mber=182.ph p
They can basically take over an area in a few years.

Seeds last up to about 20 years in the soil, and can travel miles on the
wind because they have a little "parachute" of hairs (pappus), and also
many songbirds eat the seeds.

*Noxious weed is a legal definition, meaning the plant is a peril to
agriculture. I think C. arvense is a class B, but it's been 30 years
since I lived in CA, so you might want to check it. In some counties,
everyone may be required to control it, in which case you're legally
obligated to deal with it.

I control it here in my Oregon yard with heading the flowers**
as soon as I see them, and spot applications of glyphosate on
established plants in the fall. Heading has to be done vigilantly--
at least once a week.
**Canada thistle is a member of the Asteraceae (also known as the
Compositae) the dandelion family -- each of those purple "petals" is an
entire flower, and the flowers eventually develop one-seeded fruits
that are dispersed by birds and wind.

FWIW, I had a bunch of downed trees a couple of years ago, and burning them
was the only practical means I had to get rid of them. So I built the
bonfire on top of a big Canada thistle to get an idea of what might happen
in a wildfire. The fire burned for about 6 hours, got very hot, and left
a lot of very alkaline ash. Next year, guess what I had under the bonfire
site? Only the Canada thistle survived, and it was doing well.

In article
Kay Lancaster writes:
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.gardens.]
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 04:42:03 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

I think it's some kind of horrid thistle all over my fescue lawn:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411201.jpg

Try pulling one up... you may find they're attached to an underground
root and stolon system, in which case you may be dealing with
Canada thistle, Cirsium arvense, a noxious weed* in California, and
you might want to consider some minor chemical warfare, as fragments of
the underground portions of the plants about 3/8" long can start new
ones, as can all the seeds. http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/management...mber=182.ph p

His plant's flowers looked too large for Canada thistle, at least
based on the ones I deal with (in Ohio). But I suppose that might
vary with growing conditions.

They can basically take over an area in a few years.

I made the mistake of ignoring them. They got well established in
the area that I just returned to a vegetable garden this year. I
tilled, which broke up the underground network (or most of it), but
I still have to get the survivors before they have a chance to
reestablish it.

But till & trowel isn't an attractive solution if they are in the
lawn.

I control it here in my Oregon yard with heading the flowers**
as soon as I see them, and spot applications of glyphosate on
established plants in the fall. Heading has to be done vigilantly--
at least once a week.

I never had much success with glyphosate. (I keep it on hand for
poison ivy and a couple other special cases.) I attributed that to
the root network.

One end of the yard is a garden with Canada thistle, the other end
is lawn with Bermuda grass (the undesirable sort).

I have a way of attracting invasive weeds, I suppose.

--
Drew Lawson | I told them we had learned to change
| our swordblades into plows.
| I told them they should learn from us
| what should I tell them now?

On 6/25/2013 9:24 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:11:03 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

right now, i have a 2" scorpion in a jar on my office desk. creeps a lot
of people out, though that keeps the traffic into my office down.

I just shipped this lovely lady to you, via USPS Express Mail:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411163.jpg

What I really need is a square-sided large thin-walled glass jar
to take better pictures of my captures...


thank you, but i already have my own set of these, along with brown
recluse spiders, so need no more. what i also have a lot of and
encourage are funnel spiders and tarantulas, but not indoors.

http://www.desertmuseum.org/books/nh...web_spider.php

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 02:01:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

Turn the flower upside down and you'll find there are 4 green sepals,
then the four yellow petals.

Thanks for that information.

Here's a picture of the underside of the wild mustard flower:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419875.jpg

Is the green arrow pointing to a (football-shaped) sepal?

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 15:42:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

Try pulling one up... you may find they're attached to an underground
root and stolon system, in which case you may be dealing with
Canada thistle, Cirsium arvense, a noxious weed* in California

Hi Kay,

I started pulling one up, then another, and another, and another,
until ... after a long while ... I filled my chest-high green recycling
bin with the thistle!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419889.jpg

I'm not sure how they process those things at the town recycling
center - but those thistle thorns are nasty!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419894.jpg

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 06:43:21 -0700, Oren wrote:

And, a nasty purplish headress:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13411198.jpg

...purple thistle weed

Worse. Purple *thorny* thistle weed!

And, I might add, the photos below should show why I've grown
to instantly hate pulling out this purple thorny thistle weed!

1. I knew these dainty rubberized garden gloves didn't stand a chance:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419898.jpg

2. And, I instantly realized these leather & cloth gloves wouldn't work:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419899.jpg

3. I wasn't shocked when the thorns went right thru deerskin gloves:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419901.jpg

4. But, I was surprised thick pigskin was no match for the thorns:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419902.jpg

5. At the pressure you need to grasp & pull, even the thicker
cowhide gloves were painfully allowing thorns to puncture me:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419905.jpg

6. I was almost out of options, when I grabbed my heavy gas
welding gloves - which hadn't been used in years, so they
were as stiff - and even they allowed a few thorns in - but
for the most part, they were the *only* gloves that weren't
too painful to use to grasp the thorny thistle plants tightly
enough to pull them out of the dry ground.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419911.jpg

Rarely have almost *all* my gloves failed me - but, the thorny
purple thistle weed was a challenge that dared to be overcome!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419913.jpg

Any neighbors must have looked at me oddly when I finally figured
out how to pull them out without bleeding, as I held them up in
the air in my gloved hand exalting in my thorny triumph!
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419920.jpg

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 15:42:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

Try pulling one up... you may find they're attached to an underground
root and stolon system, in which case you may be dealing with
Canada thistle, Cirsium arvense, a noxious weed*

Hmmm... I don't know what a "root and stolon" system looks like.

Most looked like taproots - like this:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419976.jpg

Or this:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419977.jpg

And this:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419978.jpg

However, some came out as 'clump' roots - like this:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419980.jpg

And this:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419981.jpg

PS: It was only half way through the eradication task that I
belatedly realized shoving a garden hose nozzle into the center
of the plant and blasting the roots loose was the way to go!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13419992.jpg

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 15:42:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

Seeds last up to about 20 years in the soil, and can travel miles on the
wind because they have a little "parachute" of hairs (pappus), and also
many songbirds eat the seeds.

I didn't see songbirds eating; but I did watch this one bee with interest.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13420046.jpg

I'm not sure what it was looking for - but it kept digging away on
the purple stuff (which is just about the only non-thorny thing):
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13420047.jpg

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 15:42:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

I control it here in my Oregon yard with heading the flowers**
as soon as I see them, and spot applications of glyphosate on
established plants in the fall.

Hi Kay,

I have 5 gallons of concentrated 40-something percent glyphosate, so,
I do have plenty to go around ... but what does "heading" mean?

I guess that means to chop off the purple 'ball' at the top?
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13420064.jpg

What about the green balls that look slightly different?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13420070.jpg

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 15:42:03 +0000, Kay Lancaster wrote:

*Noxious weed is a legal definition, meaning the plant is a peril to
agriculture.

At first, I thought lovely thorny plant was a "Purple Starthistle",
(Centaurea calcitrapa), which is an invasive weed in the San Francisco
Bay Area:
http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/management...mber=182.ph p

But, now I think it's a Bull Thistle (Cirsium vulgare), which is also
prominant in the bay area, based on the fact that this looks like it:
http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/management...um_vulgare.php

This site says it has a taproot and that "cut flowerheads can still develop
viable seed", but I would have no idea how:
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/ipc/weedinfo/cirsium.htm

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 06:43:21 -0700, Oren wrote:

...purple thistle weed

I think it's a "Bull Thistle" (Cirsium vulgare).

Apparently it only reproduces by seed, but, the seeds must be
removed from the area...
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/13420241.jpg

http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/management...mber=182.ph p
Plants from Yosemite Valley that were cut at the root crown a few days
after their first flowers appeared and then laid on the ground produced
abundant viable seed (Randall pers. observation). Thus it may be
important to remove cut stems from the area.