I've read a lot about rotaing crops/plants and for me it isn't
terribly practical. Tomatoes & peppers cover most of my area so
rotating really can't be done. I only have one large size container
without peppers(7 plants) or tomatoes(3 plants) so unless I grow my
garden considerably rotation really isn't possible. (I've kept it
small and maintainable) And next year I'm looking to add more hot
peppers and a cherry tomato.

I seem to recall reading a note from one person that said tomatoes
could be in the same place year after year without issue. However
several problems affect tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and even potatoes,
so unless you have a lot of space dedicated to NOT those four I don't
see how small gardeners can rotate.

I recognized this before I started and one thing I did to maybe
compensate was a lot of interplanting. Lettuce, spinach, radishes,
carrots, onions, garlic, peas, half-dozen herbs & flowers were all
planted in the same beds as T&P. Whether that helps to keep specific
bacteria and disease from building up in the soil... i dunno.
Hopefully I will move before I find out.


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

Well, rotation is to be sure not to promote disease. Tomatoes and peppers are
both solanacea family. I grow those in containers also, but only because I
bring them into the greenhouse in winter and keep the harvest till at least
January or February.

If you start to have diseases pop up, you'll know it and you will then have to
solarize to kill the pathogen or rotate.


On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:58:57 GMT, DigitalVinyl opined:

I've read a lot about rotaing crops/plants and for me it isn't
terribly practical. Tomatoes & peppers cover most of my area so
rotating really can't be done. I only have one large size container
without peppers(7 plants) or tomatoes(3 plants) so unless I grow my
garden considerably rotation really isn't possible. (I've kept it
small and maintainable) And next year I'm looking to add more hot
peppers and a cherry tomato.

I seem to recall reading a note from one person that said tomatoes
could be in the same place year after year without issue. However
several problems affect tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and even potatoes,
so unless you have a lot of space dedicated to NOT those four I don't
see how small gardeners can rotate.

I recognized this before I started and one thing I did to maybe
compensate was a lot of interplanting. Lettuce, spinach, radishes,
carrots, onions, garlic, peas, half-dozen herbs & flowers were all
planted in the same beds as T&P. Whether that helps to keep specific
bacteria and disease from building up in the soil... i dunno.
Hopefully I will move before I find out.


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:58:57 GMT, DigitalVinyl
wrote:

I've read a lot about rotaing crops/plants and for me it isn't
terribly practical. Tomatoes & peppers cover most of my area so
rotating really can't be done. I only have one large size container
without peppers(7 plants) or tomatoes(3 plants) so unless I grow my
garden considerably rotation really isn't possible. (I've kept it
small and maintainable) And next year I'm looking to add more hot
peppers and a cherry tomato.

Rotation is mainly used to reduce disease transmission. If your plants
are OK this year, there's not much reason to have to rotate for the
next. Home gardeners grow the same things in the same places for
years. If you *do* have a disease problem, it would be wise to not
plant the same thing in the same place.

Frogleg wrote:

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:58:57 GMT, DigitalVinyl
wrote:

I've read a lot about rotaing crops/plants and for me it isn't
terribly practical. Tomatoes & peppers cover most of my area so
rotating really can't be done. I only have one large size container
without peppers(7 plants) or tomatoes(3 plants) so unless I grow my
garden considerably rotation really isn't possible. (I've kept it
small and maintainable) And next year I'm looking to add more hot
peppers and a cherry tomato.

Rotation is mainly used to reduce disease transmission. If your plants
are OK this year, there's not much reason to have to rotate for the
next. Home gardeners grow the same things in the same places for
years. If you *do* have a disease problem, it would be wise to not
plant the same thing in the same place.

Well, one of my containers was hit by what I believe was Vermicilium
Wilt. I've steadily nursed the plant but the wilt continues to
steadily defoliate it--It is nearly naked except for top growth. I've
harvested 12 tomatoes (slighlty smaller than expected) and another 12
one the way. I'm going to grow brocolli and some small interplantings
there next year.

My potato plant also had characteristic V-shape yellowing on leaves
and one branch completely defoliated. This looked like VW as well.

In my large patch of ground I one tomato bush is convered with black
intervenial patches. I've never ID'd what this is. I guess maybe some
kinda blight. Don't know if this should be rotated--which would a
shame. Perfect spot.
http://members.aol.com/digitalvinyl66/tomatospots.jpg
It has steadily progressed from the bottom up and covers just about
the entire five and a half foot plant. However it didn't seem to hurt
production. I've harvested 4 dozen 1/4lb plums and I've got a dozen or
more still growing.


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

Wouldn't it be wonderful to put them all on a giant "Lazy Susan" so you can
have fun rotating them all day long? HeHe!

It is best not to grow a particular crop in the same plant family in the
same spot the next year so that insect pests and diseases don't get
established.


DigitalVinyl wrote in message
...
I've read a lot about rotaing crops/plants and for me it isn't
terribly practical. Tomatoes & peppers cover most of my area so
rotating really can't be done. I only have one large size container
without peppers(7 plants) or tomatoes(3 plants) so unless I grow my
garden considerably rotation really isn't possible. (I've kept it
small and maintainable) And next year I'm looking to add more hot
peppers and a cherry tomato.

I seem to recall reading a note from one person that said tomatoes
could be in the same place year after year without issue. However
several problems affect tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and even potatoes,
so unless you have a lot of space dedicated to NOT those four I don't
see how small gardeners can rotate.

I recognized this before I started and one thing I did to maybe
compensate was a lot of interplanting. Lettuce, spinach, radishes,
carrots, onions, garlic, peas, half-dozen herbs & flowers were all
planted in the same beds as T&P. Whether that helps to keep specific
bacteria and disease from building up in the soil... i dunno.
Hopefully I will move before I find out.


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:16:37 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12-"
wrote:

It is best not to grow a particular crop in the same plant family in the
same spot the next year so that insect pests and diseases don't get
established.

Better, yes. But many people don't have the space to change planting
patterns each season, or perhaps they only grow tomatoes in their back
yard garden. Of course if there *is* a disease problem, identifying
exactly what it is, getting rid of the diseased plants, and doing
whatever's required to prevent the same thing from happening again,
including rotation and resistant-type plants, is important. As for
insect pests, I doubt a tomato (tobacco) hornworm is going to be
fooled if the tomato plants move 20' away. :-) The situation may be
quite different for industrial/commercial production, or even a small
farm, but for back yard gardens, choices are fewer.

The person was speaking hypothetically and did not specify the size of the
growing area, you obsessive fusspot.

Most mature insects are attracted by the scent of the plants (not their
location) to lay their eggs. However, the larvae will emerge from the pupae
in the same location they overwinter.


Frogleg wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:16:37 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12-"
wrote:

It is best not to grow a particular crop in the same plant family in the
same spot the next year so that insect pests and diseases don't get
established.

Better, yes. But many people don't have the space to change planting
patterns each season, or perhaps they only grow tomatoes in their back
yard garden. Of course if there *is* a disease problem, identifying
exactly what it is, getting rid of the diseased plants, and doing
whatever's required to prevent the same thing from happening again,
including rotation and resistant-type plants, is important. As for
insect pests, I doubt a tomato (tobacco) hornworm is going to be
fooled if the tomato plants move 20' away. :-) The situation may be
quite different for industrial/commercial production, or even a small
farm, but for back yard gardens, choices are fewer.

"Cereoid-UR12-" wrote:

The person was speaking hypothetically and did not specify the size of the
growing area, you obsessive fusspot.

Well actually I wasn't speaking hypothetically and I did mention the
size ("I've kept it small and maintainable") and I did mention I only
had one large container that did not contain a pepper/tomato family.
Common sense would not lead many to believe I had a vast garden,
unless I was a commercial tomato/pepper farmer and...would I even be
here asking such a question?

I would think that due to Solanaceae's popularity many people would
have issues rotaing properly for the home gardeners. I've read you
should skip a plot for two years, which means Solanaceae can only
account for 1/3 of your space. If I had to expand the garden to 3x the
size of my tomatoes, peppers, potatoes & eggplant--it would be
considerable.

Most mature insects are attracted by the scent of the plants (not their
location) to lay their eggs. However, the larvae will emerge from the pupae
in the same location they overwinter.
I also question the "wisdom" of plots next to eachother. If soil
overwinters bacteria and insects, being right next to last year's
sq.ft. of tomatoes seems just as bad as being in the same plot. We all
till and rake the soil around-not to mention what earthworms are
spreading. Like Frogleg, I wonder if being 15' away is really going to
make a difference come next spring for insects. I was actually going
to post a similar conclusion the other day.

Frogleg wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:16:37 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12-"
wrote:

It is best not to grow a particular crop in the same plant family in the
same spot the next year so that insect pests and diseases don't get
established.

Better, yes. But many people don't have the space to change planting
patterns each season, or perhaps they only grow tomatoes in their back
yard garden. Of course if there *is* a disease problem, identifying
exactly what it is, getting rid of the diseased plants, and doing
whatever's required to prevent the same thing from happening again,
including rotation and resistant-type plants, is important. As for
insect pests, I doubt a tomato (tobacco) hornworm is going to be
fooled if the tomato plants move 20' away. :-) The situation may be
quite different for industrial/commercial production, or even a small
farm, but for back yard gardens, choices are fewer.


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:35:43 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12-"
wrote:

The person was speaking hypothetically and did not specify the size of the
growing area, you obsessive fusspot.


^_^ Of all the epithets hurled at newsgroup posters, I find
"obsessive fusspot" both literate and appropriate. Being correctly
described, I must point out that the OP *did* specify the size of his
garden plot, and rhat I'd also viewed photos of his garden situation.
He wasn't speaking hypothetically, but of actual conditions in his
garden.

How would *you* like to be called a cantankerous and knowledgable
teddybear, Cereoid? :-)

Glorioski!

I have been called cantankerous, knowledgeable and a teddybear, but not
necessarily all at the same time and not while rotating plants!!

Frogleg wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:35:43 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12-"
wrote:

The person was speaking hypothetically and did not specify the size of
the
growing area, you obsessive fusspot.


^_^ Of all the epithets hurled at newsgroup posters, I find
"obsessive fusspot" both literate and appropriate. Being correctly
described, I must point out that the OP *did* specify the size of his
garden plot, and rhat I'd also viewed photos of his garden situation.
He wasn't speaking hypothetically, but of actual conditions in his
garden.

How would *you* like to be called a cantankerous and knowledgable
teddybear, Cereoid? :-)

DigitalVinyl wrote in message . ..
I've read a lot about rotaing crops/plants and for me it isn't
terribly practical. Tomatoes & peppers cover most of my area so
rotating really can't be done. I only have one large size container
without peppers(7 plants) or tomatoes(3 plants) so unless I grow my
garden considerably rotation really isn't possible. (I've kept it
small and maintainable) And next year I'm looking to add more hot
peppers and a cherry tomato.

I seem to recall reading a note from one person that said tomatoes
could be in the same place year after year without issue. However
several problems affect tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and even potatoes,
so unless you have a lot of space dedicated to NOT those four I don't
see how small gardeners can rotate.

I recognized this before I started and one thing I did to maybe
compensate was a lot of interplanting. Lettuce, spinach, radishes,
carrots, onions, garlic, peas, half-dozen herbs & flowers were all
planted in the same beds as T&P. Whether that helps to keep specific
bacteria and disease from building up in the soil... i dunno.
Hopefully I will move before I find out.


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

As frogleg has pointed out, rotation is mostly for disease prevention.
Here in Michigan my tomatoes are virtually free of disease (big, big
difference from Georgia) and they could be planted in the same place
every year. I am guessing coastal NY is more disease prone, milder
winters and wetter growing seasons. One of my neighbours even has a
spot along a fence where cherry tomatoes and lettuce come up year
after year. She only weeds out the weeds every spring.

Coupled to rotation, what you do with your plants in the fall is also
part of the equation. You should either toss them or hotcompost them,
but that is not what I do. Sometimes I put them on the lawn and mow
them, sometimes I put them under the raspberries, and sometimes I put
them on top of my smaller beds where greens are grown, and greens are
totally immune to disease in this corner of the world.

This said, I have my tomatoes on a 3-year rotation, which I will
probably cut down to two starting next year because in the third year
I have them over three beds and that is too messy for my taste. I
could have a much longer rotation but my beds are oriented N-S and I
prefer to use only the back of the beds for the toms.

There is also the issue that different veggies deplete the soil at
different rates for different nutrients. Rotation helps even out the
load on your beds. Cabbage certainly sucks a lot of N out of the soil,
and tomatoes probably a whole lot of K.

In your case you have no choice, so keep doing what you have, make
sure you throw away the plants in the fall, and give them generous
amounts of manure.

(simy1) wrote:

As frogleg has pointed out, rotation is mostly for disease prevention.
Here in Michigan my tomatoes are virtually free of disease (big, big
difference from Georgia) and they could be planted in the same place
every year. I am guessing coastal NY is more disease prone, milder
winters and wetter growing seasons. One of my neighbours even has a
spot along a fence where cherry tomatoes and lettuce come up year
after year. She only weeds out the weeds every spring.

Coupled to rotation, what you do with your plants in the fall is also
part of the equation. You should either toss them or hotcompost them,
but that is not what I do. Sometimes I put them on the lawn and mow
them, sometimes I put them under the raspberries, and sometimes I put
them on top of my smaller beds where greens are grown, and greens are
totally immune to disease in this corner of the world.

This said, I have my tomatoes on a 3-year rotation, which I will
probably cut down to two starting next year because in the third year
I have them over three beds and that is too messy for my taste. I
could have a much longer rotation but my beds are oriented N-S and I
prefer to use only the back of the beds for the toms.

There is also the issue that different veggies deplete the soil at
different rates for different nutrients. Rotation helps even out the
load on your beds. Cabbage certainly sucks a lot of N out of the soil,
and tomatoes probably a whole lot of K.
I interplanted a decent amount (peppers, lettuces, radishes, carrots,
parsley, thyme, onion, garlic plus six types of annual flowers) so I'm
hoping to get a mix of "depletions" into this one soil bed. But
nothing was the size of these tomato vines.

If I convert the grassy slope I may move one or two of the tomatoes
there instead. See if I can replicate the success I had here.
In your case you have no choice, so keep doing what you have, make
sure you throw away the plants in the fall, and give them generous
amounts of manure.
I already purchased composted manure and humus to mix in for the
winter. I wasn't sure what plants to till into the ground. I've got
annuals, tomatoes, carrots, parsely, chives, peppers still growing in
that plot. One tomato plant has something wrong with it,
http://members.aol.com/digitalvinyl66/tomatospots.jpg
while the one next to it is growing straight through the sicker one's
cage. But whatever is wrong with it hasn't hurt it's production (48
toms/12 lbs)


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener