As a guy work by project basic in software development, I got a habit
to scan through all the available information, ... but ignore all the rest
that is not relevant.

Same here, same here.

My English vocabulary are computer line oriented, I know very little
about English in other field. So I may use wrong words.

For what I know, nutrient availability are mainly affect by two
factor:
1. Lost by leaching, erosion(with soil), volatilization(nitrogen)...
2. Fixation/bind with other nitrient.

"Leaching" and "erosion" are not the words that I normally use (I
always need to look up my electronic dictionary for these type of
words). Seem like you are ahead of me in this area.

You can top dress the compost/fertilizer on the mulch, the nutrient
release will bring down to plant root by rain water in liquid
form. But somehow this will also encourage weed grow on top of your
landscape fabric.

I donot and will not use landscape fabric. I do adding new mulch on
top of old mulch to maintain the thickness of mulch.

This is something that I still cannot figure out how to solve -- I
mean I cannot solve it without a lot of effort.

Jay Chan

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
As a guy work by project basic in software development, I got a habit
to scan through all the available information, ... but ignore all the
rest
that is not relevant.

Same here, same here.

My English vocabulary are computer line oriented, I know very little
about English in other field. So I may use wrong words.

For what I know, nutrient availability are mainly affect by two
factor:
1. Lost by leaching, erosion(with soil), volatilization(nitrogen)...
2. Fixation/bind with other nitrient.

"Leaching" and "erosion" are not the words that I normally use (I
always need to look up my electronic dictionary for these type of
words). Seem like you are ahead of me in this area.

You can top dress the compost/fertilizer on the mulch, the nutrient
release will bring down to plant root by rain water in liquid
form. But somehow this will also encourage weed grow on top of your
landscape fabric.

I donot and will not use landscape fabric. I do adding new mulch on
top of old mulch to maintain the thickness of mulch.

This is something that I still cannot figure out how to solve -- I
mean I cannot solve it without a lot of effort.

Jay Chan

Jay, you're making this into too big a problem. As I mentioned before, get
the right tools and weeding can be a pleasure. You can do it with a beer in
one hand.

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
As a guy work by project basic in software development, I got a
habit
to scan through all the available information, ... but ignore all
the rest
that is not relevant.

Same here, same here.

Are you also a software developer? In what type of environment? End
user or vendor? Application development or system programming?

"Leaching" and "erosion" are not the words that I normally use (I
always need to look up my electronic dictionary for these type of
words). Seem like you are ahead of me in this area.

Agriculture are the second best of my English vocabulary, but far from
computer. :-)

You can top dress the compost/fertilizer on the mulch, the
nutrient
release will bring down to plant root by rain water in liquid
form. But somehow this will also encourage weed grow on top of
your
landscape fabric.

I donot and will not use landscape fabric. I do adding new mulch
on
top of old mulch to maintain the thickness of mulch.

This is something that I still cannot figure out how to solve -- I
mean I cannot solve it without a lot of effort.

No single solution will fit all the problem. The way you choose will
depend on your plan in mind and your current situation.

If your garden are small, hand weeding may be the best route for you
as what Doug Kanter suggested.

I'm going to large scale but without heavy machinary after the initial
grading and soil buildup, so I choose mulch.

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

(Jay Chan) wrote in
m:

I'm using large pine bark nuggets and haven't noticed a problem with
that. What kind of mulch are you using?

I use shredded cedar chips mulch. Seem like large nuggets that you use
work better than shredder chips because they last longer. I even found
two groups of termintes in the shredder cedar chips after I had put
them in the flower garden for just two years. This is one of the
reason why I want to remove the mulch (but I keep delaying doing this
for one thing or the others). I probably need to remove them and put
them in a compost pile (that I should have done one year ago).

Do you think termintes will bother large pine bark nuggets? How long
do you think the large nuggets will remain effective in keeping
termintes out?

I haven't the slightest idea. I didn't know termites would eat or live
in cedar (or I could be thinking of something else). I did find some
termites in a buried tree stump far behind the house, but haven't seen
any in the mulch. [Dumb question: are you sure they are termites?]

I used large pine bark nuggets because they are relatively heavy (so wind
doesn't blow them away as much), large (so they don't slip through cracks
in the fabric), have less surface area (compared to equivalent volume of
other mulch) and most importantly, they were on sale. As far as pests,
I've seen slugs underneath wet nuggets, so you may reconsider if you grow
stuff that slugs like to eat. They don't seem to bother my plants.

I don't add stuff to my flower bed, but I guess you could make more
flaps next to your plants and stick stuff in a pile under them. If
you're feeling the need to mix things in, well that's another story.

Sooner or later, you will need to put amendment to the soil, right?
How do you get away from doing this?

Come to think of it, I did dig a hole next to a rose bush and buried a
couple of banana peels (potassium, etc) down there. I'm not really into
growing flowers, so if I needed a specific amendment, I probably wouldn't
know it. When I put in the bed, it was overgrown with all sorts of
stuff, but I just covered it with landscape fabric, so quite possibly
that old stuff has been serving as compost (or slug food) for the last
few years. I'm pretty happy as long as the flower bed doesn't look like
the ditch next to the road and I don't have to weed it constantly.

If you are insane, you can bury a gradually perforated pipe under the
bed. When you want to fertilize, drop your fertilizer down an access
tube and flush it in with water. Check out tips on using prefabricated
perforated drainage pipes to abate soil clogging. However, some of those
methods (drain sock) may or may not prevent your fertilizer from getting
out.

Are you also a software developer? In what type of environment? End
user or vendor? Application development or system programming?

I develop applications for our company -- mainly support the
production line operation.

If your garden are small, hand weeding may be the best route for you
as what Doug Kanter suggested.

My garden is small; but my time allocated to gardening is even
smaller... I will try the hand weeder tools that Doug Kanter has
suggested. They sound promising.

I'm going to large scale but without heavy machinary after the initial
grading and soil buildup, so I choose mulch.

Good luck with whatever way that you choose for your garden.

Jay Chan

Cape cod weeder:
www.seedsofchange.com

It looks promising. But it is only 18" that seems like too short for
me.

www.smithandhawken.com ... Precision Weeder hand tool ... Long-Handled
Weeder.

The long handle version looks very good. Then, I can stand outside or
just inside the flower bed and remove weeds deep inside the flower
bed. My flower bed is almost 6-ft wide; therefore, a long handle
should come in handy. I probably will give it a try instead of using
chemical weed killer.

I am not so sure whether I will try the short version. I cannot see
myself walking around carrying two weeding tools.

I assume I am supposed to use this tool likes this:
- Place the blade over the weed and dig under it.
- Pull the blade toward myself; this action will cut the root of the
weed.
- Leave the weed where it falls and let it decompose.

I have two questions:

- Do you think I can use this tool in area where there are a lot of
weeds? Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)
with many weeds very quickly? Here, the area is still have around
1-inch of mulch left.

- Will it work if the area is already covered with landscape fabric
under the mulch? Will I be cutting through the landscape fabric? No
big loss; I don't like the landscape fabric anyway.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

Good luck with whatever way that you choose for your garden.

Thanks! :-)

I intend to setup a community, the food raise are use for support the
community. I don't know should call it as garden or farm. g

Cheers,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

(Jay Chan) wrote in news:c7e5acb2.0406301900.3b46b741
@posting.google.com:


- Will it work if the area is already covered with landscape fabric
under the mulch? Will I be cutting through the landscape fabric? No
big loss; I don't like the landscape fabric anyway.

If you don't want the landscape fabric, you should take it out while it is
still relatively whole.

If you find a weed* growing through your fabric that can't be easily picked
off by hand, there's something wrong with your fabric. (Perhaps you
installed the wrong side up?)

*except pointy bladed onion things or similar that come up from below

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
Cape cod weeder:
www.seedsofchange.com

It looks promising. But it is only 18" that seems like too short for
me.

www.smithandhawken.com ... Precision Weeder hand tool ... Long-Handled
Weeder.

The long handle version looks very good. Then, I can stand outside or
just inside the flower bed and remove weeds deep inside the flower
bed. My flower bed is almost 6-ft wide; therefore, a long handle
should come in handy. I probably will give it a try instead of using
chemical weed killer.

Standing outside the bed is good because you won't constantly compress the
soil with your weight. The long tool contributes to this good practice. But,
if there's a spot you can't reach, buy just one piece of flagstone or some
such thing and locate it so you can step into the middle.


I am not so sure whether I will try the short version. I cannot see
myself walking around carrying two weeding tools.

Jay....be serious. Put down one tool and pick up the other. Or, go to Home
Depot & buy a large paint bucket for three bucks, and on of those canvas
things that hangs in the bucket and has slots for tools. I think it's called
a Bucketmouth, although there are other brands, too.



I assume I am supposed to use this tool likes this:
- Place the blade over the weed and dig under it.
- Pull the blade toward myself; this action will cut the root of the
weed.
- Leave the weed where it falls and let it decompose.

Correct. You glide the tool about 1" beneath the surface. But, you have to
get to know the root systems of your flowers, or you could slice them, too.
Very rare occurrence. Just stay a few inches away from the stems. As far as
leaving the weeds to decompose, do that with some, but not those which have
already developed flowers or seeds.

BUT: Keep in mind that this is NOT the tool to use for a garden which is an
utter disaster, especially if it's full of weeds with very tough or woody
stems. This tools is designed for working in a garden which has been
properly put in shape - after the big Spring cleanup.

Another tool: Go to the Smith & Hawken site I provided for you earlier. Go
to Tools, Digging & Cultivation, and look at the Gardenia hand rake. See the
orange handle? It's got a knob so you can remove the short handle and
replace it with a long one, so you can work standing up. Gardenia makes an
entire system of such tools. Memorize the colors and visit some local garden
stores, or call around first. Get the little rake and the long handle. Now,
you have the best tool in the world for removing lose stuff from between
tightly spaced plants.

My neighbors sometimes joke about how my raised vegetable beds look like
freshly dug graves. If anyone tried to make off with my Gardenia tools (and
a few others), the graves would not seem like a joke afterward. :-) These
are really great tools.



I have two questions:

- Do you think I can use this tool in area where there are a lot of
weeds? Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)
with many weeds very quickly? Here, the area is still have around
1-inch of mulch left.

I used this tool to manage a 25x8 vegetable garden. No problem. Keep in mind
that as the season progresses and your flowers get bigger, they should shade
out many of the weeds, so the job should get easier. And, some weeds really
don't matter anyway.


- Will it work if the area is already covered with landscape fabric
under the mulch? Will I be cutting through the landscape fabric? No
big loss; I don't like the landscape fabric anyway.

I've only handled landscape fabric in the store, but never used it. So, my
instinct would be to get down on hands & knees with a razor knife and remove
the fabric first. Otherwise, any tool might snag the fabric, pull it
sideways, and break the stems of tender plants.

In one of his newspaper columns, garden writer Henry Mitchell mentioned how
funny it is when people go to Europe, visit famous gardens like those at
Versailles, and comment about what amazing work the French kings had done
for them 300 years ago. They forget the fact that the beautiful garden
they're seeing is the result of just one thing: The work done yesterday. It
sounds to me like you're trying to create a situation that cannot exist: a
garden which needs no maintenance. If you want it to be beautiful, it'll
require a little time each week. And if you make it beautiful, it'll be a
pleasure to do the work.

The best you can hope for is this: Once or twice each season, you'll have to
do major work, probably on your knees, getting the garden as clean as you
can. Get to know which weeds appear at what time of year, and manage them
accordingly. Those with seeds & flowers, you hack away and remove completely
from the garden. The leafy ones can be left on the surface. In the summer
heat, they'll be shriveled up within an hour. Some weeds look innocent on
Monday and develop roots of steel by Friday. Get to know those, so when you
see them on Monday, you don't say "I'll deal with it on Friday". If you do
the hard work correctly, the rest of the season should be easy. And, if you
do things right, each year should become easier. After 20 years in the same
vegetable garden, mine was virtually effortless.

Come to think of it, I did dig a hole next to a rose bush and buried a
couple of banana peels (potassium, etc) down there. I'm not really into
growing flowers, so if I needed a specific amendment, I probably wouldn't
know it.

Seem like you don't need to add any amendment to your garden yet.

Seem like if we need to add amendment to the soil where it is covered
in landscape fabric, we will have to open/remove the landscape fabric
partially or completely. This sounds like something that we need to
schedule it in advance (such as a plan like "I may need to remove the
landscape fabric after x years if a soil test indicates that the soil
is lack of something, and then I can put the landscape fabric back").

I am sure that this can be done. I just didn't think of this when I
put the landscape fabrics to my flower garden a couple years ago.
Without knowing this in advance and making a committment to do this, I
am now kind of surprised by the idea of removing and putting back the
landscape fabrics.

Honestly, I don't really have any better idea either. If I don't put
mulch on it, I will have to deal with a lot more weeds, and I may have
a hard time to remove weeds if they have formed solid root into the
soil. If I put mulch without landscape fabrics, the mulch will be
mixed with soil, and I will still need to deal with more weeds. If I
put mulch and landscape fabrics, I will have to remove/open landscape
fabrics to add amendment. Seem like I am better off sticking with
making as little change as possible; this means I should remove the
mulch that is infected with termintes (this is the minimum that I
should do), leave the landscape fabric there, and put fresh new mulch
(probably the kind that you use). Also order a long handle weeder to
remove weeds that manage to grow among the mulch. And worry about
adding amendment later.

This sounds like a plan.

Jay Chan

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
Come to think of it, I did dig a hole next to a rose bush and buried a
couple of banana peels (potassium, etc) down there. I'm not really into
growing flowers, so if I needed a specific amendment, I probably
wouldn't
know it.

Seem like you don't need to add any amendment to your garden yet.

Seem like if we need to add amendment to the soil where it is covered
in landscape fabric, we will have to open/remove the landscape fabric
partially or completely. This sounds like something that we need to
schedule it in advance (such as a plan like "I may need to remove the
landscape fabric after x years if a soil test indicates that the soil
is lack of something, and then I can put the landscape fabric back").

I am sure that this can be done. I just didn't think of this when I
put the landscape fabrics to my flower garden a couple years ago.
Without knowing this in advance and making a committment to do this, I
am now kind of surprised by the idea of removing and putting back the
landscape fabrics.

Honestly, I don't really have any better idea either. If I don't put
mulch on it, I will have to deal with a lot more weeds, and I may have
a hard time to remove weeds if they have formed solid root into the
soil. If I put mulch without landscape fabrics, the mulch will be
mixed with soil, and I will still need to deal with more weeds. If I
put mulch and landscape fabrics, I will have to remove/open landscape
fabrics to add amendment. Seem like I am better off sticking with
making as little change as possible; this means I should remove the
mulch that is infected with termintes (this is the minimum that I
should do), leave the landscape fabric there, and put fresh new mulch
(probably the kind that you use). Also order a long handle weeder to
remove weeds that manage to grow among the mulch. And worry about
adding amendment later.

This sounds like a plan.

If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper
for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........ lazy
gardening.

Lasagna Gardening
http://www.motherearthnews.com/menar...173-050-01.htm

"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
news
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

Moreover, I become less and less like to use landscape fabrics (and
mulch) because it prevents me from easily adding fertilizer or other
goodies directly to the soil. Seem like the only way to add
fertilizer is using liquid fertilizer.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

Your last paragraph is exactly right. Gimmicks get in the way
eventually. So:

Get yourself a good weeding tool that allows you to do the job WITHOUT
KNEELING. With the right tool, it's effortless. And, weeding slows you
down long enough to notice things happening (good or bad) in the
garden. The trick is to make the whole thing easy.

I have used one of these for several yrs. It very effective and pretty
effortless.

http://www.hound-dog.com/weed_hound.htm


Tyler

If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper
for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........ lazy
gardening.

The landscape fabric is already there. I installed it a couple years
ago. I would have to remove the landscape fabric and replace it with
newspaper if I followed your advice. That would be more work for me
not less.

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

Jay Chan

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper
for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........
lazy
gardening.

The landscape fabric is already there. I installed it a couple years
ago. I would have to remove the landscape fabric and replace it with
newspaper if I followed your advice. That would be more work for me
not less.

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

Jay Chan

Newspaper will decompose gradually, and if you want to add solid
"amendments", like compost, before the newspaper breaks down completely, all
you have to do is poke holes in it with your garden fork.

Jay, I'm curious about two things:

1) In any given week, how many hours of work do you think is appropriate to
keep your garden in shape?

2) During the "special weeks", at the beginning & end of season, how many
hours of work do you expect?

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question,
people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't
know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. g So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper
instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble
of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason
of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to
understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

HTH,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m