What exactly is good soil? I used to know, then I have heard too many
answers to this question to think that I know any more.

In particular, I am talking about a soil that is natively clay, in
zone 4 or 5, used for flowers (both annuals and perennials).

Some people say, ADD SAND. Other people say, No, if you add sand,
you'll just lock up the clay and make "concrete" out of it.

Some people say, ADD COMPOST. Other people say, No, if you add
compost, you'll lower the pH too far.

And similarly for adding manure, Miracle-Gro, lime, bark, lawn
clippings, dry leaves, etc etc etc.

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?

Thank you very much!

Ted Shoemaker

"Ted Shoemaker" wrote in message
m...
What exactly is good soil? I used to know, then I have heard too many
answers to this question to think that I know any more.

In particular, I am talking about a soil that is natively clay, in
zone 4 or 5, used for flowers (both annuals and perennials).

Some people say, ADD SAND. Other people say, No, if you add sand,
you'll just lock up the clay and make "concrete" out of it.

Some people say, ADD COMPOST. Other people say, No, if you add
compost, you'll lower the pH too far.

And similarly for adding manure, Miracle-Gro, lime, bark, lawn
clippings, dry leaves, etc etc etc.

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?


Good soil is largely dependent on the kind of plants that you hope will grow
on it. A good balance of compost, sand, clay, gypsum, bark, lawn clippings,
etc makes good soil for general gardening needs.

Miracle-Gro is good, if you use it with an understanding of what it is.
Think of Miracle-gro as the plant world of a candy bar, gets the plant some
fast quick energy but not great for the plant in the long run, because it
doesn't provide nutrients for the microfauna in the soil.

Snooze

Ted Shoemaker wrote:
What exactly is good soil?

Before you can answer that question, you need to define what it's
suposed to be good for!

Good soil for building on? Good soil for acid-loving plants? Good soil
for a lawn? Good soil for containers? Good soil for a bog? What you
intend to use the soil for dictates what qualities are desired.

Now if you're just trying to make a generally loamy soil out of
something with a lot of clay, the folks that say don't add sand are
right. Adding sand to clay may help the soil drain better, but think
about what happens when you let clay out to dry. It becomes hard. And
once it becomes hard, then it's just not going to soak-up much water.
But if that's what you want....

Compost tends to eventually become neutral ph in nature. If you add it
to a soil with high ph, yes, it will eventually lower the ph, but if you
add it to soil with low ph, it'll eventually raise the ph. Of course
we're talking long-term changes. But again, if that's what you want...

Adding fresh (not composted) manure, bark, clippings, dry leaves, etc.
essentially turns the area into a compost bin. Non-decomposed organic
material will tend to pull nitrogen to aid in the decomposition.
Eventually you'll end up in the same place you would have if you had
waited for everything to compost first. Each fall I do this to my
vegetable garden by piling shredded leaves on it, and tilling them in.

Adding more potent stuff to soil, such as fertilizer, lime, sulfur, bone
meal, blood meal, etc. may be something you would want to do to adjust
for deficiencies in the soil. Generally they won't change the texture or
drainage, so in a week or two, a handful of the soil is going to look
and feel about the same as it did before you added these things. Whether
they're needed or not is something that can't be generalized, and can
only be determined by soil testing. And again, part of that answer is
going to depend on what it is you want the soil to be good for.

So "good soil" can't be defined until you define what you want it to be
good for.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: What does a new kitchen need?
http://www.holzemville.com/community...hen/index.html

"Ted Shoemaker" wrote in message
m...
What exactly is good soil? I used to know, then I have heard too many
answers to this question to think that I know any more.

In particular, I am talking about a soil that is natively clay, in
zone 4 or 5, used for flowers (both annuals and perennials).

Some people say, ADD SAND. Other people say, No, if you add sand,
you'll just lock up the clay and make "concrete" out of it.

Some people say, ADD COMPOST. Other people say, No, if you add
compost, you'll lower the pH too far.

And similarly for adding manure, Miracle-Gro, lime, bark, lawn
clippings, dry leaves, etc etc etc.

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?

Thank you very much!

Ted Shoemaker

Good soil for the majority of plants is one that is neutral to slightly
acidic in pH, well draining but moisture retentive with a moderate organic
matter content and and a healthy population of soil organisms. The best way
to lighten heavy clay soils is with organic matter and the best organic
matter is well aged compost. Compost is virtually neutral as far as pH is
concerned and nearly all soils will have a buffering capacity that will
resist substantially changing the pH anyway. Clay soils have a very high
buffering capacity.

You can lighten heavy soils with gypsum or coarse sand but you will need a
lot. And the sand must be coarse. Too little sand or too small a particle
can contribute to the 'concrete' effect. And neither contribute organic
matter, which promotes the populations of soil organisms that assist the
plants in metabolising the nutrients in the soil they need to be healthy.

Miracle Gro is a fertilizer. It does nothing to improve the quality or
structure of soil and can result in a build up of fertilizer salts if used
excessively (as will any chemical fertilizer).

Lime is a de-acidifier used to 'sweeten' very acidic soils. Since the
greatest majority of plants prefer a soil that is slightly acidic, unless
your soil has a very low pH, adding lime is typically not necessary unless
you are growing plants which require neutral or slightly alkaline conditions
(like a number of veggies). The exception are lawns, which grow best in
nearly neutral soils and lime will help to deter the development of moss in
lawns also.

Bark, lawn clippings and leaves can be used as mulches or can be
incorporated into the soil to add organic matter or can be added as raw
ingredients to the composting process.

Very few of us have the benefit of a "good" soil to begin with - it takes
time and continual amending with organic matter to achieve what is
considered ideal - a loose, friable soil with varied texture and high
fertility.

pam - gardengal

If you faithfully added well-composted cow manure (an inch or so every
single year) and lightly raked it in to the top of your existing soil, over
time (say in 3 or 4 years), you'd have a lovely soil that would enable most
of the annuals and perennials that do well in zones 4 and 5 to thrive quite
well. Depending on where you live, earthworms will do a lot of the work for
you, because they will tunnel through the soil and the compost
redistributing it more evenly. Even though aged manure is relatively low in
nitrogen relative to fresh, it still adds more than most commmercial
composts, which are heavy on forest products (shredded bark and sawdust
primarily). I say to rake it in, because sometimes compost will sort of
clump on the top of the soil, absorbing most of the water, and therefore
acting a bit like mulch instead of a soil amendment.
"Ted Shoemaker" wrote in message
m...
What exactly is good soil? I used to know, then I have heard too many
answers to this question to think that I know any more.

In particular, I am talking about a soil that is natively clay, in
zone 4 or 5, used for flowers (both annuals and perennials).

Some people say, ADD SAND. Other people say, No, if you add sand,
you'll just lock up the clay and make "concrete" out of it.

Some people say, ADD COMPOST. Other people say, No, if you add
compost, you'll lower the pH too far.

And similarly for adding manure, Miracle-Gro, lime, bark, lawn
clippings, dry leaves, etc etc etc.

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?

Thank you very much!

Ted Shoemaker

"Ted Shoemaker" wrote in message
m...
What exactly is good soil? I used to know, then I have heard too many
answers to this question to think that I know any more.

In particular, I am talking about a soil that is natively clay, in
zone 4 or 5, used for flowers (both annuals and perennials).

Some people say, ADD SAND. Other people say, No, if you add sand,
you'll just lock up the clay and make "concrete" out of it.

Some people say, ADD COMPOST. Other people say, No, if you add
compost, you'll lower the pH too far.

And similarly for adding manure, Miracle-Gro, lime, bark, lawn
clippings, dry leaves, etc etc etc.

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?

Thank you very much!

Ted Shoemaker

(Ted Shoemaker) wrote in message om...

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?


good soil (for lawns, vegetable gardens, and 90% of ornamentals) is
something that has gone through an earthworm 3 or 4 times. so just add
worm food and make it comfortable for them to live in there, and wait
maybe 3 years. To add depth to your clayish good soil, use green
manures with deep roots (the roots form vertical channels when the
plant dies).

(Ted Shoemaker) wrote in message om...

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?


good soil (for lawns, vegetable gardens, and 90% of ornamentals) is
something that has gone through an earthworm 3 or 4 times. so just add
worm food and make it comfortable for them to live in there, and wait
maybe 3 years. To add depth to your clayish good soil, use green
manures with deep roots (the roots form vertical channels when the
plant dies).

HI

There is nothing wrong with a clay loam soil. IT needs compost or
peat moss for aeration. The pH may drop, but you need 75% compost and
that is just not possible.

Don't add sand as it DOES RUIN A CLAY SOIL. iT IS A NON FRIABLE SOIL.

If you add llawn clippings or leaves feed the soil with a high
nitrogen soil. This will feed the bacteriums that decompose the
Organic Matter.

Derryl Killan
Horticulturalistt
Calgary Zone 3 A



What exactly is good soil? I used to know, then I have heard too many
answers to this question to think that I know any more.

In particular, I am talking about a soil that is natively clay, in
zone 4 or 5, used for flowers (both annuals and perennials).

Some people say, ADD SAND. Other people say, No, if you add sand,
you'll just lock up the clay and make "concrete" out of it.

Some people say, ADD COMPOST. Other people say, No, if you add
compost, you'll lower the pH too far.

And similarly for adding manure, Miracle-Gro, lime, bark, lawn
clippings, dry leaves, etc etc etc.

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?

Thank you very much!

Ted Shoemaker

If you add llawn clippings or leaves feed the soil with a high
nitrogen soil. This will feed the bacteriums that decompose the
Organic Matter.

Lawn clippings tend to be rather high in nitrogen as far as non-composted
material goes - about 54.7 lbs per ton compared to a high of 31 lbs/T for
unprocessed chicken manure. That's why mulching mowers are recommended to
reduce fertilizing needs on lawns. Leaves offer considerably less, but still
an appreciable amount. There is absolutely no need to add nitrogen
fertilizers to hasten decomposition if using uncomposted grass clippings or
leaves to amend your soil. Nitrogen fertilizers do not feed soil organisms -
they get all the nutrients they need by processing the organic matter (as
well as other organisms) and in return, release nitrogen in a form that can
be metabolized by the plants.

And as an FYI, bacteria is the plural of bacterium (no 's').

Horticulturalistt (??)

Ted, it still looks like you're getting too many disparate answers to your
question :-( You might want to investigate the Soil Biology Primer, a good,
basic introduction to soil quality, fertility, tilth and the biomass that
lives within it.
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/soil_quali...gy_primer.html

pam - gardengal

The primary characteristic of good soil is that it drains well and has
enough pore space to allow air to penetrate. Otherwise despite good
fertillity the plant roots will die.
Nothing wrong with clay soil, number one rule is not to work it when
it's wet.

"Pam - gardengal" wrote in message news:hz37d.182719$3l3.98268@attbi_s03...

Ted, it still looks like you're getting too many disparate answers to your
question :-(

Yeah, like I said . . . I used to know what's going on, or at least I
thought so, until I asked 3 people and got 5 opinions.

Diversity of opinion is a good thing. I'm not complaining about
everyone's contributions. I've just got to figure it out.

You might want to investigate the Soil Biology Primer, a good,
basic introduction to soil quality, fertility, tilth and the biomass that
lives within it.
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/soil_quali...gy_primer.html

Good idea. Thank you.

Ted Shoemaker

(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:

What exactly is good soil?

It depends upon the plant. Every plant likes things a little different.
That gives it an advantage over other plants.

Every plant has a pH preference. Some plants like a acid soil others
like neutral or basic soils. Some are tolerant of pH and some are not.

Some plants like a soil rich in nutrients and some like a poor soil
where other plants can't compete. Some plants like water soluable
nutrients, some like organic nutrients and some like mineral nutrient
sources. Some plants need certain nutrients and some need to avoid
certain nutrients. And some plants don't care.

Some plants like sand, some like a rich loam, some like clay, and some
like water. Some like a certain combination of the above and some don't
care..

Some plants like a well drained soil, some like an arrid soil, some like
a most soil, and some like living in wet soil. Some like a combination
of the above and some don't care.

Some plants like a soil rich in microbes and some like a sterile soil.
Some don't care and some are very microbe specific.

So good soil only make sense if you know what is going to be planted.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

I live in red clay country (aka NC). Here's my recipe for a new
garden bed:
Dig up the ground in spring, loosen well. Mix in some peat moss
(about 1/2" to 1" thick when spread on the ground). "Soil
conditioner" made of minced pine bark also works. Put the plants in
and then mulch with about 1" - 2" of pine bark mini-nuggets. As the
mulch degrades (I replace mine each year), the soil is enriched in
humus.

Clay has plenty or nutients in it. I lime the grass, but never the
beds. Some beds are 12 years old and still going strong.

On 29 Sep 2004 12:34:33 -0700, (Ted Shoemaker)
wrote:

What exactly is good soil? I used to know, then I have heard too many
answers to this question to think that I know any more.

In particular, I am talking about a soil that is natively clay, in
zone 4 or 5, used for flowers (both annuals and perennials).

Some people say, ADD SAND. Other people say, No, if you add sand,
you'll just lock up the clay and make "concrete" out of it.

Some people say, ADD COMPOST. Other people say, No, if you add
compost, you'll lower the pH too far.

And similarly for adding manure, Miracle-Gro, lime, bark, lawn
clippings, dry leaves, etc etc etc.

Can somebody who really knows, please settle this?

Thank you very much!

Ted Shoemaker