About 50% of our lot was thick with mostly pine trees under which was
left as a natural area. We just had many of the pines removed leaving
some large open natural areas full of pine needles, leaves and big
mounds of pine mulch from the stump grinding.

We plan to do a lot of landscaping and put in a garden now that we get
enough sunlight to grow more than just mushrooms and moss. But I'm
wondering what the best first step is to convert the natural areas to
productive gardening soil. My wife thinks we should just spread out the
mounds of pine mulch and mix it with the natural debris. But I'm
worried that all the pine needles will leave a soil that is much too
acidic. I'm thinking we should rake up all the pine needles first.

What is the best way to turn a natural area into a gardening area? I
would appreciate any advice or pointers to information about what to do
in a situation like this.

In article .com,
"cd" wrote:

About 50% of our lot was thick with mostly pine trees under which was
left as a natural area. We just had many of the pines removed leaving
some large open natural areas full of pine needles, leaves and big
mounds of pine mulch from the stump grinding.

We plan to do a lot of landscaping and put in a garden now that we get
enough sunlight to grow more than just mushrooms and moss. But I'm
wondering what the best first step is to convert the natural areas to
productive gardening soil. My wife thinks we should just spread out the
mounds of pine mulch and mix it with the natural debris. But I'm
worried that all the pine needles will leave a soil that is much too
acidic. I'm thinking we should rake up all the pine needles first.

What is the best way to turn a natural area into a gardening area? I
would appreciate any advice or pointers to information about what to do
in a situation like this.

Hi cd,
I am by no means an expert but I agree with your assessment that pine
needles & pine tree mulch are an unexciting soil amendment except for
specific plants (carnivorous plants, or maybe acid-lovers like
rhododendron). I'd have a look at what the existing soil is like -- you
could even get it tested at your local Ag extension office. A decent
soil amendment that's usually free from somewhere is composted leaves.
Whether your soil is clay-y or sandy (usually the two choices around
here), composted leaves break up the monotony. If you plan to plant a
vegetable garden, I'd imagine that the plants would benefit from the
addition of some nitrogen to the soil. YOu could even try planting a
cover crop of red clover right now. If it grows, it will add nitrogen to
the soil as it does and it'll add even more when you till it in when the
weather gets warm. If it doesn't grow, you've wasted $3 on seed.

HTH
--
Philip Semanchuk
email: first name @ last name.com

Thanks for the advice Philip. Happy gardening!

On 2007-01-16, cd wrote:
About 50% of our lot was thick with mostly pine trees under which was
left as a natural area. We just had many of the pines removed leaving
some large open natural areas full of pine needles, leaves and big
mounds of pine mulch from the stump grinding.

We plan to do a lot of landscaping and put in a garden now that we get
enough sunlight to grow more than just mushrooms and moss. But I'm
wondering what the best first step is to convert the natural areas to
productive gardening soil. My wife thinks we should just spread out the
mounds of pine mulch and mix it with the natural debris. But I'm
worried that all the pine needles will leave a soil that is much too
acidic. I'm thinking we should rake up all the pine needles first.

What is the best way to turn a natural area into a gardening area? I
would appreciate any advice or pointers to information about what to do
in a situation like this.


Years ago Mother Earth News found out the acidity of the material does
not matter. All orgaanic matter tends to cause a neutral ph in the long
run. Their big discovery was it is just about impossible to add too
much. Just apply double the lime the first year.

While you have the stump, I bet you still have plenty of roots that will
play havoc with a tiller the first year unless you grub them out. But
ya gotta start somewhere.

All the wood chips will be slower to break down than the pine straw.
Add extra nitrogen also as the composting ties it up until the material
is composted.

--
Wes Dukes (wdukes.pobox@com) Swap the . and the @ to email me please.

is a garbage address.

On 2007-01-17, CD wrote:
Thanks for the advice Philip. Happy gardening!



as I posted earlier I have to disagree. The pine straw is free and
after one season you can't tell composted leaves tilled in from
composted needles. The wood chips will be the worse problem. The
runoff from saw mills is bad for fresh sawdust. But you don't have near
that quantity. If you are concerned with acidity, you have that anyway
if you have clay.

--
Wes Dukes (wdukes.pobox@com) Swap the . and the @ to email me please.

is a garbage address.

In article ,
wrote:

On 2007-01-17, CD wrote:
Thanks for the advice Philip. Happy gardening!



as I posted earlier I have to disagree. The pine straw is free and
after one season you can't tell composted leaves tilled in from
composted needles.

Hi Wes,
After our bodies are done composting a meal, all food looks pretty much
the same, right? But obviously that doesn't mean we get the same amount
of nutrients out of everything we eat. Similarly, I would not rely on
visual inspection to judge the value of leaves versus needles versus
anything else as a soil amendment. Just because *we* can't tell the
difference after one season doesn't mean the plants can't.

If you could dig up a reference to the Mother Earth News article you
cite, I'd appreciate that and would like to read it. It surprises me
that the pH balances over time and maybe my intuition about the relative
nutrient value of one amendment versus another is also wrong. If the
article covers that, I'd be happy to adjust my thinking.

Cheers
--
Philip Semanchuk
email: first name @ last name.com

I use alot of pine materials. I see two ways for you to go for
gardening/ landscaping:

1) I would till the material under for the value of the organic matter.
Pine mulch is fine. You're lucky! OM improves any soil immeasurably,
both in structure, moisture-moderation and fertility. It also comes to
buffer pH over time. But your garden will take a while to come into
balance. Here's one reason why:

As the organic material decomposes, it will tie up nitgrogen;
eventually it will release it back to the soil. But that means that
this year individual plants, fruit trees, etc. will benefit from
fertilization. I use the organics such as Plant Tone and Holly Tone,
but working a little 8-8-8 into the soil two weeks before you plant
might offer benefit. If you skip this last step, then I would only
topdress newly planted material with the 8-8-8-, to avoid burning. You
can work the "Tones" in directly with your planting soil, which is one
reason why I prefer it.

Backing up, in your initial tillage, I would apply quite a bit of lime.
To my eye, lime is almost more important than fertilizer, based on the
role it plays in "unlocking' nutrients and allowing them to become
available to plants. Unless you are planting blueberry bushes (which
will thrive at 4.9 ph), be sure to incorporate lime at the "heavy" rate
listed on the bag.

I don't know how it is with clay soil (I'm down here in the acidic,
piney sandhills - I till decomposed pine bark chips into my soil as a
soil conditioner), but I use rock phoshpate as my phosphorus source,
since it becomes available slowly over the years to plants, rather than
runs through. but here I also incorporate my phoshorus in my initial
tillage. (I'm pickier with fertility in my garden area, since I am
growing fresh food to eat, and so want maximum nutrition available to
plants.) Both lime and phosphorus move slowly through the soil - about
1" a year naturally - so in a new area, I make sure to incorporate
those two items at the outset.

After I had my my newly-tilled area, I would submit a soil sample. You
may want to do that initially anyway, for comparison/improvement
purposes, but in my area I have a pretty good feel for what the soil
around here is going to need for vegetable production (I'm a market
gardener). Then based on the results, I would add in what is deficient.
Over time, in this sand, as the phosphorus content builds up, I back
off the middle number and concentrate on N and K, and making sure the
trace minerals are available. I do this through lots of compost, by the
way, and compost is... broken down organic material. ;-)

2) For vegetables, the simplest way might be to build raised beds in
your sunniest area, bring in good soil and compost, already
ph_balanced, and have at it. Use the pine mulch for your walkways, as
weed suppressant. In this case, I suggest the "Square Foot gardening"
book. Google it - there's also a website. I think the author talks
about his soil mix online.

Best of luck!.


On Jan 16, 6:23 am, "cd" wrote:
About 50% of our lot was thick with mostly pine trees under which was
left as a natural area. We just had many of the pines removed leaving
some large open natural areas full of pine needles, leaves and big
mounds of pine mulch from the stump grinding.

We plan to do a lot of landscaping and put in a garden now that we get
enough sunlight to grow more than just mushrooms and moss. But I'm
wondering what the best first step is to convert the natural areas to
productive gardening soil. My wife thinks we should just spread out the
mounds of pine mulch and mix it with the natural debris. But I'm
worried that all the pine needles will leave a soil that is much too
acidic. I'm thinking we should rake up all the pine needles first.

What is the best way to turn a natural area into a gardening area? I
would appreciate any advice or pointers to information about what to do
in a situation like this.

On 2007-01-24, Philip Semanchuk wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On 2007-01-17, CD wrote:
Thanks for the advice Philip. Happy gardening!



as I posted earlier I have to disagree. The pine straw is free and
after one season you can't tell composted leaves tilled in from
composted needles.

Hi Wes,
After our bodies are done composting a meal, all food looks pretty much
the same, right? But obviously that doesn't mean we get the same amount
of nutrients out of everything we eat. Similarly, I would not rely on
visual inspection to judge the value of leaves versus needles versus
anything else as a soil amendment. Just because *we* can't tell the
difference after one season doesn't mean the plants can't.

If you could dig up a reference to the Mother Earth News article you
cite, I'd appreciate that and would like to read it. It surprises me
that the pH balances over time and maybe my intuition about the relative
nutrient value of one amendment versus another is also wrong. If the
article covers that, I'd be happy to adjust my thinking.

Cheers


Well I googled compost and soil ph and found a lot of information but
on compost in general. Peat moss seems to be the best way to make soil
more acid. There were opinions that agreed with you that pine straw is
good for Azaleas and such but little research. This is most likely
because most of us rake the pine straw and leaves together and no one
Has ever funded composting only leaves versus pinestraw.

I did find the following in TMEN on line from 1993 which may have been
what I read.

The ashes of dense hardwoods like oak and hickory are best for
sweetening soil. Apply no more than 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet per
year. If your soil is on the alkaline side, you can lower the pH by
working in sawdust, leaf mold, or peat moss. Because I used lots of
sawdust to improve my soil's humus level, I also added ashes to balance
its pH. Now that I've got plenty of compost, my soil's acidity takes
care of itself, since compost tends to neutralize pH. Despite all the
sawdust, ashes, and compost I've added, my garden's soil still isn't
perfect-but it is well on its way.


http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organ...e_Dirt_on_Dirt

This article did not quote any studies. I thought TMEN had done some
studies when I read what I read, but that is alas gone.

Most sites I checked seemed to agree that adding organic matter tends to
stabilize PH for longer periods of time.

My main point was that removing the pine straw was not going to change
the soil and that the wood chips from stump grinding would be a factor
also. I also said just add more lime and fertilizer to compensate for
the composting. I did find indications that leaf compost was neutral so
adding lime to our NC soils is still necessary.

I also found that the only way to know for sure was to get a soil test
or do one with a kit.

I still think that removing pine straw is wasting good organic matter
and creating more work.

Any "new ground" with uncomposted vegetation added will probably have
short term difficulties for a year or two allows the vegetation to
compost. THe wood will take longer than the straw. Loblolly pine
needles break down faster than long leaf needles. Landscapers like the
long leaf. I got 25 cents a bale for loblolly on the pines I own from a
baler. He said he pays closer to 50 cents for long leaf. Since I have
thinned them, the straw won't be enough for baling now.

So the basic answer is no one seems to know for sure. We do know that
adding any organic matter is good in the long run. So why relocate the
straw just till it in. It ain't producing any vegetables now, and any
compost may affect the harvest for a year or two, but in the long run it
is a good way to get free organic matter that you only have to till in.

--
Wes Dukes (wdukes.pobox@com) Swap the . and the @ to email me please.

is a garbage address.

In article ,
wrote:

On 2007-01-24, Philip Semanchuk wrote:

Hi Wes,
After our bodies are done composting a meal, all food looks pretty much
the same, right? But obviously that doesn't mean we get the same amount
of nutrients out of everything we eat. Similarly, I would not rely on
visual inspection to judge the value of leaves versus needles versus
anything else as a soil amendment. Just because *we* can't tell the
difference after one season doesn't mean the plants can't.

If you could dig up a reference to the Mother Earth News article you
cite, I'd appreciate that and would like to read it. It surprises me
that the pH balances over time and maybe my intuition about the relative
nutrient value of one amendment versus another is also wrong. If the
article covers that, I'd be happy to adjust my thinking.


Well I googled compost and soil ph and found a lot of information but
on compost in general. Peat moss seems to be the best way to make soil
more acid. There were opinions that agreed with you that pine straw is
good for Azaleas and such but little research. This is most likely
because most of us rake the pine straw and leaves together and no one
Has ever funded composting only leaves versus pinestraw.

I did find the following in TMEN on line from 1993 which may have been
what I read.

The ashes of dense hardwoods like oak and hickory are best for
sweetening soil. Apply no more than 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet per
year. If your soil is on the alkaline side, you can lower the pH by
working in sawdust, leaf mold, or peat moss. Because I used lots of
sawdust to improve my soil's humus level, I also added ashes to balance
its pH. Now that I've got plenty of compost, my soil's acidity takes
care of itself, since compost tends to neutralize pH. Despite all the
sawdust, ashes, and compost I've added, my garden's soil still isn't
perfect-but it is well on its way.


http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organ...arch/The_Dirt_
on_Dirt

This article did not quote any studies. I thought TMEN had done some
studies when I read what I read, but that is alas gone.

Most sites I checked seemed to agree that adding organic matter tends to
stabilize PH for longer periods of time.

My main point was that removing the pine straw was not going to change
the soil and that the wood chips from stump grinding would be a factor
also. I also said just add more lime and fertilizer to compensate for
the composting. I did find indications that leaf compost was neutral so
adding lime to our NC soils is still necessary.

I also found that the only way to know for sure was to get a soil test
or do one with a kit.

I still think that removing pine straw is wasting good organic matter
and creating more work.

Any "new ground" with uncomposted vegetation added will probably have
short term difficulties for a year or two allows the vegetation to
compost. THe wood will take longer than the straw. Loblolly pine
needles break down faster than long leaf needles. Landscapers like the
long leaf. I got 25 cents a bale for loblolly on the pines I own from a
baler. He said he pays closer to 50 cents for long leaf. Since I have
thinned them, the straw won't be enough for baling now.

So the basic answer is no one seems to know for sure. We do know that
adding any organic matter is good in the long run. So why relocate the
straw just till it in. It ain't producing any vegetables now, and any
compost may affect the harvest for a year or two, but in the long run it
is a good way to get free organic matter that you only have to till in.

Wes,
Thanks for digging up that article, and for the interesting tip about
Loblolly versus long leaf needles. I agree that any soil amendment will
take a season or two (or three) to blend into the soil so the sooner one
begins to add stuff, the better.

I was able to find this study abstract online which hints at what I'd
like to know, but the study is very specific and, alas, not available
online:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/25l07474j95gn3w3/

However, it did inspire me to try to slip the phrase "present humus
dynamics" into a conversation. It's no wonder I can't get anyone to talk
to me at parties...

Cheers
--
Philip Semanchuk
email: first name @ last name.com

wrote in message
. ..
On 2007-01-24, Philip Semanchuk wrote:
In article ,
wrote:


Well I googled compost and soil ph and found a lot of information
but
on compost in general. Peat moss seems to be the best way to make
soil
more acid. There were opinions that agreed with you that pine straw
is
good for Azaleas and such but little research. This is most likely
because most of us rake the pine straw and leaves together and no
one
Has ever funded composting only leaves versus pinestraw.


WRT peat moss; I would avoid it unless you are planting in sandy well
drained soil or have water loving plants like Hydrangeas. Generally I
have found it retains too much moisture and can cause root rot.