Good evening all,

I posted here about this time last year to see about getting a group together
to guide ourselves through some of Sam's flasks of sanderianum. Unfortunately,
an extended illness and eventual death in the family kept me from proceeding as
planned, but I am now ready to get back to work on this.

Going to order a couple of basic flasks (sukhakulii and maybe the new PEOY or
lowii) in a couple of weeks and do some testing before I do the real deal in
8-10 weeks or so. Hopefully this is where I will figure out if there are any
imminent threats in my apartment to small seedlings (ie fungus or pests) that I
am not currently aware of. And if I am lucky, they will be resolved and I will
have all the more seedlings to consume my living space

In the mean time, would love to hear from others about your success and
obstacles to date. I have saved some of our earlier emails and have been
reading the info again wondering how everyone's game plan worked out-
especially in terms of survival rates in the first few months.

From what I have gathered and prepared from last year- seems I am covered
except on the matter of temperature. I am thinking of getting a small space
heater to run in the apartment right by the shelf to keep around an 80-85
degree range (my apartment runs 68 most of the time.) Any thoughts on that? Has
temperature been a big issue for any of you with these seedlings?

Looking forward to finally joining the struggle!

Take care,

Tom.

I split a flask from Sam w/ a friend. We asked him to ship w/ agar on the
roots. Plants were beautiful when they arrived - big and in excellent
condition. We potted them up in one big compot (agar and all) in seedling
bark mix. My friend was moving fairly soon (and opening an orchid business
) so he only kept them in the compot for a month or 2 then potted them
up. In retrospect, I would have grown them on in the compot much longer...
anyway, we got I think 27 plants. I took 14 and he took 13. I have 12
still alive although one is just hanging on. They're growing well but
slowly - I think they're around 3 inches across max now. I grow them in a
mostly enclosed table w/ 3 levels of plants. each level is 8' x 3' and has
16 4' flourescent tubes... Temp goes down to maybe 65 at night and up to 80
or so in the day from the lights. Humidity ranges from 90-95 at night down
to 75 or so during the day. I water 2x per week and have been experimenting
w/ different fertiliziers and am currently using something suggested by
Antec labs - a Michigan State University formula purchased from Robert's
Flower Supply. It has good quantities of macro nutrients including Mg and
Ca which is lacking in the water here in Seattle (33 ppm of TDS right out of
the tap). So, they're growing well although if they'd stayed in the compot
a bit longer, I think they'd be doing better but who knows. Oh, last bit, I
have REALLY good (maybe too good) airflow in the table - one of those whirl
fans or whatever they're called on each level - top and bottom going to the
right, middle to the left.

Good luck!

ps: just start w/ the Sanders

"Elpaninaro" wrote in message
...
Good evening all,

I posted here about this time last year to see about getting a group
together
to guide ourselves through some of Sam's flasks of sanderianum.
Unfortunately,
an extended illness and eventual death in the family kept me from
proceeding as
planned, but I am now ready to get back to work on this.

Going to order a couple of basic flasks (sukhakulii and maybe the new PEOY
or
lowii) in a couple of weeks and do some testing before I do the real deal
in
8-10 weeks or so. Hopefully this is where I will figure out if there are
any
imminent threats in my apartment to small seedlings (ie fungus or pests)
that I
am not currently aware of. And if I am lucky, they will be resolved and I
will
have all the more seedlings to consume my living space

In the mean time, would love to hear from others about your success and
obstacles to date. I have saved some of our earlier emails and have been
reading the info again wondering how everyone's game plan worked out-
especially in terms of survival rates in the first few months.

From what I have gathered and prepared from last year- seems I am covered
except on the matter of temperature. I am thinking of getting a small
space
heater to run in the apartment right by the shelf to keep around an 80-85
degree range (my apartment runs 68 most of the time.) Any thoughts on
that? Has
temperature been a big issue for any of you with these seedlings?

Looking forward to finally joining the struggle!

Take care,

Tom.

I only recently obtained my flask of sanderianum. I must say there were
several extremely large plants (6"ls) in addition to the usual size ones
and the tiny ones always present clinging to the base of the larger
seedlings. I have put it in the mix last year's flask compots loved. I
pot them all together as they come out of the flask in a mix of fine
bark, sponge rock and promix. It was an experiment last year, but the
seedlings really took off and have turned out very healthy, so now it is
my standard mix for compots. The compots of course go outside with the
rest of the plants for the temperate weather, and in the intemperate
part of the year here in the frozen arctic (Ohio) they are in the warm
growroom with the vandas, bulbos and phals. it gets down to probably 65F
at night (actually day; the room is on an inverted schedule) in there,
maybe 60F, and the humidity probably runs at 50-60% (higher for a couple
days after watering). Daytime (for the plants, nighttime for me) temps
run into the low 80's.

A recent comparison: my compot of insigne v.sanderianum 'Gladiator' x
self and the flask a friend has. Both from the same flasking; mine
developed contamination shortly after I got it so I took the then 1"
plants out and compotted them. They seem healthy and show no sign of the
mold I cleaned off them, but they are still 1" high, while the ones
still in flask have grown in the intervening 4-5months to 2.5" high. So
I have an object lesson there about deflasking too early (which in this
couldn't be avoided).

In the mean time, would love to hear from others about your success and
obstacles to date. I have saved some of our earlier emails and have been
reading the info again wondering how everyone's game plan worked out-
especially in terms of survival rates in the first few months.

From what I have gathered and prepared from last year- seems I am covered
except on the matter of temperature. I am thinking of getting a small space
heater to run in the apartment right by the shelf to keep around an 80-85
degree range (my apartment runs 68 most of the time.) Any thoughts on that? Has
temperature been a big issue for any of you with these seedlings?



Mine are struggling. Perhaps that is due to temperature (running
55-65 in the winter). Split them up a few ways, and ended up with three
'mini-compots' (2.25" pots with 7 or 8 plants). Two of those compots
are still alive, although I haven't seen much growth. Had some issues
with watering enough early in their life, which I think set them back
quite a bit. Survival of the fittest.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Thanks for the feedback guys. I appreciate it and will print your emails to use
as I experiment.

Found a small space heater tonight so depending on feedback I get in that
thread, it may be the way to go for a heat source. Even in summer I keep this
place at 70 or so, hence the heater is going to be necessary it appears.

As for the things you all mentioned, three questions,

1. How did you keep humidity so high at 95%? This could be problematic in the
home although Houston is pretty humid.

2. One of you mentioned a compot mix that worked with bark, promix and sponge
rock. I was thinking along the lines of the bark and either promix or crushed
NZ sphag, but I have no idea what sponge rock is. Could you elaborate please?

3. Finally, I hear elsewhere other than in this thread that potting compots
with the agar intact is all the rage. My concern is about mold and fungus. Any
issues with this? I would think the agar would very quickly contaminate and put
the plants at risk, but for all the people who swear by this method there must
be something that is done to avoid contamination.

Thanks much!

Take care,

Tom.

Elpaninaro wrote:

Thanks for the feedback guys. I appreciate it and will print your emails to use
as I experiment.

Found a small space heater tonight so depending on feedback I get in that
thread, it may be the way to go for a heat source. Even in summer I keep this
place at 70 or so, hence the heater is going to be necessary it appears.

As for the things you all mentioned, three questions,

1. How did you keep humidity so high at 95%? This could be problematic in the
home although Houston is pretty humid.

2. One of you mentioned a compot mix that worked with bark, promix and sponge
rock. I was thinking along the lines of the bark and either promix or crushed
NZ sphag, but I have no idea what sponge rock is. Could you elaborate please?

3. Finally, I hear elsewhere other than in this thread that potting compots
with the agar intact is all the rage. My concern is about mold and fungus. Any
issues with this? I would think the agar would very quickly contaminate and put
the plants at risk, but for all the people who swear by this method there must
be something that is done to avoid contamination.

Thanks much!

Take care,

Tom.


Sponge rock is a larger form of perlite.

The agar poses no mold/fungus problem provided the plants come out of a
clean flask. It breaks down and waters out pretty quickly anyway.

I personally would be afraid to have 90% humidity. That would make me
afraid of mold and fungus!

Hi Tom,

Found a small space heater tonight so depending on feedback I get in that
thread, it may be the way to go for a heat source. Even in summer I keep
this
place at 70 or so, hence the heater is going to be necessary it appears.

I'd do bottom heat instead - get one of those seedling heating mats. I
think it's going to be hard to get local heat otherwise. So you're planning
to air condition your place in Houston then if you heat it up with a space
heater, it will be VERY dry. That's the technique that air conditioners use
to dry out the air...


As for the things you all mentioned, three questions,

1. How did you keep humidity so high at 95%? This could be problematic in
the
home although Houston is pretty humid.

I have mine inside a structure wrapped in plastic. Before that, I got two
large clear plastic bins - maybe 2' by 3' by 8" deep. Put one down, put the
pots in it maybe on some egg crate to keep them up a bit so you can leave
water in the bottom (easier to water, add humidity). Under the bin, put a
heating mat as I mentioned above (adds heat + humidity). Put the other bin
on top like a clamshell but crack it a bit. I used the rubber cork from a
flask I bought Then a fluorescent fixture above for light... Now when I
did this, I skipped the egg crate and set the pots right in the water.
Didn't keep the water deeper than 1/2 inch or so though and had Styrofoam
peanuts in the bottom half of all the compots and I let it dry out before I
watered again... all did very well - Catts, neos, vanda hybs, phrags.
Anyway, it will keep the temp and humidity up. Oh, the other thing I did
was had an oscillating fan blowing gently on the side with/ the cork
propping it open. Run the fan and heating mat 24x7, lights 12 - 16 hrs per
day.

2. One of you mentioned a compot mix that worked with bark, promix and
sponge
rock. I was thinking along the lines of the bark and either promix or
crushed
NZ sphag, but I have no idea what sponge rock is. Could you elaborate
please?

Sponge rock if not the same as is similar to larger chunks of perlite. I
use 4-5 parts fine bark to 1 part charcoal and 1 part perlite. Lately I've
been experimenting with CHC (Coconut Husk Chips) instead of bark, so far
it's a tossup but it's only been a month or so.

3. Finally, I hear elsewhere other than in this thread that potting
compots
with the agar intact is all the rage. My concern is about mold and fungus.
Any
issues with this? I would think the agar would very quickly contaminate
and put
the plants at risk, but for all the people who swear by this method there
must
be something that is done to avoid contamination.

Either cut a pot down (so it's half the height) or put peanuts in the bottom
1/2 or so. Fill it another 1/4 or so with your media. plop the plants down
in the middle, agar and all. fill in around the outside (between the plants
and the edge of the pot) with your media. As you water over the next few
weeks, the agar will dissolve away. Fill in a bit with your media if
necessary. I've done this several times and seen NO rot and the plants
don't even slow down - just keep right on growing. I know lots of others
including Antec do the same and have excellent results. We did it with our
compot of sanders from Sam.

Good luck!
Jerry

Xref: news7 rec.gardens.orchids:41836


"tennis" wrote in message
...
Elpaninaro wrote:

Thanks for the feedback guys. I appreciate it and will print your emails
to use
as I experiment.

Found a small space heater tonight so depending on feedback I get in that
thread, it may be the way to go for a heat source. Even in summer I keep
this
place at 70 or so, hence the heater is going to be necessary it appears.

As for the things you all mentioned, three questions,

1. How did you keep humidity so high at 95%? This could be problematic in
the
home although Houston is pretty humid.

2. One of you mentioned a compot mix that worked with bark, promix and
sponge
rock. I was thinking along the lines of the bark and either promix or
crushed
NZ sphag, but I have no idea what sponge rock is. Could you elaborate
please?

3. Finally, I hear elsewhere other than in this thread that potting
compots
with the agar intact is all the rage. My concern is about mold and
fungus. Any
issues with this? I would think the agar would very quickly contaminate
and put
the plants at risk, but for all the people who swear by this method there
must
be something that is done to avoid contamination.

Thanks much!

Take care,

Tom.


Sponge rock is a larger form of perlite.

The agar poses no mold/fungus problem provided the plants come out of a
clean flask. It breaks down and waters out pretty quickly anyway.

I personally would be afraid to have 90% humidity. That would make me
afraid of mold and fungus!

If you keep a stiff breeze blowing, the humidity can be in the 90% range,
otherwise, yes, you'll have problems. 70-80% is probably better.

After reading all these posts about Paph sanderianum it sounds like it's
impossible to grow?

I have some crosses with sanderianum in the heritage but no species of it.
I've been fixated on roths and never really looked at the sanderianums.

What makes this so challenging to grow?

Trying to learn more,
Gene

not sure, mine are growing along side all my other seedlings and doing just
fine. Growing slowly but that's what they do and maybe that's the problem?

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
hlink.net...
After reading all these posts about Paph sanderianum it sounds like it's
impossible to grow?

I have some crosses with sanderianum in the heritage but no species of it.
I've been fixated on roths and never really looked at the sanderianums.

What makes this so challenging to grow?

Trying to learn more,
Gene

Gene Schurg wrote:

After reading all these posts about Paph sanderianum it sounds like it's
impossible to grow?

I have some crosses with sanderianum in the heritage but no species of it.
I've been fixated on roths and never really looked at the sanderianums.

What makes this so challenging to grow?

Trying to learn more,
Gene

My experience when it comes to rare paphs (expensive) is that the growers don
not do any selection from their flaskes. When I unflask a flask, I tend to
keep the larger fast growing seedlings and dump the rest. When someone
unflasks a roth. or a sanderianum, I have a feeling that no seedlings are
thrown out. Some of those slow growers (RUNTS) are sold cheaply and end up
taking a year or two to die. I have seen many growers (including me) buy $50
sanderianum only to watch them sit there for a year or two then slowly die!
For now I think you better know who you buy from and be ready to pay good $$$
for a good "fast" growing sanderianum. Me, I think I'll wait another year or
two till the stock improves and the prices go down a bit. Remember when roths
used to sell for $10 an inch. A good seedling can now be had for under $50.

Happy Growing.

After reading all these posts about Paph sanderianum it sounds like it's
impossible to grow?

I have some crosses with sanderianum in the heritage but no species of it.
I've been fixated on roths and never really looked at the sanderianums.

What makes this so challenging to grow?

Trying to learn more,
Gene

Gene- From what I have been told here and elsewhere, sanderianum is not exactly
terribly difficult to grow.

But think about the obsession like this. When you pay $20 for a compot of
Phals, losing a few is no big deal. But when you spend $400 on a flask with 25
seedlings in it and pay for all the extra stuff to give the plants their due...

It is freaky. think of it like taking 5 small compots and put five $10 bills in
each pot. Now you have to make sure that 6 months from now all those $10 bills
are still there- because by then to replace them you will need $100 bills

I am not terribly intimidated by all this, rather I am thinking retention. I
fully intend to continue having my orchid hobby support itself, so out of a
flask of sanderianums I want to have enough to grow to maturity as well as 5-6
to sell in a couple of years to recoup my costs.

Tom.

I'd do bottom heat instead - get one of those seedling heating mats. I
think it's going to be hard to get local heat otherwise. So you're planning
to air condition your place in Houston then if you heat it up with a space
heater, it will be VERY dry.

Now this is why I love this newsgroup. Thanks to you and Gene and others who
have suggested this option. I never thought of it!

Thanks too for the sponge rock definition. Now I know what to go in search of.

Take care,

Tom.

Tom,

Now that I understand better that you want to keep a couple of compots warm
and humid I was thinking maybe you could invest in a 10 gallon aquarium.

I was thinking you could put small stones or egg crate on the bottom and
have some water in the bottom to keep the humidity high. A small clip on
fan would keep the air moving. Heat could be supplied by the heating mat.

If you did it right it wouldn't be too ugly either.

Gene




"Elpaninaro" wrote in message
...
I'd do bottom heat instead - get one of those seedling heating mats. I
think it's going to be hard to get local heat otherwise. So you're
planning
to air condition your place in Houston then if you heat it up with a
space
heater, it will be VERY dry.

Now this is why I love this newsgroup. Thanks to you and Gene and others
who
have suggested this option. I never thought of it!

Thanks too for the sponge rock definition. Now I know what to go in search
of.

Take care,

Tom.

Adel (Ed) Nazzal wrote:

My experience when it comes to rare paphs (expensive) is that the growers don
not do any selection from their flaskes. When I unflask a flask, I tend to
keep the larger fast growing seedlings and dump the rest. When someone
unflasks a roth. or a sanderianum, I have a feeling that no seedlings are
thrown out. Some of those slow growers (RUNTS) are sold cheaply and end up
taking a year or two to die. I have seen many growers (including me) buy $50
sanderianum only to watch them sit there for a year or two then slowly die!
For now I think you better know who you buy from and be ready to pay good $$$
for a good "fast" growing sanderianum. Me, I think I'll wait another year or
two till the stock improves and the prices go down a bit. Remember when roths
used to sell for $10 an inch. A good seedling can now be had for under $50.

Happy Growing.




That's an interesting point. While compotting for a friend, he basically
said, just let the runts go, the trash is the best place for them. My
problem with this is (and no matter what anyone says, it's all about the
flower) it may be that runt that has the best or largest flower, the
right color, the ability to bloom on only one growth, etc. How many of
us grow Paph.Delrosi knowing we may NEVER see the flower just because
it's so beautiful when it DOES bloom? (mine is sill a 'large seedling'
as it was 8 or 9 years ago when I bought it) Remember: there was only
ONE yellow Phrag.besseae! And my holy grail, Paph.Castle Rising
'Superbum'; Dr.Wilson (Penn Valley) said it was a poor grower, never
more than one or two growths; he 'thinks' Arnie Klehm got it in the
sale, and if that's the case it died in the fire/freeze (though Arnie
has yet to answer the question of whether he got it after several years
of my asking). I keep hoping someone turns up with the division
Dr.Wilson said he thinks he 'may' have made. Bad grower, but the
flower..........ah!!! (anyone gat a color pic?? it was int he Pann
Valley catalog in the 80's - which I of course threw away)

That said, as we move on down the years line-breeding should, if past
experience with other species is any guide, produce hardier, easier to
grow and faster-growing and blooming plants. I have a
Paph.rothschildianum which bloomed as a one growth seedling. How many of
these have we heard of in the past? It's not unheard of now, but 20
years ago, impossible!

I find encouragement in the fact that (I measured this time) 2 of the
seedlings from this flask of sanderianum had 8" leafspans. How many
years closer to maturity is THAT??

So, shall we all keep in touch and share pics in 10, no, eight, no,
maybe six years (dare we hope)???