When I replaced my old Modine heater, I bought a Reznor separated-combustion
unit, and highly recommend it. My heating costs went down about 40% due to
newer burner technology, and none of the heat and humidity gets sucked out
with the combustion products.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Wendy wrote:

Ok, I am getting serious now! Curious about the steam for heating?
Would you use electricity to heat the water?


Hot water underbench (or in floor) heat is what I would like. It
has been used successfully even up here in the 'tundra'. Far easer to
implement than steam. Electricity is what I have on site. I heat the
house with oil, but this would be too far from the house for that. I'll
probably need a separate tank of fuel for the greenhouse, either lp or
natural gas, depending on what works best. Cheaper than electricity,
and since I need a separate tank anyway, probably not too big a hassle.

I often wonder what the guys use in snowbound winters.?


Typically gas or propane. It can get a little expensive. One
commercial grower (with several acres under glass) quoted me 20,000 per
month for his heating bills in the winter. I'm not sure if that was a
single greenhouse or all of them. They were huge, drafty glass
greenhouses, so who knows. The things we do for orchids.

However you will probably save money if you have been using indoor lights
no?


No... Of course I would _keep_ the indoor setup. Come on, that is
precious space for plants! *grin* Actually I'll probably convert that
into a very cool room for plants I can't grow right now.

This must be so exciting for you Rob, I remember the feeling well.
Good luck


Thanks! I'm thinking about posting some drawings and musings to my
website when I get that far. I have several months to procrastinate.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Ted Byers wrote:


Now wait a minute Rob. Aren't you more than a thousand miles from the
nearest tundra? ;-) I'd be surprised if Michigan got much colder than
central Ontario. Neither of us tries to cram spring, summer and fall into
July and August, as happens in Churchill which, IIRC, has the tundra nearest
to you.

No, but Wendy thought it was cold up here. I think it is pretty
pleasant. Think London, ON as a suitable meteorological substitute.
Actually I'm in USDA zone 5 (well, maybe 4.5). We think it is pretty
warm here compared to much of the northern US, and we do have two very
big heat sinks to either side (Lake Michigan and Huron). Of course it
is a bit cloudy for most of the winter, which doesn't help.

Had a friend who's husband went to one of the Artic islands
(Victoria?) in June to do some work on stabilizing fuel for winter. To
repeat, in June. I guess winter starts in late July up there. Sheesh.

One of the things I'd look at is the potential for passive heating as a
supplementary source of heat. A certain amount of heat will enter the
greenhouse, and if you have rain barrels, full of water painted black, and
sitting in the sun, they will absorb a certain amount of energy. The other
thing I'd look at is the potential for using a wood burning stove. I know
my sister and her family save a bundle using one to heat their home. I
would suppose that similar potential exists for heating a greenhouse.


I have trouble keeping enough wood split for indoors... But it
might be an interesting solution as a backup heater in the greenhouse.
That is why we have a woodstove inside the house, and it comes in darn
handy when the power is out (like last Thursday), or the furnace conks
out (all last spring). I'm planning on spending several extra dollars
to maximize solar gain, including water barrels and insulating the
foundation. Every penny spent in construction comes back as dollars on
the heating bill. I'm also dreaming a bit about a solar electrical
backup system (a few panels and a battery bank, to be expanded as funds
permit). It seems a shame to waste all those photons that fall on the
barn roof.

Wife thinks this is cheaper than a tractor... Hah!! I tricked her
by asking for the cheapest thing first.

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Ray wrote:

Rob,

According to the manufacturing data I received about a year ago, the
R-values a

6-mil polyethylene 1.15
6-mil polyethylene double layer, inflated 0.70
Glass 1.13
"Fiberglass" or corrugated polycarbonate 1.20
Multiwall polycarbonate 4 mm 0.70
6 mm 0.65
8 mm 0.62
16 mm 0.40



Isn't R value better the higher it is? Seems like this is on an
inverse scale. Anyway, according to this 16mm multiwall polycarbonate
is the best. Am I reading that right? If twin/triple wall is as good
or better than inflated poly, it seems like a no brainer in terms of my
construction skills - panels are easier for my intended design. I had
always assumed inflated poly was the best for insulation.

Thanks for the info.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Sorry, the R-value is 1/those, so lower is better. I think they're called
U-values (???)

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Ray wrote:

Rob,

According to the manufacturing data I received about a year ago, the
R-values a

6-mil polyethylene 1.15
6-mil polyethylene double layer, inflated 0.70
Glass 1.13
"Fiberglass" or corrugated polycarbonate 1.20
Multiwall polycarbonate 4 mm 0.70
6 mm 0.65
8 mm 0.62
16 mm 0.40



Isn't R value better the higher it is? Seems like this is on an
inverse scale. Anyway, according to this 16mm multiwall polycarbonate
is the best. Am I reading that right? If twin/triple wall is as good
or better than inflated poly, it seems like a no brainer in terms of my
construction skills - panels are easier for my intended design. I had
always assumed inflated poly was the best for insulation.

Thanks for the info.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:41:34 -0500, Rob Halgren
wrote:
One of the things I'd look at is the potential for passive heating as a
supplementary source of heat. A certain amount of heat will enter the
greenhouse, and if you have rain barrels, full of water painted black, and
sitting in the sun, they will absorb a certain amount of energy. The other
thing I'd look at is the potential for using a wood burning stove. I know
my sister and her family save a bundle using one to heat their home. I
would suppose that similar potential exists for heating a greenhouse.

When we built - being from Chicago we dug down to the house
footings and put it in 1/2 a story below ground. The outside
dirt is the height of what Wendy would call a pony wall. The
inside benches are at that level and I have steps so I can see
and reach the back third of the bench.

We have about 6' of cobbles under the gh covered with gravel the
size they do drives and landscape with. Then when the whole
works sunk about 12 years in we put a board walk of 2x4's on edge
covered with 2x4's as planking. It almost gives me enough height
to reach the back of the bench.. almost.

The best thing about all that rock. It collects and holds the
water when I water, it provides a humidity pump when it gets warm
and it releases heat all night long. We run N-S along the West
side of the house (backyard). So it is not the best exposure in
the world. But it works. Also using hot water heat because we
could extend a line from the house. Hot water heat is common in
Colo. We cut our heating bills drastically just by changing the
N and S end caps to twin wall. The twin wall was only as thick
as the glass it replaced. We have a 20 year old Lord and Burnhum
(not spelled correctly) Metal frame single sheet of glass. We
were going to use the plastic insulation - never got to it. And
could not figure out how to get to the top. It is easy to set up
a scaffolding inside and build the thing. Horrid to try to
repair the vent or even clean the top glass.

So - 1/2 story in the ground is great equalizer on temp.
Twin wall is great to cut heating costs
Thick Rock floor makes water reservoir and thermal mass.

Ask for the fans for Christmas. She will not think so much about
the cost and they will not be part of next summer's bills.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Ted Byers wrote:


Now wait a minute Rob. Aren't you more than a thousand miles from the
nearest tundra? ;-) I'd be surprised if Michigan got much colder than
central Ontario. Neither of us tries to cram spring, summer and fall
into
July and August, as happens in Churchill which, IIRC, has the tundra
nearest
to you.

No, but Wendy thought it was cold up here. I think it is pretty
pleasant. Think London, ON as a suitable meteorological substitute.
Actually I'm in USDA zone 5 (well, maybe 4.5). We think it is pretty
warm here compared to much of the northern US, and we do have two very
big heat sinks to either side (Lake Michigan and Huron). Of course it
is a bit cloudy for most of the winter, which doesn't help.

Yup. We're USDA zone 5 here, perhaps near the boundary between USDA zone 5
and USDA zone 4, about a two hour drive to the northeast of London, most of
southern Ontario is USDA zone 5 or warmer. There are remnants of Carolinian
forest as far north as London. This forest is made up of trees that are
common in the Carolinas! I'd agree it is quite pleasant here. I'm not sure
about London, though, as it seems to get more freezing rain than most parts
of southern Ontario. I couldn't begin to explain why.

You could say we share a mild temperate climate.

Had a friend who's husband went to one of the Artic islands
(Victoria?) in June to do some work on stabilizing fuel for winter. To
repeat, in June. I guess winter starts in late July up there. Sheesh.

Well, not quite. Winter that far north would start in late August and end
in early July, and summer would not really happen, unless what would be a
cool spring day here counts as summer. ;-) But there is some interesting
ecology up there, both on the tundra and in the water. The marine
environment up there is especially rich!

One of the things I'd look at is the potential for passive heating as a
supplementary source of heat. A certain amount of heat will enter the
greenhouse, and if you have rain barrels, full of water painted black,
and
sitting in the sun, they will absorb a certain amount of energy. The
other
thing I'd look at is the potential for using a wood burning stove. I
know
my sister and her family save a bundle using one to heat their home. I
would suppose that similar potential exists for heating a greenhouse.


I have trouble keeping enough wood split for indoors... But it
might be an interesting solution as a backup heater in the greenhouse.
That is why we have a woodstove inside the house, and it comes in darn
handy when the power is out (like last Thursday), or the furnace conks
out (all last spring). I'm planning on spending several extra dollars
to maximize solar gain, including water barrels and insulating the
foundation. Every penny spent in construction comes back as dollars on
the heating bill. I'm also dreaming a bit about a solar electrical
backup system (a few panels and a battery bank, to be expanded as funds
permit). It seems a shame to waste all those photons that fall on the
barn roof.

Hah!! A man after my own heart. :-) I am very interested in solar
energy too. And wind energy! And Susan's idea of building it half
underground is a great one too. Earth is a great insulator and heat sink.
The annual variation in temperature decreases considerably as one goes
deeper, and below about one metre, or so, at our latitude, it is quite
modest and at no time does temperature at that depth get close to freezing.

Here is yet another idea to consider. In thinking about using water to help
with passive heating, it occured to me that there are few materials that
have as high a heat capacity as does water, and at our latitude and with our
winters, humidity is often a problem, so why not kill three birds with one
stone and put in in-ground swimming pool underneath the greenhouse? It
might be costly to put in, but, for the family it provides some recreation,
the air above it is likely to be close to 100%RH amost all of the time, and
you'd have a massive heat sink. But you also have an advantage in that,
with your knowledge of biology, you could set it up so that the use of
chemicals could be avoided. You could, for example, have a sandy bottom,
and maintain some cyprinids and clams. The clams are filter feeders and
will keep algae from reaching problematic densities. There are some carp
that do the same, except that they're not as effective as clams (but then,
some clams need fish to serve as a host for their larvae). And, you'd have
a great indoor environment for a potentially amazing water garden. The
principle limitation would be the cost of figuring out how best to suspend
the plants in the greenhouse, and how to have a transparent walkway, in such
a way as to get as much light into the water as possible (while not
restricting air flow from the surface of the water to the top of the
greenhouse, perhaps aided with fans), and how to do it all in such a way as
to make it a pleasant environment for recreation. There remains, of course,
the question of whether or not this last idea is cost effective, but I'll
worry about that after I figure out how to do it. I am sure a little
creative thought would end in a relatively inexpensive way to do it. Maybe
not as inexpensive to build as other options, but perhaps much cheaper in
terms of operating expenses. I am reminded of two of the pools at the
athletic centre at the U. of T. There, on the west side of the building are
a couple swimming pools under glass, and the pools are a good two to three
metres below ground level while the glass rose to several metres above
ground. That room was always humid. All that was missing was a means to
suspend plants and a means to get at them. I'm sure, though, that they did
that to create a pleasant, bright environment for various competitions, rath
er than for the sake of energy efficiency or a desire to create a humid
environment.

Wife thinks this is cheaper than a tractor... Hah!! I tricked her
by asking for the cheapest thing first.

Now that is probably something I would not have put in writing! ;-) After
all, somebody might send it by email to her, or if she is curious about how
you spend your time on the web, she might do a search on your name and find
it that way. If she does, you might be sharing accomodation with your
favourite pet for a while. ;-) You do have a dog, don't you? ;-) It
would be bad if she sent you to the dog house and you didn't have one to go
to. ;-) And somehow I don't think practicing our convenient hearing would
work. ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Rob Halgren wrote in message ...
If twin/triple wall is as good
or better than inflated poly, it seems like a no brainer in terms of my
construction skills - panels are easier for my intended design.

You could do both if you are using a frame of 2x4's: triple-wall on
the outside of the frame and then a layer of poly or cheap plastic
sheeting stapled to the inside of the frame. That would give you a
1.5" dead air space approximating inflated poly, plus the R-value of
the triple wall polycarbonate.

Unfortunately, I didn't think of that when I was building, and I ran
my electrical conduit along the inside of the frame. Since the
conduit makes the plastic sheeting impractical, I use a layer of
bubble wrap directly against the twin-wall. The bubble wrap goes up
in autumn and comes down in spring, and it really makes a difference.
I also used "reflectix" insulation (basically bubble wrap sandwiched
between two layers of foil) on the north wall. It insulates and
reflects light.

Nick
--
myrmecodia-at-yahoo-dot-com

Robe wrote:-
Wife thinks this is cheaper than a tractor... Hah!! I tricked her
by asking for the cheapest thing first.

(((LOL)))
--
Cheers Wendy
Remove PETERPAN for email reply

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:37:05 -0500, "Ted Byers"
wrote:
Clipped----------------------------------------- a lot.
Ted Byers wrote:
Here is yet another idea to consider. In thinking about using water to help
with passive heating, it occured to me that there are few materials that
have as high a heat capacity as does water, and at our latitude and with our
winters, humidity is often a problem, so why not kill three birds with one
stone and put in in-ground swimming pool underneath the greenhouse?
Cheers,

Ted

Ted -
One of the fellows who used to grow orchids in a little Colorado
town out NE, had an in ground pool attached to the house. The
pool house became his first gh. Soon outgrown. It is sort of
like trying to tame the jungle so you can have a patio in the
middle. He had wires and hooks and chains to hang baskets or
pots out over the water. He also attached a good sized gh and
had and RO system 17+ years ago.

I wonder what happened to his hobby.


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Hah!! A man after my own heart. :-) I am very interested in solar
energy too. And wind energy! And Susan's idea of building it half
underground is a great one too. Earth is a great insulator and heat sink.
The annual variation in temperature decreases considerably as one goes
deeper, and below about one metre, or so, at our latitude, it is quite
modest and at no time does temperature at that depth get close to freezing.



Yes, that is a great idea. I don't know if I have the energy to dig
_quite_ that deep. I was thinking of sinking the final floor a foot or
two, at least. Commercial growers I have talked to warned me against
setting it too deep. What you gain in thermal efficiency, you lose in
light. For me, that isn't a bad thing, my chosen orchids are pretty low
light (paphs and phrags, mainly). If you are a vanda grower in the
north, dirt walls might not be such a good option. But if you are a
vanda specialist in the northern tier, it might be cheaper to move south...

Here is yet another idea to consider. In thinking about using water to help
with passive heating, it occured to me that there are few materials that
have as high a heat capacity as does water, and at our latitude and with our
winters, humidity is often a problem, so why not kill three birds with one
stone and put in in-ground swimming pool underneath the greenhouse? It


At one point I was considering a lap pool, but that was more of a
daydream than an actual consideration. But it wouldn't be that hard to
manage, and you could have a moveable 'boardwalk' that lives under the
bench, just pull it out when you need to access the plants, roll it back
under the bench when you are done. Swimming pool isn't high on my list,
but a water feature of some sort is a pretty good idea. Water is good
thermal mass. Per weight, I think rocks are better. But big rocks have
big air spaces between. Per volume, water might be better.



Now that is probably something I would not have put in writing! ;-) After
all, somebody might send it by email to her, or if she is curious about how
you spend your time on the web, she might do a search on your name and find
it that way. If she does, you might be sharing accomodation with your
favourite pet for a while. ;-) You do have a dog, don't you? ;-) It
would be bad if she sent you to the dog house and you didn't have one to go
to. ;-) And somehow I don't think practicing our convenient hearing would
work. ;-)


Two cats, and they live in the house. I'm safe... Or I can sleep
in the barn, I guess. Or sleep in the barn while I build a nice
doghouse. *grin*

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Rob Halgren writes:
Yes, that is a great idea. I don't know if I have the energy to dig
_quite_ that deep. I was thinking of sinking the final floor a foot or
two, at least. Commercial growers I have talked to warned me against

Just remember that cold air is heavier than warm air, and will
accumulate in "bumps" in the terrain. Or in your greenhouse.

Geir

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:39:13 -0500, Rob Halgren
wrote:
Hah!! A man after my own heart. :-) I am very interested in solar
energy too. And wind energy! And Susan's idea of building it half
underground is a great one too. Earth is a great insulator and heat sink.
Yes, that is a great idea. I don't know if I have the energy to dig
_quite_ that deep. I was thinking of sinking the final floor a foot or
two, at least. Commercial growers I have talked to warned me against
setting it too deep. What you gain in thermal efficiency, you lose in
light. For me, that isn't a bad thing, my chosen orchids are pretty low
light (paphs and phrags, mainly). If you are a vanda grower in the
north, dirt walls might not be such a good option. But if you are a
vanda specialist in the northern tier, it might be cheaper to move south...
Rob

Use solar to prewarm your water if your going to use any type of
electric heat.
Why do you need full sun on the under bench areas? Our bench is
probably set about 8" under the glass height. Then the step
shelves were set on top. I don't grow under the bench and the
opposite wall has a lower shelf height. I grow Catts and Ascda
hanging overhead. With the drop down we have almost two stories
of head room, as the roof attaches at the eves.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

And remember to keep all the brochures for the various items in a folder.
Things fail, wear out, rust out and break. Trying to remember 5 years later
whether the thermostat you bought from Grainger's was an 'open on rise' or
'close on rise' is a real pain. Directions for reprogramming timers, a
seemingly easy task, can be maddening if you forget just one *little* step.
Manufacturer's phone numbers or addresses are also at hand should you want
to buy more of their product (like twinwall for an addition)

Sure this advice isn't as sexy as trying to decide whether to berm the
greenhouse or not, but in the long run it'll save whatever hair you have
left.

K Barrett
Rule #1 There's always room for one more folder...

And remember to keep all the brochures for the various items in a folder.
Things fail, wear out, rust out and break. Trying to remember 5 years later
whether the thermostat you bought from Grainger's was an 'open on rise' or
'close on rise' is a real pain. Directions for reprogramming timers, a
seemingly easy task, can be maddening if you forget just one *little* step.
Manufacturer's phone numbers or addresses are also at hand should you want
to buy more of their product (like twinwall for an addition)

Sure this advice isn't as sexy as trying to decide whether to berm the
greenhouse or not, but in the long run it'll save whatever hair you have
left.

K Barrett
Rule #1 There's always room for one more folder...

And remember to keep all the brochures for the various items in a folder.
Things fail, wear out, rust out and break. Trying to remember 5 years later
whether the thermostat you bought from Grainger's was an 'open on rise' or
'close on rise' is a real pain. Directions for reprogramming timers, a
seemingly easy task, can be maddening if you forget just one *little* step.
Manufacturer's phone numbers or addresses are also at hand should you want
to buy more of their product (like twinwall for an addition)

Sure this advice isn't as sexy as trying to decide whether to berm the
greenhouse or not, but in the long run it'll save whatever hair you have
left.

K Barrett
Rule #1 There's always room for one more folder...